Daenerys Targaryen is a better leader than Jon Snow.

[sifth]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That has nothing to do with her rule. She didn't conquer the place, she just sacked it. It is like saying the Ironborn are responsible for the coastal regions they raid. Not Dany's problem if the people cannot properly rule themselves.

I mean the Iron Born are scum. So if your comparing what she did to Astapor to their actions, is not putting Dany in a very bright light.

[Lord Varys]

10 minutes ago, sifth said:

I mean the Iron Born are scum. So if your comparing what she did to Astapor to their actions, is not putting Dany in a very bright light.

She was doing a sack there, and not taking over the rule of the city. So that Astapor suffered later is the fault of the morons who remained behind. Remember that lots of freed slaves, etc. had the chance to join her - like Missandei did. The bulk of the folks who suffered in Astapor are slaver scum and former slaves like Cleon who thought they were better off on their own.

Daenerys Targaryen owed them nothing ... but she still feels guilty about abandoning them in ADwD.

Her goal was never to rule Slaver's Bay, so if you judge her there judge her as a raider, as the general of an army marching through and living off the land, taking what she wants and needs ... and by that standard she was very successful, even more so when dealing with Yunkai and then Meereen. Part of the reason her rule of Meereen doesn't work well is because she switches policies in the middle of the campaign, turning from a raider to conqueror and and ruler.

But even that only becomes a problem because she wants to be nice and peaceful, doesn't what to antagonize the slaver scum further.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, James Arryn said:

My 3 year old twins play this game where one shouts “Blue is better!” and the other one acts exasperated and says “No, Pink is better!” And they laugh, and go back and forth, each acting more and more fed up with the other’s refusal to see the obvious.

 

The difference between them, the 3 year old twins, and this Jon vs. Dany stuff is that the 3 year olds actually get how its ridiculousness is what makes it fun and funny. To the point where they sometimes go meta and both protest that blue is better while pretending to tear out their hair when the other emphatically says they’re wrong and then declares their agreement on blue. 

I agree w/ the gist of your statement but it leaves out an important point imo. It doesn’t really matter whether someone prefers pink or blue - although only crazy people will prefer blue over pink! It’s all good and we all have our faves, some even like purple!

The actual problem is when people try to debate that pink *is* blue despite the fact that it very clearly and obviously isn’t, and proceed to use bad faith faux arguments to defend their ‘opinions’. Just my 2p worth. 

[sifth]

27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

She was doing a sack there, and not taking over the rule of the city. So that Astapor suffered later is the fault of the morons who remained behind. Remember that lots of freed slaves, etc. had the chance to join her - like Missandei did. The bulk of the folks who suffered in Astapor are slaver scum and former slaves like Cleon who thought they were better off on their own.

Daenerys Targaryen owed them nothing ... but she still feels guilty about abandoning them in ADwD.

Her goal was never to rule Slaver's Bay, so if you judge her there judge her as a raider, as the general of an army marching through and living off the land, taking what she wants and needs ... and by that standard she was very successful, even more so when dealing with Yunkai and then Meereen. Part of the reason her rule of Meereen doesn't work well is because she switches policies in the middle of the campaign, turning from a raider to conqueror and and ruler.

But even that only becomes a problem because she wants to be nice and peaceful, doesn't what to antagonize the slaver scum further.

Yet she’s shocked when her kangaroo government she created for Astapor failed. I mean it’s one of the main reasons she chooses to stay in Meereen. 

Edited May 29, 2023 by sifth

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, sifth said:

Yet she’s shocked when her kangaroo government she created for Astapor failed. I mean it’s one of the main reasons she chooses to stay in Meereen. 

Why shouldn't she be shocked if former slaves end up wanting to restore the old slavers to power?

[Daeron the Daring]

2 hours ago, James Arryn said:

My 3 year old twins play this game where one shouts “Blue is better!” and the other one acts exasperated and says “No, Pink is better!” And they laugh, and go back and forth, each acting more and more fed up with the other’s refusal to see the obvious.

It ain't like adult people don't do the same. I would bring up how football ultras/fans work, vot I don't have to dig that deep, because most people nowadays root for politicians and parties the way only football fans should support their own team: Blindly, and always.

There isn't a difference between that and what we (quite) often have here, I'd say it's even more of a  chaotic nonsense, because the two are not opposing sides, and will most likely have a deeply intertwined and cooperative story together, once they meet up. Or at least they're meant to, we might not live long enough to see that.

[csuszka1948]

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes he does, but that doesn't negate what Daenerys did, so I think it is incorrect to say that Daenerys has more self control than Jon given they both lash out. Also, he didn't just attack Ramsay in hot blood, he takes some time to mull over the decision given he appears to discuss it with Tormund first before making his decision. He doesn't just read the letter and then instantly run off to fight...

Daenerys left the council in Astapor with nothing to defend themselves. Cleon and the associated events are a result of her naivety/lack of foresight. 

I am not trying to make out Daenerys to be worse than she is, but I don't think it is correct to suggest that she has more self control/foresight than Jon. They are both similar in this regard in my view.

 

Yes, they are similar, that's what I wanted to point out.

Although I would say that lack of foresight is a bigger problem in case of Dany and lack of self control for Jon.

[sifth]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Why shouldn't she be shocked if former slaves end up wanting to restore the old slavers to power?

Hey, you’re making me think Dany will probably be evil in the end, with every post you make. You’re making her sound like Light from Death Note. Who cares if she kills thousands or even millions since they’re all wink wink “bad people”. 

[Lord Varys]

13 minutes ago, sifth said:

Hey, you’re making me think Dany will probably be evil in the end, with every post you make. You’re making her sound like Light from Death Note. Who cares if she kills thousands or even millions since they’re all wink wink “bad people”. 

Again, it ain't her job to be the babysitter of the Astapori. Next people blame the French or British or American for Hitler because, you know, they didn't occupy and properly take care of Germany back after World War I.

[Fist of the Dragon]

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon is not really dumb, but he is an unwilling and thus incompetent leader. The guy wins the election by a landslide and is then assassinated by one of his closest associates shortly thereafter. He failed to inspire loyalty in his own men. Which means failed as a leader in a very spectacular fashion. He wasn't assassinated by some outsider lunatic, but by the guy who was effectively his second-in-command.

Dany's mistakes are not even remotely in the same league. In ADwD her only mistake is her desire for peace - not the way she communicates or interacts with her own people. Her weakness is her own desire, not the way she communicates it. Unlike Jon, she always had the means and assets to triumph - she just chose not to use them. She also doesn't surround herself with advisors whose opinions she knows in advance and whose input she ignores.

Whenever she did use them in the past she showed a striking understanding of power and strategy. She also makes lonely decisions, at times, but hers are instinctively the right decisions.

Jon shows that he is an anti-intellectual with little imagination in ADwD, unfortunately. I wanted to scream at the asshole when he reveals he literally didn't listen to Sam's historical lecture. Being a leader doesn't fit with 'I want to be a super swordsman and train in the yard hours each day, pretending I also work as master-at-arms'. You get the vibe that he is Jaehaerys to Dany's Alysanne - she got the brains while he is much more conventional.

Dany clearly has an intuitive understanding of languages. She might not be formally educated but she is smart as hell. Jon was portrayed as smarter and deeper than Robb back in the day ... but somehow that wasn't exactly transferred well (or at all) to ADwD.

Incompetent leader? I disagree. Even deserving leaders fail.
The issue is clear:
The bastard Ned Stark, as the 998th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, will soon face the greatest threat to humanity, and at the same time, the Wildlings want to cross the wall at any cost, and he knows that he must unite them somehow. Or witness that they will constantly attack the Night's Watch (or at least meet them in the form of Wights in the future).
On the other hand, the usurper rebel, Stannis Baratheon is present in the wall and has his own expectations and demands.
But wait, it's not over yet, because in the meantime, Jon Snow's oaths must be kept, otherwise he will be an ambitious oath breaker.
Well, it is clear that the situation is such that no Lord Commander can imagine worse than it even in his dreams.
But how does Jon deal with these issues:
He knows that his priority is to face others. Protecting the territory from this superhuman disaster is considered the most important part of his oaths (ask me for my opinion, other oaths are not so important in such unnatural conditions)
So he must unite the Wildlings first, even though he knows that many of his brothers, led by Bowen Marsh, will oppose him. He almost succeeds in this. The fact that each of the wildlings leaders swears to him in his own way while crossing the wall shows that he has enough respect among them. which makes him the best leader to lead them to Battle for the Dawn. He divides the Wildlings and uses them. )
He then makes a deal with Stannis. He doesn't take her back publicly, but he knows that this is a gamble and a risk, but he is the only decent person who cares about the threats on the other side of the wall.
So getting his satisfaction is of diplomatic importance for Jon. He gains more than he loses. With his effective advice to Stannis (which proves his uncanny intelligence), he maintains the independence of the Wall and keeps the Wildlings that Stannis wanted to take with him to the south.
As much as he can, he uses Stannis' soldiers to be stationed in other castles. He also does his best to provide the necessary provisions for the Night's Watch, either through the Wildlings' valuables or by borrowing from the iron bank.
So in the first place (comparing to others) he is not an unworthy leader and who will do better than him right now?
But did John fail? Yes! As much as he gained respect from Stannis and Wildlings, he also increased the hatred of his brothers towards him, and he either ignored or avoided this issue, which ultimately led to his death at the end of A Dance with Dragons. He should have known that he is the key to the union of the Night's Watch and the Wildlings, which is very important. Unfortunately, as you mentioned, this leads to the disloyalty of the men of the Watch to him, so that he alienates even those who are loyal to him. He could not have the necessary foresight among his people regarding his decisions. Although his advisers are not very capable (for example, Bowen Marsh is enough with his cardboard intelligence)
Anyway, his story has similarities with Abraham Lincoln. His death serves a purpose for Martin and teaches Jon many lessons.

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:

Although I would say that lack of foresight is a bigger problem in case of Dany and lack of self control for Jon.

That is true. I forgot Jon had that weird moment where he blacked out and had some sort of bezerker rage. But overall I think they are really quiet similar so I don't think you can say Daenerys is better than Jon as a blanket statement like that. There are some tasks she would be more suited for and some Jon would be more suited for but overall I don't get why people think Daenerys is leagues better based on what we've seen.

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Fist of the Dragon said:

Incompetent leader? I disagree. Even deserving leaders fail.

Last I looked Abe Lincoln wasn't murdered by his Vice President. Any leader who suffers that fate was incompetent as hell - first for not foreseeing this, second for antagonizing a close colleague like that.

A genuine seer literally tells Jon Snow in his first chapter in ADwD that the men closest to him plot his death. And he literally does nothing. He doesn't watch them, doesn't investigate this thing, doesn't take precautions to protect himself better. He is a moron. And what makes it worse is that both his own policies as well as his communication strategy causes Bowen Marsh and company to move against him.

And now he is dead. And only magic will get him back into the game.

[Craving Peaches]

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

A genuine seer literally tells Jon Snow in his first chapter in ADwD that the men closest to him plot his death. And he literally does nothing.

Melisandre being a 'genuine seer' doesn't mean much when discussing leadership abilities because Jon has no idea she is as she has not proven it to him. It's not like Jon was given undeniable proof and still chose to ignore it. He was cautiously sceptical of Melisandre's claims because she had not given Jon much cause to believe they were reliable. And given she mucked up the Arya prediction why should Jon blindly trust everything she says? I really don't think this is a mark against him, that he didn't trust someone who claimed to be able to see the future but already botched one prediction.

And anyway he does do something. He executes Slynt and separates the troublemakers like Thorne so they can't plot. He has bodyguards.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Melisandre being a 'genuine seer' doesn't mean much when discussing leadership abilities because Jon has no idea she is as she has not proven it to him. It's not like Jon was given undeniable proof and still chose to ignore it. He was cautiously sceptical of Melisandre's claims because she had not given Jon much cause to believe they were reliable. And given she mucked up the Arya prediction why should Jon blindly trust everything she says? I really don't think this is a mark against him, that he didn't trust someone who claimed to be able to see the future but already botched one prediction.

LOL, sorry, he sees the woman gave Stannis a magical sword that glows, he knows she burned eagle Orell somehow, and she disguised fucking Mance Rayder as Rattleshirt. She also messes with his connection to Ghost somehow. He has no justification not to trust that she is the real deal. And if he had doubts he could ask Stannis about her earlier predictions, could approach some of Stannis' men for information about her, etc. He accompanies her up to the wall and sees how unnaturally hot and steamy her body is. He knows she is not a normal woman but a supernatural sorceress. He also happens to be a stupid ass when he 'blames' Mel for Alys Karstark. She told him about a vision she had - how the hell can Jon expect that some girl on a dying horse is fucking Arya Stark, a girl Mel never actually met??? Alys showing up proves Mel had a genuine vision of a girl on a dying horse - they both misinterpreted it. He shows his stupidity by reacting like a stubborn child there - 'I want my prophecies to be exactly the way you said, I don't care that you only see images without name tags attached!'

Now, skulls circling around you is also not completely clear ... but there is nothing wrong taking proper precautions. Interpreting it as death threats is the best take on that want - better safe than sorry, right?

6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

And anyway he does do something. He executes Slynt and separates the troublemakers like Thorne so they can't plot. He has bodyguards.

Slynt was never a prophesied danger to him, not being a guy that was close to him. Thorne neither. Jon never considered that the men who killed him would or could kill him. Also no sign that his move against Slynt or Thorne had anything to do with the Mel prophecy about the skulls. He completely ignores or forgets this.

Jon's bodyguards abandoned him or might even turn out to have helped kill him. There is no indication that those guys are actually loyal to him.

[csuszka1948]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

That is true. I forgot Jon had that weird moment where he blacked out and had some sort of bezerker rage. But overall I think they are really quiet similar so I don't think you can say Daenerys is better than Jon as a blanket statement like that. There are some tasks she would be more suited for and some Jon would be more suited for but overall I don't get why people think Daenerys is leagues better based on what we've seen.

 

I wouldn't say that Dany is leagues better. Jon is actually better at long-term planning*, but also more prone to making big impulsive mistakes. 

[csuszka1948]

Just now, Lord Varys said:

LOL, sorry, he sees the woman gave Stannis a magical sword that glows, he knows she burned eagle Orell somehow, and she disguised fucking Mance Rayder as Rattleshirt. She also messes with his connection to Ghost somehow. He has no justification not to trust that she is the real deal. And if he had doubts he could ask Stannis about her earlier predictions, could approach some of Stannis' men for information about her, etc. He accompanies her up to the wall and sees how unnaturally hot and steamy her body is. He knows she is not a normal woman but a supernatural sorceress. He also happens to be a stupid ass when he 'blames' Mel for Alys Karstark. She told him about a vision she had - how the hell can Jon expect that some girl on a dying horse is fucking Arya Stark, a girl Mel never actually met??? Alys showing up proves Mel had a genuine vision of a girl on a dying horse - they both misinterpreted it. He shows his stupidity by reacting like a stubborn child there - 'I want my prophecies to be exactly the way you said, I don't care that you only see images without name tags attached!'

Now, skulls circling around you is also not completely clear ... but there is nothing wrong taking proper precautions. Interpreting it as death threats is the best take on that want - better safe than sorry, right?

Slynt was never a prophesied danger to him, not being a guy that was close to him. Thorne neither. Jon never considered that the men who killed him would or could kill him. Also no sign that his move against Slynt or Thorne had anything to do with the Mel prophecy about the skulls. He completely ignores or forgets this.

Jon's bodyguards abandoned him or might even turn out to have helped kill him. There is no indication that those guys are actually loyal to him.

 

I don't think it's a good idea to become obsesses with prophecies and becoming paranoid. That's the road that leads to becoming Cersei.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, csuszka1948 said:

I don't think it's a good idea to become obsesses with prophecies and becoming paranoid. That's the road that leads to becoming Cersei.

LOL, no, that kind of thing may have led to Jon Snow's birth. This is a magical world, where magic and prophecies are real things. They shape and form reality. People who ignore that do it at their own peril. People arguing against magic in this world are like creationists or flat-earth morons.

4 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

I wouldn't say that Dany is leagues better. Jon is actually better at long-term planning*, but also more prone to making big impulsive mistakes. 

Jon doesn't do any long-term planning in ADwD. He makes spontaneous and impulsive decisions, very much like Daenerys ... but without communicating what he does. He jumps on the chance Tycho Nestoris' arrival gives him ... but he doesn't reach out to the Iron Bank or anyone else who might give him money by himself. He doesn't think and figure out that the wildlings are people, too, he needs to have his experience at the godswood beyond the Wall. Stannis tells him that he has to man the other castles or he, Stannis, will take them and do it himself. The Hardhome mission is also a spur of the moment idea, caused by reports he receives.

Jon is a good analyst of other people's problems - the advice he gives Stannis is very good. But he still acts as an outsider, a watcher who wants to be Robb but knows he can never be. He doesn't see himself as a leader, a lord, a potential king.

Dany understood what she was, what she had to be very shortly after Viserys' death. But Jon rightfully doesn't think he has the right to play 'Lord Stark', so he cannot do what he would have to do to be a good ruler.

[The Gizzard of Oz]

Me, I would choose Dany to rule and make decisions as far as governing.  The problem in Mereen are the resistance shown by slave masters who would like nothing better than a return to their vile business.  No one should expect a world changing revolution to happen without difficulties.  Dany will soon have the means to end the slavers once and for all.  Jon was not really any good at ruling the wall.  He's crude, rude, and would better fit in with the free folk. 

[BlackLightning]

I see this thread is still going on strong...

 

Listen, the key thing here is that they need each other. But I do, overall, think that Jon needed Dany more at the Wall more than she needed his help in Meereen.

The problems that Dany had to deal with in Dance were much bigger issues. I don't think that there was any one person in the series who - if they had access to all of what Dany had at the time - could've really solved those problems. It's going to take a team of people to rectify both the Meereen situation and the larger macrocosmic issue of slavery in Essos. That's why the Dothraki are coming back now and why Jorah, Tyrion, Victarion, Moqorro, Marwyn, the Tattered Prince, Quaithe and perhaps even Arya and the Faceless Men are all converging on her.

The problems that Jon had to deal with in Dance were much more "bite-sized" if you will. Jon's problem was a distinct lack of good PR.

[Craving Peaches]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, sorry, he sees the woman gave Stannis a magical sword that glows

Which Aemon says is a fake...

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

he knows she burned eagle Orell somehow, and she disguised fucking Mance Rayder as Rattleshirt. She also messes with his connection to Ghost somehow. He has no justification not to trust that she is the real deal

How does that prove she is a 'genuine seer'? It doesn't. None of that is evidence of her prophetic abilities.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

lames' Mel for Alys Karstark. She told him about a vision she had - how the hell can Jon expect that some girl on a dying horse is fucking Arya Stark, a girl Mel never actually met??? Alys showing up proves Mel had a genuine vision of a girl on a dying horse - they both misinterpreted it. He shows his stupidity by reacting like a stubborn child there - 'I want my prophecies to be exactly the way you said, I don't care that you only see images without name tags attached

He can expect it to be Arya stark because Melisandre, the 'genuine seer', said so??? It looks like you are blaming Jon more than Melisandre here for the vision being wrong which is silly. It was Melisandre who told him it was Arya. If Melisandre only told Jon the image and Jon reacted that way you might have a point but she didn't. From Jon's point of view Melisandre messed up a prediction already so why should he trust her other ones?

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no indication that those guys are actually loyal to him.

There is no indication they aren't loyal either.