Daenerys Targaryen is a better leader than Jon Snow.

[csuszka1948]

Just now, SeanF said:

Sympathetic though he is, one can also condemn Robb for a lot of the harm that was caused.  There's a reason why the author included the parts about young women being hanged from trees, the BWB comparing Wolves with Lions, and the West being "paid back in kind" for what the Lannisters did in the Riverlands.

I think that the order at Astapor is actually wilfully misinterpreted, even sometimes described as "genocide".

I think also, because the story is overwhelmingly told from royal and noble points of view, it's easy to buy into the mindset that elite lives matter more.  The victims in TWOT5K are overwhelmingly, anonymous peasants.  Daenerys' victims are mostly part of an educated, articulate elite, who aren't backward about coming forward with their grievances, and criticisms of her rule.  Conversely, we only occasionally get the viewpoints of slaves and freedmen, who are actually the large majority of the population in Slavers Bay.

To my mind, massacres of the peasants are actually worse than anything that Daenerys does, because they completely lack agency, unlike the nobility.  If a slaver deserves to be spared because he knows no better (and IMHO these people are sadistic even by slaver standards) how much more does a peasant deserve to be spared being put to the sword by the dynasts' soldiers?

 

 

 

Yes, I agree with your main point.

The reason why Dany is much more sympathetic in my eyes than other noble leaders (other than Jon and arguably Stannis at times) is that she is not fighting a war and destroying countless people to sit her ass on a Throne or take vengeance and achieve 'independence' (a concept nobles care much more about than smallfolk).

It's interesting how much of a dislike the community had for Dany after the release of ADWD, though.

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

Yes, I agree with your main point.

The reason why Dany is much more sympathetic in my eyes than other noble leaders (other than Jon and arguably Stannis at times) is that she is not fighting a war and destroying countless people to sit her ass on a Throne or take vengeance and achieve 'independence' (a concept nobles care much more about than smallfolk).

It's interesting how much of a dislike the community had for Dany after the release of ADWD, though.

Dany's story in ADWD could have been told in half as many words, that's the problem.  Her tale only really comes to life, at Daznak's Pit.

That said, people like Kelsey Hayes give the impression that Daenerys wronged them personally.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

5 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

Yes, I agree with your main point.

The reason why Dany is much more sympathetic in my eyes than other noble leaders (other than Jon and arguably Stannis at times) is that she is not fighting a war and destroying countless people to sit her ass on a Throne or take vengeance and achieve 'independence' (a concept nobles care much more about than smallfolk).

It's interesting how much of a dislike the community had for Dany after the release of ADWD, though.

Robb wasn’t fighting specifically for his throne. The throne is a byproduct of independence.

[csuszka1948]

Just now, SeanF said:

Dany's story in ADWD could have been told in half as many words, that's the problem.  Her tale only really comes to life, at Daznak's Pit.

That said, people like Kelsey Hayes give the impression that Daenerys wronged them personally.

 

I think that many things that people call Dany's 'rulership flaws' are actually GRRM's flaws. For example saying that Dany should have introduced some law codex or delegated court to other people... that's just not the sort of thing GRRM cares about, he writes about rulers making the big decisions themselves.

[SeanF]

14 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

I think that many things that people call Dany's 'rulership flaws' are actually GRRM's flaws. For example saying that Dany should have introduced some law codex or delegated court to other people... that's just not the sort of thing GRRM cares about, he writes about rulers making the big decisions themselves.

Sure.  Due process is shown as existing nowhere in this world.  That's not actually realistic, but it's what the author chose to write.

[LongRider]

18 minutes ago, SeanF said:

That said, people like Kelsey Hayes give the impression that Daenerys wronged them personally.

Interesting comment, as I have seen the same for other characters; Jon, Sansa, and the Hound for example.  I'm not a fan of Dany but hate her?  I feel for her like I do for Arya, like the character, hate their current arcs.  

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I think that the order at Astapor is actually wilfully misinterpreted, even sometimes described as "genocide".

The issue is, all we have to go on with regards to who was killed is Daenerys' one quote:

Quote

Slay the Good Masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who wears a tokar or holds a whip, but harm no child under twelve

• Slay the Good Masters
• Slay the soldiers
• Slay every man who wears a tokar
• Slay every man who holds a whip (so any overseers)
• Harm no child under twelve

Most of it seems relatively straight forward, assuming the Unsullied are passably accurate with judging age. The tokar part is the issue:

• Does man mean men only or humans in general? Both men and women wear tokars
• Who exactly is wearing Tokars? A lot of people seem to think it is only the elite who aren't working, and this matches the way the garment functions, and all the characters we see wearing one match this, however it is also stated that (any) Ghiscari freeborn can wear one... And a reading would suggest it wasn't 'just' the Masters, because Daenerys does not only say, 'kill the Good Masters, but to kill 'every man who wears a tokar' (And 'men' in the context of the quote below should mean humans, not just males, because we see females wearing tokars too)

Quote

All wrapped themselves in tokars, a garment permitted only to freeborn men of Astapor.

• So was it only the Masters who were wearing the Tokar or were other lower-ranking freeborn Ghiscari in Astapor also wearing them? If so, more than just the 'elite' slavers would have died.
• Enough people wear Tokars that it is not the garment alone which serves as a status symbol, there are different 'ranks' within the Tokar wearers as indicated by the fringe

Quote

It was the fringe on the tokar that proclaimed a man's status, Dany had been told by Captain Groleo.

So at the greatest extent you potentially have all the freeborn population of Astapor over twelve being killed (e.g. Adult Astapori culture as a whole) plus any overseers and soldiers (who may be there unwillingly and wouldn't necessarily be Astarpori, they may themselves be slaves), while at its narrowest you only have male 'elite' slavers over twelve (so all the non-female Masters and their over twelve year old relatives) plus any overseers and soldiers. Based on the fact, however, that wearing a tokar means you can afford to not do any labour at all (so own plenty of slaves), I would put the total more towards the latter. I doubt free Astapori tradesmen would be wearing a tokar and so they would not be killed. Also, there were enough people left in Astapor for many of them to starve later, have a civil war, fight Yunkai etc. Astapor only really seems to have become very depopulated after Cleon and co. Regardless of the size of the 'purge', it is likely that some 'innocent' victims were caught up in it, for example a thirteen-year-old tokar-wearer who had never personally done anything wrong to the slaves.

When reading the passage, I did get the impression that, while obviously her intentions were coming from a good place, perhaps Daenerys got caught up a little in the excitement of things, and maybe was not entirely thinking through the exact consequences of her orders (e.g. killing of unwilling (slave) overseers and soldiers). However it is also a pretty standard sacking in-world, so it is not like it makes Daenerys worse than her contemporaries.

Also, the real suffering of the people in Astapor was not a result of the decision to purge, but by the council left lacking means to defend itself properly, which is a bigger 'leadership flaw' in my eyes for Daenerys than the somewhat-hastily given orders on who to kill. Killing the slavers should have resulted in average quality of life in Astapor going up.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[SeanF]

33 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The issue is, all we have to go on with regards to who was killed is Daenerys' one quote:

• Slay the Good Masters
• Slay the soldiers
• Slay every man who wears a tokar
• Slay every man who holds a whip (so any overseers)
• Harm no child under twelve

Most of it seems relatively straight forward, assuming the Unsullied are passably accurate with judging age. The tokar part is the issue:

• Does man mean men only or humans in general? Both men and women wear tokars
• Who exactly is wearing Tokars? A lot of people seem to think it is only the elite who aren't working, and this matches the way the garment functions, and all the characters we see wearing one match this, however it is also stated that (any) Ghiscari freeborn can wear one... And a reading would suggest it wasn't 'just' the Masters, because Daenerys does not only say, 'kill the Good Masters, but to kill 'every man who wears a tokar' (And 'men' in the context of the quote below should mean humans, not just males, because we see females wearing tokars too)

• So was it only the Masters who were wearing the Tokar or were other lower-ranking freeborn Ghiscari in Astapor also wearing them? If so, more than just the 'elite' slavers would have died.
• Enough people wear Tokars that it is not the garment alone which serves as a status symbol, there are different 'ranks' within the Tokar wearers as indicated by the fringe

So at the greatest extent you potentially have all the freeborn population of Astapor over twelve being killed (e.g. Adult Astapori culture as a whole) plus any overseers and soldiers (who may be there unwillingly and wouldn't necessarily be Astarpori, they may themselves be slaves), while at its narrowest you only have male 'elite' slavers over twelve (so all the non-female Masters and their over twelve year old relatives) plus any overseers and soldiers. Based on the fact, however, that wearing a tokar means you can afford to not do any labour at all (so own plenty of slaves), I would put the total more towards the latter. I doubt free Astapori tradesmen would be wearing a tokar and so they would not be killed. Also, there were enough people left in Astapor for many of them to starve later, have a civil war, fight Yunkai etc. Astapor only really seems to have become very depopulated after Cleon and co. Regardless of the size of the 'purge', it is likely that some 'innocent' victims were caught up in it, for example a thirteen-year-old tokar-wearer who had never personally done anything wrong to the slaves.

When reading the passage, I did get the impression that, while obviously her intentions were coming from a good place, perhaps Daenerys got caught up a little in the excitement of things, and maybe was not entirely thinking through the exact consequences of her orders (e.g. killing of unwilling (slave) overseers and soldiers). However it is also a pretty standard sacking in-world, so it is not like it makes Daenerys worse than her contemporaries.

Also, the real suffering of the people in Astapor was not a result of the decision to purge, but by the council left lacking means to defend itself properly, which is a bigger 'leadership flaw' in my eyes for Daenerys than the somewhat-hastily given orders on who to kill. Killing the slavers should have resulted in average quality of life in Astapor going up.

While the tokar is only permitted to the "freeborn" (so not to freedmen) there are other indicators that we aren't talking about tradesmen or artisans.

It's later mentioned as the "garment of the Old Blood", and a garment "for those who did not need to work."  It's similar to the toga virilis of Rome, a garment that was certainly not worn outside of the elite (any citizen who wished to vote had to don one, but voting was an elite activity among the citizens).  There are grades of tokars, just as there were grades of togas (Senators had a broad purple stripe, knights a narrow one, the non-noble rich wore plain white).

I'd see it as like wearing a £1,500 hand-made suit.  In theory, anyone can wear one.  In practice only a small number do. 

The distinction between Good Masters and other tokar wearers would be that the former are right at the top, the latter, the "gently-born".  People like lesser landowners, managers, accountants, notaries, bankers, ship-builders etc.  People who are still heavily implicated in slaving, and obtaining boys to be turned into Unsullied. 

Man I take simply to mean man, although some women might well have been cut down.

As for soldiers and overseers, some of them may well be freedmen and slaves, but they are armed and they are capable of fighting back.  It safest to slay them.  

And, without question, among all of those groups there are teenagers, because teenagers work and fight in this world.

Quite likely, there are people who died who did not deserve to die, but dwarfed by the number of those who were freed, who did not deserve to be enslaved.  There is no fight, in which innocents don't die.

 

 

Edited June 1, 2023 by SeanF

[Lord Varys]

No trouble killing every guy wearing a tokar (not that we have confirmation that this actually happened as the council guys Dany puts in charge later try to restore the Good Masters - which means that even some of them survived) as these people are all direct or indirect profiteers of slavery and the slave trade.

Even if there were tokar wearers who didn't own any slaves themselves (very unlikely in light of what the garment represents) they would still live in a society where they would profit and be involved in the slave trade directly or indirectly.

It is like with slavery in the US. Nothing wrong with killing a white man there back then. Even if they are not masters themselves, they feel like masters, they profit from the fact directly and indirectly that they can shit and piss on black slaves, can feel better for the fact that they are not slaves, etc.

They are all guilty to a point as they are part of a fundamentally injust, broken, and corrupt system.

You see that even today when 'white trash' scum jerks off on the fact that they are, at least, white. Part of the 'ruling race'. It is quite disgusting.

The tokar in Slaver's Bay is pretty much what white skin is in the US (back then). The signifier of the master (race/class).

[JonSnow4President]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

No trouble killing every guy wearing a tokar (not that we have confirmation that this actually happened as the council guys Dany puts in charge later try to restore the Good Masters - which means that even some of them survived) as these people are all direct or indirect profiteers of slavery and the slave trade.

I haven't actually read the books for years, but isn't that only an allegation brought forth by Cleon, a man who is trying to seize power for himself? 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

It is like with slavery in the US. Nothing wrong with killing a white man there back then. Even if they are not masters themselves, they feel like masters, they profit from the fact directly and indirectly that they can shit and piss on black slaves, can feel better for the fact that they are not slaves, etc.

 

[illrede]

For a quick and dirty rule of thumb, it is very clean. As a rule of thumb, it was a good one. Impromptu foreign putsch carried out with a clearly stated sentence, done before sunset. There may not have been a better way to take Astapor.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, JonSnow4President said:

I haven't actually read the books for years, but isn't that only an allegation brought forth by Cleon, a man who is trying to seize power for himself?

Like it is just a command by Daenerys to kill some people - we don't know if and to what degree it happened. Stop treating things as if folks actually murdered people left and right there. The Unsullied aren't butchers but completely obedient to commands, and there were essentially no Dothraki warriors among Dany's people. So if the sack of Astapor was bloody then mostly due to violence of freed non-Unsullied slaves against their former masters - and that's totally justified. Also, of course, violence of the Unsullied against their former masters.

But we do have later reports about Cleon's regime stating that the guy restored slavery - only with the former slaves as the masters and the former slavers as the slaves. That, too, can only work if there were still former slavers left. So the notion that the old Astapori elite is gone is clearly wrong. How silly such an assumption is you can also draw from the fact that the Meereenese elite survived the conquest of the place. There was a real battle there, lots of fighting, etc. and yet the ruling class suffered but a mild bloodletting, retaining essentially all their property.

The readers tend to view Cleon in the dark colors, but he was apparently pretty loved by his people (they ended up using his corpse as a symbol), so chances are pretty good that he indeed saved the freed slaves from a restoration of the Good Masters.

[SeanF]

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No trouble killing every guy wearing a tokar (not that we have confirmation that this actually happened as the council guys Dany puts in charge later try to restore the Good Masters - which means that even some of them survived) as these people are all direct or indirect profiteers of slavery and the slave trade.

Even if there were tokar wearers who didn't own any slaves themselves (very unlikely in light of what the garment represents) they would still live in a society where they would profit and be involved in the slave trade directly or indirectly.

It is like with slavery in the US. Nothing wrong with killing a white man there back then. Even if they are not masters themselves, they feel like masters, they profit from the fact directly and indirectly that they can shit and piss on black slaves, can feel better for the fact that they are not slaves, etc.

They are all guilty to a point as they are part of a fundamentally injust, broken, and corrupt system.

You see that even today when 'white trash' scum jerks off on the fact that they are, at least, white. Part of the 'ruling race'. It is quite disgusting.

The tokar in Slaver's Bay is pretty much what white skin is in the US (back then). The signifier of the master (race/class).

I wouldn't go that far.  But, I'm satisfied that "tokar wearers" are part of the master class, and actively involved in oppressing the slaves.

[Quoth the raven,]

On 6/1/2023 at 10:44 AM, csuszka1948 said:

Yes, I agree with your main point.

The reason why Dany is much more sympathetic in my eyes than other noble leaders (other than Jon and arguably Stannis at times) is that she is not fighting a war and destroying countless people to sit her ass on a Throne or take vengeance and achieve 'independence' (a concept nobles care much more about than smallfolk).

It's interesting how much of a dislike the community had for Dany after the release of ADWD, though.

I would risk a bet that those who did were fans of Jon Snow.  Their boy, you see, failed and was killed by his own men.  Daenerys will succeed in Meereen and then onto to Westeros to save what's left and rule from her father's throne. 

[csuszka1948]

30 minutes ago, Quoth the raven, said:

I would risk a bet that those who did were fans of Jon Snow.  Their boy, you see, failed and was killed by his own men.  Daenerys will succeed in Meereen and then onto to Westeros to save what's left and rule from her father's throne. 

 

I don't dislike Dany, but this definitely won't happen.

[Craving Peaches]

8 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Daenerys will succeed in Meereen

So far she has failed in Meereen given she abandoned the city after her 'pet' killed people and now everyone is dying of dysentery. Not to mention the mess that is Astapor. Daenerys will hopefully improve but those two episodes don't exactly fill me with confidence for her ability to lead in Westeros.

[SeanF]

8 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

So far she has failed in Meereen given she abandoned the city after her 'pet' killed people and now everyone is dying of dysentery. Not to mention the mess that is Astapor. Daenerys will hopefully improve but those two episodes don't exactly fill me with confidence for her ability to lead in Westeros.

It seems to me that flying Drogon out of the Pit was a lot more courageous, and saved a lot more lives, than just running for the exits with the rest.  

[Craving Peaches]

40 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It seems to me that flying Drogon out of the Pit was a lot more courageous, and saved a lot more lives, than just running for the exits with the rest.  

Yes it was brave to us readers, but to the people of Meereen, it looks like she either abandoned them or was killed. It is not a great show of leadership abilities. She also didn't really 'fly' Drogon out of the pit in terms of riding him like a horse. Drogon went where he wanted to go. Daenerys did not really have any input there.

[SeanF]

10 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes it was brave to us readers, but to the people of Meereen, it looks like she either abandoned them or was killed. It is not a great show of leadership abilities. She also didn't really 'fly' Drogon out of the pit in terms of riding him like a horse. Drogon went where he wanted to go. Daenerys did not really have any input there.

Running for the exit would have looked much worse.  It would have made her seem a coward. And the carnage would have been far worse.

Either Drogon would have been killed (to the delight of the slavers) or he’d have flown away.  Either way the death toll would have been worse, and she’d have been humiliated.

She had to face Drogon down.  He came quite close to killing her.   It still seems to me to have been the only sensible course of action, at that point.

Edited June 7, 2023 by SeanF

[Craving Peaches]

9 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Running for the exit would have looked much worse.  It would have made her seem a coward.

Yes it was the worst option. But flying away on Drogon doesn't look great either. The best option would have been to face Drogon down, but then not climb on him and disappear.

9 minutes ago, SeanF said:

And the carnage would have been far worse.

Hard to say for sure as Drogon may have flown away without Daenerys getting on his back. It is clear from Daenerys' POV that although she is riding him, she has no control over where he goes. So presumably he left because he wanted to/was being attacked, not because Daenerys 'told' him to do so.

9 minutes ago, SeanF said:

She had to face Drogon down.  He came quite close to killing her.

Yes.

Edited June 7, 2023 by Craving Peaches