Daenerys Targaryen is a better leader than Jon Snow.

[Craving Peaches]

11 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

When has Jon ever shown to be great at fighting?  In his training exercises with his peers?  That's about it.  Jon threw a flaming cloth at a wight, he ambushed a Wildling scouting camp in stealth, he fought Qhorin Halfhand in which Qhorin intentionally let Jon defeat him, and he had partial command in the Battle of the Wall by dropping oil, shooting arrows, etc. etc.  That's about it.  Sam has been involved in more fighting than Jon has.

I don't think that's true. Jon is not a master fighter but he has definitely been involved in more fights than Sam if I recall correctly. And there was the time where  he beat Iron Emmet, who was  was supposed to be the best fighter at Eastwatch-By-The-Sea or something. I think you might be underrating Jon a bit here.

[astarkchoice]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't think that's true. Jon is not a master fighter but he has definitely been involved in more fights than Sam if I recall correctly. And there was the time where  he beat Iron Emmet, who was  was supposed to be the best fighter at Eastwatch-By-The-Sea or something. I think you might be underrating Jon a bit here.

To be fair he beat iron emmet once , supposedly most times emmet would best him and the one time hes winning he goes nuts on poor emmet whos shouted already that he yields!!

[StarkTullies]

13 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't think that's true. Jon is not a master fighter but he has definitely been involved in more fights than Sam if I recall correctly. And there was the time where  he beat Iron Emmet, who was  was supposed to be the best fighter at Eastwatch-By-The-Sea or something. I think you might be underrating Jon a bit here.

I meant actual combat fights.  He showed he has skills with the new recruits, and later Emmet, etc., but I don't consider those actual fights.  Sam was in the battle at the Fist, which is more combat than Jon has ever seen.

Not intending to underrate Jon.  I'm not going to talk about the "alternate version" of Jon in this part of the forum... but I feel like the claim of Jon being a "good fighter" is based on a source other than the books.  Jon is not likely to rise in power at the Wall from being good in training while not proving himself in combat at all.  Even killing the wight was about his intelligence of throwing fire at it... not "fighting" it.  Jon became commander for reasons other than his fighting skills, while supposed fighting skills is about the only thing his alternate version had.

[JonSnow4President]

30 minutes ago, StarkTullies said:

I meant actual combat fights.  He showed he has skills with the new recruits, and later Emmet, etc., but I don't consider those actual fights.  Sam was in the battle at the Fist, which is more combat than Jon has ever seen.

 

So, the war correspondent who witnessed everything but didn't fight outside a panicked stab in the back has more experience than the person who fought off the Southern raid, and commanded the wall for days against the Northern attack?  

I do agree with you that he was selected for more than combat ability.  Specifically, it was some part as a result of his Stark blood (less, I think), and some part as a result of his argument to Maester Aemon for passing Sam through training (more, I think). But he is clearly at least a competent fighter.  Competent enough that his win over Qhorin wasn't suspect. 

[Darth Sidious]

On 5/8/2023 at 7:22 AM, Sandy Clegg said:

Controversial opinion maybe but I’d say Jon and Dany are kind of equal. 

Dany is the better ruler. She is a lot smarter than Jon. She controls her emotions better. 

[Craving Peaches]

8 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

Sam was in the battle at the Fist, which is more combat than Jon has ever seen.

Yes, but Sam wasn't really fighting in that, was he? The only fights Sam is in is where he stabs the Other with the Dragonglass and punches Dareon. Jon meanwhile fights the Wight, and fights multiple Wildlings when defending the Wall. So I don't think it is correct to say that Sam has more experience than Jon.

[Daeron the Daring]

I think it's stupid to compare Sam to Jon. They had different interests growing up, and it's clear that Jon had a training and Sam did not. There's not much else to discuss here, the confrontations Sam faced weren't really about fighting prowess, but rather bravery. Or purely survival instincts. And even if they were, it would not make Sam a good fighter. Definitely not better than Jon.

That being said, Jon isn't really someone who would be famed for his fighting skills, but is definitely not casual or bad.

[BlackLightning]

On 5/8/2023 at 4:23 AM, Craving Peaches said:

One city she ruled over sacked with the majority of its male population dead. The other is so plagued with dysentery that people would rather die in battle than stay there. And this is the person you think is going to be able to rule multiple continents. I don't think we are reading the same book.

I don't think you can say that Astapor is completely her fault

Neither is the dysentery plague

On 5/8/2023 at 6:22 AM, Sandy Clegg said:

Controversial opinion maybe but I’d say Jon and Dany are kind of equal. 

How sad is that...

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, BlackLightning said:

I don't think you can say that Astapor is completely her fault

It kind of is though. She failed to give the Council she left any means to defend itself or the city. Daenerys assumed responsibility for free Astapor and then failed it. Now, it may have fallen anyway even if she did leave a garrison, but at least the city would have remained slave free for longer and creation of new Unsullied would have been avoided.

2 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Neither is the dysentery plague

It's not her fault it started but she doesn't seem to have done much to contain the spread, especially since she left on Drogon...

[csuszka1948]

On 5/3/2023 at 6:41 AM, Craving Peaches said:

Bowen Marsh failed the Watch and Westeros. Not Jon. Jon was trying to defend Westeros and was succeeding until Marsh stabbed him.

 

It's a bit ridiculous that you try to put the blame for Jon's leadership failures on someone else*, while you put the blame for Dany's rulership failures on Dany. 

In truth, both of them were reasonably good considering their age and the situation they were in, it's not like reforming society is easy, just Dany was too erratic and Jon too temperamental.

 

*because Bowen Marsh didn't have any reason to believe that Jon Snow is dooming the NW with his actions of marching with the wildlings to Winterfell (that's what Jon's announced plan was, even if not the real one) and sending the NW on a Second Great Ranging (after the catastrophe of the first) to Hardhome to save wildlings who cannot be fed (at least according to the information Bowen has), not at all

[BlackLightning]

5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

It kind of is though. She failed to give the Council she left any means to defend itself or the city. Daenerys assumed responsibility for free Astapor and then failed it. Now, it may have fallen anyway even if she did leave a garrison, but at least the city would have remained slave free for longer and creation of new Unsullied would have been avoided.

Maybe I'm reading something wrong then because what I understood from the books was that the Council had the ability to conscript surviving men into an army.

And yes, the city would have failed even if she had left a garrison because Cleon (the one guy who is fully responsible) would've slaughtered or mismanaged the garrison to hell and back.

The only thing that could've saved Astapor is if Dany left Meereen 

10 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

It's not her fault it started but she doesn't seem to have done much to contain the spread, especially since she left on Drogon...

Yea you're right she didn't do too much. She did quarantine the sick and the exposed away from the healthy and she did bury the dead and deliver food. But I don't really fault her for that because I can't think of anyone in the series who could do a better job than she did.

But I don't fault her for leaving on Drogon. She wanted (and tried) to go back.

[BlackLightning]

2 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

It's a bit ridiculous that you try to put the blame for Jon's leadership failures on someone else*, while you put the blame for Dany's rulership failures on Dany. 

In truth, both of them were reasonably good considering their age and the situation they were in, it's not like reforming society is easy, just Dany was too erratic and Jon too temperamental.

 

*because Bowen Marsh didn't have any reason to believe that Jon Snow is dooming the NW with his actions of marching with the wildlings to Winterfell (that's what Jon's announced plan was, even if not the real one) and sending the NW on a Second Great Ranging (after the catastrophe of the first) to Hardhome to save wildlings who cannot be fed (at least according to the information Bowen has), not at all

The problem isn't that Dany is too erratic. Dany's problem is that she worries too much and she is too nice.

For the record, I do think that Jon Snow would've done a better job than Dany in Meereen. Not that much better but better enough is better still.

 

But now that you brought it up, let's talk about Jon's decision to send the NW on another great ranging to Hardhome. Was that a good idea? Everyone from Selyse to Melisandre to Bowen Marsh all said it was a terrible idea. Because Dany had a similar situation pop up (i.e. Astapor) and she ultimately refused to get involved.

[csuszka1948]

15 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

The problem isn't that Dany is too erratic. Dany's problem is that she worries too much and she is too nice.

For the record, I do think that Jon Snow would've done a better job than Dany in Meereen. Not that much better but better enough is better still.

 

 

 

 

 

Well, she at the very least looks erratic from the outside.

She killed every master in Astapor, only asked for the end of slavery in Yunkai and nailed 163 masters in Meereen while leaving the wealth of the rest of them intact, but then sought to negotiate with them and abandoned his Astapori allies.

 

It's difficult to say what would Jon do in Dany's place.

15 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

 

But now that you brought it up, let's talk about Jon's decision to send the NW on another great ranging to Hardhome. Was that a good idea? Everyone from Selyse to Melisandre to Bowen Marsh all said it was a terrible idea. Because Dany had a similar situation pop up (i.e. Astapor) and she ultimately refused to get involved.

 

 

 

 

 

Hardhome is a huge gamble that may have paid off. I think it's worth it if the Others cannot cross the Wall by themselves (which I think is true), but otherwise I am not sure due the Wall's defense multiplier factor. 

 

The main problem is twofold:

1) Jon didn't seem to inform Bowen about the loans from the Iron Bank, without which it's impossible to feed the rescued wildlings long term

2)Jon is not even leading the ranging himself, instead sending Tormund and the NW in his stead, while he goes on his own private (and outwardly selfish) mission to confront Ramsay. This makes him look very-very badly as a NW Commander. 

Edited May 10, 2023 by csuszka1948

[Craving Peaches]

25 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Maybe I'm reading something wrong then because what I understood from the books was that the Council had the ability to conscript surviving men into an army.

A load of them went with Daenerys? She should have given the Council something to defend itself with. It was a mistake. If she had done that Astapor wouldn't have been in such a bad situation. Someone like Cleon would never come to power if that Council had been able to defend itself.

26 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

She did quarantine the sick and the exposed away from the healthy and she did bury the dead and deliver food.

If she did this then why is it running rampant through Meereen? I understand no quarantine would be totally effective but what Daenerys did do appears to have done absolutely nothing to halt the spread of the disease...

[csuszka1948]

I understand why is Jon better liked though:

1) His storyline is more connected to Westeros and has arguably a better supporting cast

2) One of Jon's main problems is his communication skill. From his head we better understand his reasoning and symphatise with him, but from the outside his last act seems outright tyrannical.

 

Anyway, that's George's opinion on the matter and I think this applies to ASOIAF as a whole:

"With great power comes great responsibility, Stan Lee once wrote. Spidey's credo articulates the basic premise of every superhero universe, including ours. But Lord Acton wrote that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The tension between those two truths is where the drama comes in.

My own heroes are the dreamers, those men and women who tried to make the world a better place than when they found it, whether in small ways or great ones. Some succeeded, some failed, most had mixed results... but it is the effort that's heroic, as I see it. Win or lose, I admire those who fight the good fight."

Edited May 10, 2023 by csuszka1948

[BlackLightning]

3 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

1) His storyline is more connected to Westeros and has arguably a better supporting cast

No. Nope. Not at all.

Daenerys has a much better supporting cast than Jon and it's not even close. Part of the reason why that we know that they are a more developed, interesting supporting cast is because Daenerys actually talks to them.

I know, what a revolutionary idea.

21 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

She killed every master in Astapor, only asked for the end of slavery in Yunkai and nailed 163 masters in Meereen while leaving the wealth of the rest of them intact, but then sought to negotiate with them and abandoned his Astapori allies.

That's not erratic. The opposite of erratic is consistent and Daenerys has been consistently humanitarian since the back half of A Game of Thrones and consistently anti-slave since A Storm of Swords.

Dany's problem is that she is indecisive because she is worrisome.

Astapori allies? Lol what Astapori allies did she have to abandon? She left a ruling council to rule...and they would've been fine in time if Cleon hadn't killed them all.

16 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

A load of them went with Daenerys? She should have given the Council something to defend itself with. It was a mistake. If she had done that Astapor wouldn't have been in such a bad situation. Someone like Cleon would never come to power if that Council had been able to defend itself.

I thought all the Astapori (except for the Unsullied, their trainees and the support staff) stayed in Astapor until after the plague had already started ravaging the city.

Maybe I've misread. 

18 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

If she did this then why is it running rampant through Meereen?

Weren't the slavers outside the city flinging diseased corpses and waste into the city on catapaults?

[Craving Peaches]

28 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Weren't the slavers outside the city flinging diseased corpses and waste into the city on catapaults?

When did this happen? A sample chapter?

28 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I thought all the Astapori (except for the Unsullied, their trainees and the support staff) stayed in Astapor until after the plague had already started ravaging the city.

I don't think Astapor is ravaged by a plague...

[StarkTullies]

23 hours ago, JonSnow4President said:

So, the war correspondent who witnessed everything but didn't fight outside a panicked stab in the back has more experience than the person who fought off the Southern raid, and commanded the wall for days against the Northern attack?  

3 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I think it's stupid to compare Sam to Jon.

16 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes, but Sam wasn't really fighting in that, was he? The only fights Sam is in is where he stabs the Other with the Dragonglass and punches Dareon. Jon meanwhile fights the Wight, and fights multiple Wildlings when defending the Wall. So I don't think it is correct to say that Sam has more experience than Jon.

Yep, it was stupid to bring Sam into this.  I was just saying that Sam has "seen more combat" (meaning, been in the midst of an actual battle) than Jon, because Sam has seen very little... but Jon has seen even less.  The siege against the Wall (from the north) was about tactics rather than direct combat.  Though one battle that Jon was in the middle of (that I wasn't thinking of before) was when Stannis captured Mance Rayder.  Even then, Jon didn't fight in it (he had no weapon).

I was really reacting to an anti-Jon poster throwing Jon a bone by saying "Jon was pretty good at fighting", and I was just stating that Jon hasn't actually clashed swords in open combat... and that I am fairly certain the "pretty good at fighting" was coming from a source other than the books.

So, sorry for the tangent.

[Craving Peaches]

5 minutes ago, StarkTullies said:

I am fairly certain the "pretty good at fighting" was coming from a source other than the books.

I find it so hard to tell when people make statements like that if it is coming from their interpretation of the books or another source. Jon does have that weird black-out moment where he then hammers his opponent so potentially if he can figure out how to harness that he could do well fighting.

[Angel Eyes]

4 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

The problem isn't that Dany is too erratic. Dany's problem is that she worries too much and she is too nice.

For the record, I do think that Jon Snow would've done a better job than Dany in Meereen. Not that much better but better enough is better still.

Being too nice seems to be a thing in the books.

• Ned plays nice with Cersei and she gets him arrested and exiled; similarly he trusts Littlefinger who has everything to gain from getting Ned killed or disgraced
• Robb plays nice with Balon and Roose by sending Theon back to negotiate (the former) and trusting the latter with command; both repay him by invading the North and whittling down Robb's troops
• Daenerys saves Mirri Maz Duur, who leaves Khal Drogo catatonic and kills Daenerys' unborn child.
• Jon's attempts to save "Arya" lead to him getting stabbed.