Daenerys Targaryen is a better leader than Jon Snow.

[Loose Bolt]

Dany is a troll. After all her father both looked and behaved like a one and her brother tried to outtroll their father by pissing off Baratheons, Martells and Starks. But unfortunately to Rhaegar Aerys II kept his status as a master troll by killing Lord Stark and his heir and making sure that only great house that stayed loyal to him by their own will was House Tyrell.

[Only 89 selfies today]

On 12/21/2022 at 12:32 PM, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Merry Chrismas.  May the Lord bless you and keep your family safe during this holiday season.  

Daenerys Targaryen is a better ruler and leader than Jon Snow.  We are all familiar with their leadership styles.  There is enough information for us to pass judgment on who the better leader is.  I will start with Jon Snow.

Jon Snow

Jon is far from the worst leader in A Song of Ice and Fire.  He is actually capable most of the time.  His biggest strength as a leader is his ability to teach.  Jon was able to teach the other less-fortunate cadets the proper use of the sword in combat.  Yes, he was an arrogant and entitled fool when he arrived.  A little man to man talk with a seasoned man helped open his eyes.  Many of the fans praise Jon for protecting the craven cadet, Samwell Tarly.  It is a well-earned praise.  Samwell would have died from fright if Jon had not stepped in and helped. 

I have established that Jon Snow is basically an average guy who has had good training in the fighting arts.  As a leader, he is usually capable of performing his job.  However, he has big problems beneath his exterior.  Many of the fans have already brought it up repeatedly.   Jon has a chip on his shoulders.  Push that chip and he goes ballistic.  He is guilty of attacking Ser Alliser Thorne, a man of higher rank and status.  He has anger management issues which culminated in the inappropriate way in which he judged two guilty men, Janos Slynt and Mance Rayder.  By every laws of the land, it should have been the deserter and traitor, Mance Rayder, who was executed.  Matters went downhill from there.  He sent the deserter and turncloak to bring his sister to him at the Wall.  This is an act of war against Roose and Ramsay Bolton.  The Night's Watch should never, and never has until now, make war against the people of The Seven Kingdoms. 

I served in the military for a significant part of my early adult life.  I have never been tested in the same way as Jon was with Arya.  I will say there are a lot of men who would do as Jon did.  They would forsake their duties, no matter how critical it is, to save their sisters.  But there are still more who would do their duties and accept that they cannot help their sisters.  For proof, you only have to look at those men who are in the business of rescuing and saving people and property.  Many men would rather be at home with their families during an emergency crisis but instead they stay at their posts and do their jobs.  I knew people who went to Kuwait while they had desperate families back home.  Parents battling cancer.  Wives struggling to raise handicapped children alone.  I could go on and on.  The point is, it is not unreasonable nor is it rare for people to do their jobs even when they have critical family concerns back home.  And those men who can't do this should never be in command.  It's fine for desk jockey to always sacrifice his duties for his families.  But that is not acceptable for a commander of an organization who has been tasked with the protection of the kingdom from an existential threat. 

Quorin Halfhand said something in book 2.  He said of Mance Rayder, he was the best and the worst of us.  He had trouble obeying.  Jon is very much like Mance Rayder.  In many ways, he is the ideal black brother.  But he is also the worst possible.  Jon is a man gifted with martial skills.  He is a smart young man who usually makes sound decisions.  I don't think his inability to judge and prioritize will matter much with the Wildlings.  To the Free Folk, whatever the strong man says is right is right.  Might makes right with the Wildlings.  Jon does not have to be fair, nor consistent.  Laws among the Wildlings are not as well-defined. 

Daenerys Targaryen

Princess Daenerys Targaryen began the story a scared and nervous young girl.  Forced to marry into an alien culture, she used her natural intelligence to thrive.  Courage, intelligence, and determination allowed her to adapt to the Dothraki culture.  She brought the dragons back from extinction.  She had the smarts and the courage to lead her khalasar beyond the Red Waste until they reached Vaes Tolorro.  This is nothing less than remarkable for a girl of her age.  She defeated the Undying in the Palace of Dust with the help of her dragon, Drogon.  Over and over, Daenerys has managed to use her intelligence and her cunning to outmaneuver her adversaries.  She has become a very good player of the game of thrones with a style all her own. 

Queen Daenerys has become the conqueror and the ruler of the slaver city of Meereen.  She knows what we know.  As humans, we have a responsibility to make laws and judge the guilty.  The Meereenese masters perpetrated the most heinous war crime in the entire saga so far.  This is many times more heinous than the Red Wedding in The Twins.  The masters crucified the children of their slaves and used them to decorate the road to the city.  This kind of crime cannot go unpunished.  To do so would be to deny justice to those children.  Allowing the Meereenese to bring forth the guilty is a modern concept of peers judging peers.  It is certainly preferable to the arbitrary trial of combat being practiced in Westeros.  She is facing an enemy who refuse to fight her troops in open combat.  And yet, she refused to execute her cup bearers.  This was a smart move.  Those children can be socialized and educated away from their slaver parents.  These children will be the foundation of a free Slaver's Bay. 

The situation in Meereen is very complicated.  Skahaz, Reznak, and Hizdahr are unreliable allies.  Daenerys has been warned to be careful by Quaithe.  Yet, she reacts with reason and caution.  Cersei would have had them all killed.  But a good leader knows that you have to trust people.  Everything carries a risk.  One person cannot manage a city of the size of Meereen.  Jorah's betrayal is revealed.  Daenerys wisely did not kill the man and instead sent him into exile.  Daenerys is a reflective, thoughtful person.  Which is a good quality for someone who has to make decisions.  She has some learning to do but her potential as a ruler is without limits.  I would choose her to rule Westeros.  

Dany will be the great ruler needed to see the people through the long night and beyond.  She has the strength and the intelligence to lead people through the darkness and back into the light.  The journey through the Red Waste is an example of what she will accomplish in the future.  Just like she led her Khalasar through to safety, she will lead the remaining Westeros people and help them survive the winter.  Jon already had his chance and blew it.  I don't think Jon will get another chance at leading people. 

[Aerodimas]

People need to realize that Dany is uneducated. She is smart and Viserys teached her some lenguages but she is not ready to rule anything. Mereen was her trial and she had to run away. Will she return and make things right? Probably. But it will be her 3th atemp (i don't remember the name of the city that got overruled by the slaves).

It is fare to give Jon a second chance, he wasn't doing it to bad for a child and Master Aemon thought that his ideas were good.

[astarkchoice]

5 hours ago, Aerodimas said:

People need to realize that Dany is uneducated. She is smart and Viserys teached her some lenguages but she is not ready to rule anything. Mereen was her trial and she had to run away. Will she return and make things right? Probably. But it will be her 3th atemp (i don't remember the name of the city that got overruled by the slaves).

It is fare to give Jon a second chance, he wasn't doing it to bad for a child and Master Aemon thought that his ideas were good.

To put her disaster astopor into perspective

They were in a hurry , shes a teen whos had a basic education and knows lots about feudalism and a little of the running of ghe free cities but  none of that could prepare her to set up a society from scratch. 

That said even stable goverments have been brought down in violent coups.

[Moiraine Sedai]

6 hours ago, Aerodimas said:

People need to realize that Dany is uneducated. She is smart and Viserys teached her some lenguages but she is not ready to rule anything. Mereen was her trial and she had to run away. Will she return and make things right? Probably. But it will be her 3th atemp (i don't remember the name of the city that got overruled by the slaves).

It is fare to give Jon a second chance, he wasn't doing it to bad for a child and Master Aemon thought that his ideas were good.

Compared to Daenerys, Jon is an uneducated barbarian who has never been outside the northern parts. Daenerys has travelled far and wide, learned many languages, met with many cultures, a great leader of men, and intelligent. That is the practical equivalent of a doctorate for the period. Those are the qualities and experiences needed by one who will rule a diverse population. Jon is quite ignorant. 

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Compared to Daenerys, Jon is an uneducated barbarian who has never been outside the northern parts. Daenerys has travelled far and wide, learned many languages, met with many cultures, a great leader of men, and intelligent. That is the practical equivalent of a doctorate for the period. Those are the qualities and experiences needed by one who will rule a diverse population. Jon is quite ignorant. 

That’s overdoing it a bit, Moraine, even for you. 
 

But anyhoo… know where Dany has never been to and where she only has second-hand info coming from her deranged brother? Westeros.

[Craving Peaches]

3 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

That is the practical equivalent of a doctorate for the period.

Not really, given you can...uhh...actually go study at the Citadel and earn links (if you are male) or be taught by someone from there. Daenerys has only received info about Westeros from Viserys(!), Illyrio and Jorah. Not great sources.

[sifth]

3 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Compared to Daenerys, Jon is an uneducated barbarian who has never been outside the northern parts. Daenerys has travelled far and wide, learned many languages, met with many cultures, a great leader of men, and intelligent. That is the practical equivalent of a doctorate for the period. Those are the qualities and experiences needed by one who will rule a diverse population. Jon is quite ignorant. 

You know I often wonder if you’re a bot. Your comments just don’t feel like they’re coming from an actual human being. 

[astarkchoice]

3 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Compared to Daenerys, Jon is an uneducated barbarian who has never been outside the northern parts. Daenerys has travelled far and wide, learned many languages, met with many cultures, a great leader of men, and intelligent. That is the practical equivalent of a doctorate for the period. Those are the qualities and experiences needed by one who will rule a diverse population. Jon is quite ignorant. 

Jon had a private tutor his entire life whereas dany didnt though. He grew up watching the ruler of a huge stable region(the north) rule in a way where he was feared respected and adored by many! Dany.knows 2 languages very well a

[Darth Sidious]

Daenerys is more intelligent than Jon. She has more self control and better at governing. Jon had an obedient and organized Night’s Watch handed to him and he managed to screw it up. 

[sifth]

3 hours ago, Darth Sidious said:

Daenerys is more intelligent than Jon. She has more self control and better at governing. Jon had an obedient and organized Night’s Watch handed to him and he managed to screw it up. 

The same Night's Watch that murdered the Lord Commander who came before Jon and was on the verge of selling out to the Lannisters. You trolls are rather funny.

[LongRider]

57 minutes ago, sifth said:

You trolls are rather funny.

So many declarative sentences, cracks me up.   Troll: this did happen and that did happen and this happened too and this will happen some more!

Pass the popcorn.

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

The same Night's Watch that murdered the Lord Commander who came before Jon and was on the verge of selling out to the Lannisters. 

The bolded does not get the attention it deserves.  

[Craving Peaches]

7 hours ago, Darth Sidious said:

She has more self control

No she doesn't. She decides to have people tortured just because she feels angry.

7 hours ago, Darth Sidious said:

Jon had an obedient and organized Night’s Watch

Wrong.

7 hours ago, Darth Sidious said:

he managed to screw it up

Actually it was going fine until Bowen the Idiot screwed it up.

7 hours ago, Darth Sidious said:

Daenerys is more intelligent than Jon.

Any proof?

[Lord Varys]

Jon is not really dumb, but he is an unwilling and thus incompetent leader. The guy wins the election by a landslide and is then assassinated by one of his closest associates shortly thereafter. He failed to inspire loyalty in his own men. Which means failed as a leader in a very spectacular fashion. He wasn't assassinated by some outsider lunatic, but by the guy who was effectively his second-in-command.

Dany's mistakes are not even remotely in the same league. In ADwD her only mistake is her desire for peace - not the way she communicates or interacts with her own people. Her weakness is her own desire, not the way she communicates it. Unlike Jon, she always had the means and assets to triumph - she just chose not to use them. She also doesn't surround herself with advisors whose opinions she knows in advance and whose input she ignores.

Whenever she did use them in the past she showed a striking understanding of power and strategy. She also makes lonely decisions, at times, but hers are instinctively the right decisions.

Jon shows that he is an anti-intellectual with little imagination in ADwD, unfortunately. I wanted to scream at the asshole when he reveals he literally didn't listen to Sam's historical lecture. Being a leader doesn't fit with 'I want to be a super swordsman and train in the yard hours each day, pretending I also work as master-at-arms'. You get the vibe that he is Jaehaerys to Dany's Alysanne - she got the brains while he is much more conventional.

Dany clearly has an intuitive understanding of languages. She might not be formally educated but she is smart as hell. Jon was portrayed as smarter and deeper than Robb back in the day ... but somehow that wasn't exactly transferred well (or at all) to ADwD.

[csuszka1948]

7 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

No she doesn't. She decides to have people tortured just because she feels angry.

 

 

 

 

 

Jon gets provoked into attacking Ramsay and breaking his oaths.

Jon gets goaded into attacking and almost killing Thorne.

7 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Actually it was going fine until Bowen the Idiot screwed it up.

 

 

 

 

 

Bowen killed Jon after he officially announced that he breaks his oaths and leads a wildling army to Winterfell, while sending the NW to Hardhome, something BM considered a suicide mission.

Also, by the same standards Astapor was going fine until 'Cleon the idiot' screwed up and Yunkai was going fine until the Great Masters doublecrossed her. Still, for some reason Dany gets blamed for Astapor and Yunkai, and Jon doesn't get blame for his assassination.

Edited May 29, 2023 by csuszka1948

[sifth]

16 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

Also, by the same standards Astapor was going fine until 'Cleon the idiot' screwed up and Yunkai was going fine until the Great Masters doublecrossed her. Still, for some reason Dany gets blamed for Astapor and Yunkai, and Jon doesn't get blame for his assassination.

Did Dany leave anyone to defend Astapor? Did she leave one of her generals to rule over it in her name? What about an army or some peacekeeping force? She found a bunch of people she thought were smart, left them no army to defend themselves and said "good luck".

Edited May 29, 2023 by sifth

[Lord Varys]

25 minutes ago, sifth said:

Did Dany leave anyone to defend Astapor? Did she leave one of her generals to rule over it in her name? What about an army or some peacekeeping force? She found a bunch of people she thought were smart, left them no army to defend themselves and said "good luck".

That has nothing to do with her rule. She didn't conquer the place, she just sacked it. It is like saying the Ironborn are responsible for the coastal regions they raid. Not Dany's problem if the people cannot properly rule themselves.

[James Arryn]

My 3 year old twins play this game where one shouts “Blue is better!” and the other one acts exasperated and says “No, Pink is better!” And they laugh, and go back and forth, each acting more and more fed up with the other’s refusal to see the obvious.

 

The difference between them, the 3 year old twins, and this Jon vs. Dany stuff is that the 3 year olds actually get how its ridiculousness is what makes it fun and funny. To the point where they sometimes go meta and both protest that blue is better while pretending to tear out their hair when the other emphatically says they’re wrong and then declares their agreement on blue. 

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

Jon gets provoked into attacking Ramsay and breaking his oaths.

Jon gets goaded into attacking and almost killing Thorne.

Yes he does, but that doesn't negate what Daenerys did, so I think it is incorrect to say that Daenerys has more self control than Jon given they both lash out. Also, he didn't just attack Ramsay in hot blood, he takes some time to mull over the decision given he appears to discuss it with Tormund first before making his decision. He doesn't just read the letter and then instantly run off to fight...

2 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

Also, by the same standards Astapor was going fine until 'Cleon the idiot' screwed up and Yunkai was going fine until the Great Masters doublecrossed her.

Daenerys left the council in Astapor with nothing to defend themselves. Cleon and the associated events are a result of her naivety/lack of foresight. 

I am not trying to make out Daenerys to be worse than she is, but I don't think it is correct to suggest that she has more self control/foresight than Jon. They are both similar in this regard in my view.