Daenerys Targaryen is a better leader than Jon Snow.

[Rondo]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Jon is nothing like Dany destroyer of cities, committer of genocides, feeder of pedovore dragons, permitter of blood magic. Jon is the blue flower that grows from a chink in the wall of ice, he represents life whereas Dany is the very manifestation of death and suffering, only things she leaves in her wake. She’s a child murderer(slavers above 12 that are still children). People are  disgusted with Cersei, rightfully so, when she commits the abominable act of ordering a few of Robert’s bastards killed but when Dany orders thousands of children to be killed it’s ok.

Jon is indeed nothing like Dany.  Jon is mentally inferior.  He's not as smart nor as capable as she is.  Jon can't even manage a small group of men and women at the wall.  Jon sucked so badly as his job that his own brothers stabbed him to death just to get rid of him.  Bowen Marsh should have said before he pushed the knife in, "You're fired, Jon Snow."  

[Oana_Mika]

28 minutes ago, SeanF said:

They are the mirror image of each other.

If you’re championing human traffickers/the Sons of the Harpy/the Boltons/Tywin Lannister/Janos Slynt/The Freys, you’ve lost the argument already.

But, I doubt if such are arguments are made in good faith.

I know most part of them are trolls but it gets very frustrating hearing them being repeated over and over and over again. Guess is my bad for getting involved in a fandom. Specially one who can't even agree that the right thing to do is to fight the masters, that tearing down an economy based of slavery is not bad, that revolutions are not made with the hands clean but they are still worth it and that the most human thing is to help the slaves as soon as possible, not after years of planning or "ajusting" the masters to the new change because the slavers are not the priority, but the slaves. Funnily, Dany's detractors don't even realise (or have forgot or they don't care) that the slaves want her to fight the masters, not to accept their demands.

 

Honestly, most times I feel like this fandom has become more a shit war (throwing puns towards characters to show how cool your fave is) than genuinely liking the books.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Oana_Mika

[Corvo the Crow]

31 minutes ago, Rondo said:

Jon is indeed nothing like Dany.  Jon is mentally inferior.  He's not as smart nor as capable as she is.  Jon can't even manage a small group of men and women at the wall.  Jon sucked so badly as his job that his own brothers stabbed him to death just to get rid of him.  Bowen Marsh should have said before he pushed the knife in, "You're fired, Jon Snow."  

I’m sure if Jon put his mind in it, he too could’ve wiped out an entire city… oh wait! That was never Dany’s intention! Mentally superior indeed.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Oana_Mika said:

We got it, you champ the slaver's propaganda like is no tomorrow.

Slaver propaganda? You bet pal! Tell me which one of the things I mentioned  hasn’t happened and is slaver propaganda? Bring proper quote evidence please. 

Edit: oh wait, you can argue that I am wrong on saying she’s a destroyer of cities since it’s plural and so far she’s only caused the destruction of one, sorry my mistake. 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Corvo the Crow

[SeanF]

6 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Slaver propaganda? You bet pal! Tell me which one of the things I mentioned  hasn’t happened and is slaver propaganda? Bring proper quote evidence please. 

Edit: oh wait, you can argue that I am wrong on saying she’s a destroyer of cities since it’s plural and so far she’s only caused the destruction of one, sorry my mistake. 

You’ve already told us, on another thread, that 60-70% of your posts are trolling.

[Corvo the Crow]

5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

You’ve already told us, on another thread, that 60-70% of your posts are trolling.

Nope. I said not my posts, my posts on Dany and I think I specifically mentioned that they were in response to hateful Dany  trolls. Also prove me wrong. 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Corvo the Crow

[SeanF]

4 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Nope. I said not my posts, my posts on Dany and I think I specifically mentioned that they were in response to Dany hate trolls. Also prove me wrong. 

So your posts on Dany are just trolling.  Glad to have that confirmed.

[Oana_Mika]

28 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Slaver propaganda? You bet pal! Tell me which one of the things I mentioned  hasn’t happened and is slaver propaganda? Bring proper quote evidence please. 

 

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Jon is nothing like Dany destroyer of cities, committer of genocides, feeder of pedovore dragons, permitter of blood magic. Jon is the blue flower that grows from a chink in the wall of ice, he represents life whereas Dany is the very manifestation of death and suffering, only things she leaves in her wake. She’s a child murderer(slavers above 12 that are still children). People are  disgusted with Cersei, rightfully so, when she commits the abominable act of ordering a few of Robert’s bastards killed but when Dany orders thousands of children to be killed it’s ok.

 

 

The Yunkai'i claimed that she fed her dragons on human flesh and bathed in the blood of virgins to keep her skin smooth and supple. [...] And Books, the clever Volantene swordsman who always seemed to have his nose poked in some crumbly scroll, thought the dragon queen both murderous and mad. "Her khal killed her brother to make her queen. Then she killed her khal to make herself khaleesi. She practices blood sacrifice, lies as easily as she breathes, turns against her own on a whim. She's broken truces, tortured envoys … her father was mad too. It runs in the blood."-A Dance with Dragons - The Windblown

 

"Sweet?" Qavo laughed. "If even half the stories coming back from Slaver's Bay are true, this child is a monster. They say that she is bloodthirsty, that those who speak against her are impaled on spikes to die lingering deaths. They say she is a sorceress who feeds her dragons on the flesh of newborn babes, an oathbreaker who mocks the gods, breaks truces, threatens envoys, and turns on those who have served her loyally. They say her lust cannot be sated, that she mates with men, women, eunuchs, even dogs and children, and woe betide the lover who fails to satisfy her. She gives her body to men to take their souls in thrall." - A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VI

 

The "Dany genocided Astapor and killed everyone over 11" is your addition, I'll give you that (though unoriginal). Please , ask a literature teacher if "harm no child under 12" means "Kill everyone over 11". Hope you note that not even the slavers spread this joke, given that they (the Masters of Yunkai more exactly) destroyed Astapor : 

 

It was the Tattered Prince himself who did the speaking. "Orders have come down from Yurkhaz," he said. "What Astapori still survive have come creeping from their hidey-holes, it seems. There's nothing left in Astapor but corpses, so they're pouring out into the countryside, hundreds of them, maybe thousands, all starved and sick. The Yunkai'i don't want them near their Yellow City. We've been commanded to hunt them down and turn them, drive them back to Astapor or north to Meereen. If the dragon queen wants to take them in, she's welcome to them. Half of them have the bloody flux, and even the healthy ones are mouths to feed." - A Dance with Dragons - The Windblown

Edited December 24, 2022 by Oana_Mika

[Corvo the Crow]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

So your posts on Dany are just trolling.  Glad to have that confirmed.

Again you demonstrate your lack of comprehension, glad to have that confirmed.

[Corvo the Crow]

3 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

 

 

 

The Yunkai'i claimed that she fed her dragons on human flesh and bathed in the blood of virgins to keep her skin smooth and supple. [...] And Books, the clever Volantene swordsman who always seemed to have his nose poked in some crumbly scroll, thought the dragon queen both murderous and mad. "Her khal killed her brother to make her queen. Then she killed her khal to make herself khaleesi. She practices blood sacrifice, lies as easily as she breathes, turns against her own on a whim. She's broken truces, tortured envoys … her father was mad too. It runs in the blood."-A Dance with Dragons - The Windblown

 

"Sweet?" Qavo laughed. "If even half the stories coming back from Slaver's Bay are true, this child is a monster. They say that she is bloodthirsty, that those who speak against her are impaled on spikes to die lingering deaths. They say she is a sorceress who feeds her dragons on the flesh of newborn babes, an oathbreaker who mocks the gods, breaks truces, threatens envoys, and turns on those who have served her loyally. They say her lust cannot be sated, that she mates with men, women, eunuchs, even dogs and children, and woe betide the lover who fails to satisfy her. She gives her body to men to take their souls in thrall." - A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VI

 

The "Dany genocided Astapor and killed everyone over 11" is your addition, I'll give you that (though unoriginal). Please , ask a literature teacher if "harm no child under 12" means "Kill everyone over 11". Hope you note that not even the slavers spread this joke.

Lol. Not my fault if slaver propaganda partially correspond with actual events that happened.

I’ll keep it simple, answer yes or no.

Did she order thr deaths of nonslave Astapori population above 12 or not?
 

Did the freed man of Astapor castrate the remainders of this group or not?

Did she abandon the freed man of Astapor in their time of need or not?

Did she sign(or was she on the verge of signing) a treaty enabling slavery in Yunkai and Astapor again or not?

Did her actions and in actions above result in Astapor’s population, slave and freed man alike, getting wiped out or not?

Did her dragon attack a kid or not?

Did she have Mirri Maz Duur, a child murderer (poor Rhaego the innocent) perform blood magic to have her save her slaving, murdering husband Drogo or not?

Yes or no?

 

[SeanF]

12 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Lol. Not my fault if slaver propaganda partially correspond with actual events that happened.

I’ll keep it simple, answer yes or no.

Did she order thr deaths of nonslave Astapori population above 12 or not?
 

Did the freed man of Astapor castrate the remainders of this group or not?

Did she abandon the freed man of Astapor in their time of need or not?

Did she sign(or was she on the verge of signing) a treaty enabling slavery in Yunkai and Astapor again or not?

Did her actions and in actions above result in Astapor’s population, slave and freed man alike, getting wiped out or not?

Did her dragon attack a kid or not?

Did she have Mirri Maz Duur, a child murderer (poor Rhaego the innocent) perform blood magic to have her save her slaving, murdering husband Drogo or not?

Yes or no?

 

1.  No.  She ordered the deaths of slavers, Good Masters, tokar wearers, soldiers and overseers.  That is, the elite and their enforcers.  She specifically ordered that children under 12 were not to be harmed.  Teenagers who fell into the above categories however, were killed.  Some of these teenagers bear weapons.  In a fight, you kill the enemy.

This is a world in which teenagers fight and work.  And they can be killed.  Robb has no intention of sparing Joffrey.  Robb’s enemies have no intention of sparing him.  They are both of them, teenagers.

2.  Cleon and his supporters castrated freeborn males (which goes to show, she did not order their deaths).  The moral responsibility for that lies with Cleon and his supporters.

3.  It is 463 miles from Meereen to Astapor. A huge hostile army lay between the two.  She also faces an insurgency.  Her primary responsibility is to her subjects in Meereen. She fears both defeat in the field, and a slaver uprising if she marches to Astapor.  Unlike the show, armies in the books can’t teleport.

4.  The massacre of Astapor’s population was perpetrated by the Yunkish lords and their mercenaries.  These people are responsible for their own crimes.  Daenerys does not operate some form of mind control over them.

5.  She agreed a treaty because a vast army stood at the gates of Meereen.  She was attempting to secure peace for her people.

In fact, we know through Quentyn’s and Tyrion’s POV’s that the slaver army is much weaker than it appears.  It looks like they’re getting kerb-stomped in TWOW.  That’s a good thing.

6.  We don’t know if Drogon killed Hazzea or not.  Regardless, she attempted to chain her dragons, but Drogon escaped.

That was a mistake, as it emboldened the slavers.

7.  She trusted MMD.  Most unwisely.

[Oana_Mika]

8 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Did she order thr deaths of nonslave Astapori population above 12 or not?

Above 12 does not mean EVERYONE over 11 as you suggested. The order was explicitly given to spare children and yes, adults happen to be older than 12.

 

8 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Did the freed man of Astapor castrate the remainders of this group or not?

Why is Dany at fault for what Cleon does or does not?

8 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Did she abandon the freed man of Astapor in their time of need or not?

She tried to help them as much as she can :

 

 

I have no more help to give, Dany thought, despairing. The Astapori had no place to go. Thousands remained outside Meereen's thick walls—men and women and children, old men and little girls and newborn babes. Many were sick, most were starved, and all were doomed to die. Daenerys dare not open her gates to let them in. She had tried to do what she could for them. She had sent them healers, Blue Graces and spell-singers and barber-surgeons, but some of those had sickened as well, and none of their arts had slowed the galloping progression of the flux that had come on the pale mare. Separating the healthy from the sick had proved impractical as well. Her Stalwart Shields had tried, pulling husbands away from wives and children from their mothers, even as the Astapori wept and kicked and pelted them with stones. A few days later, the sick were dead and the healthy ones were sick. Dividing the one from the other had accomplished nothing.

Even feeding them had grown difficult. Every day she sent them what she could, but every day there were more of them and less food to give them. It was growing harder to find drivers willing to deliver the food as well. Too many of the men they had sent into the camp had been stricken by the flux themselves. Others had been attacked on the way back to the city. Yesterday a wagon had been overturned and two of her soldiers killed, so today the queen had determined that she would bring the food herself. Every one of her advisors had argued fervently against it, from Reznak and the Shavepate to Ser Barristan, but Daenerys would not be moved. "I will not turn away from them," she said stubbornly. "A queen must know the sufferings of her people." - A Dance with Dragons - Dsenerys VI

 

And she did not help Cleon because he is a slaver himself, because that was a condition of the peace and because if she had left Meereen, the people that remained there would have been slaughtered by the Sons of the Harpy : 

 

If he proposes again that I wed King Cleon, I'll throw a slipper at his head, Dany thought, but for once the Astapori envoy made no mention of a royal marriage. Instead he said, "The time has come for Astapor and Meereen to end the savage reign of the Wise Masters of Yunkai, who are sworn foes to all those who live in freedom. Great Cleon bids me tell you that he and his new Unsullied will soon march."

His new Unsullied are an obscene jape. "King Cleon would be wise to tend his own gardens and let the Yunkai'i tend theirs." It was not that Dany harbored any love for Yunkai. She was coming to regret leaving the Yellow City untaken after defeating its army in the field. The Wise Masters had returned to slaving as soon as she moved on, and were busy raising levies, hiring sellswords, and making alliances against her.

Cleon the self-styled Great was no better, however. The Butcher King had restored slavery to Astapor, the only change being that the former slaves were now the masters and the former masters were now the slaves. - A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys I

~

"I warned your king that this war of his was folly," Dany reminded him. "He would not listen."

"Great Cleon sought only to strike down the vile slavers of Yunkai."

"Great Cleon is a slaver himself."

"I know that the Mother of Dragons will not abandon us in our hour of peril. Lend us your Unsullied to defend our walls."

And if I do, who will defend my walls? "Many of my freedmen were slaves in Astapor. Perhaps some will wish to help defend your king. That is their choice, as free men. I gave Astapor its freedom. It is up to you to defend it."- A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys III

~

"Even then some said that you were coming," said the weaver. "They swore they had seen you mounted on a dragon, flying high above the camps of the Yunkai'i. Every day we looked for you."

I could not come, the queen thought. I dare not.- A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys V

~

[...]Yunkai will give us peace, but for a price. The disruption of the slave trade has caused great injury throughout the civilized world. Yunkai and her allies will require an indemnity of us, to be paid in gold and gemstones."

Gold and gems were easy. "What else?"

"The Yunkai'i will resume slaving, as before. Astapor will be rebuilt, as a slave city. You will not interfere."

"The Yunkai'i resumed their slaving before I was two leagues from  their city. Did I turn back? King Cleon begged me to join with him  against them, and I turned a deaf ear to his pleas. I want no war with Yunkai. How many times must I say it? What promises do they require?" - A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys VI

~

"They are permitting that, yes," she had replied, "but their warships remain. They can close their fingers around our throat again whenever they wish. They have opened a slave market within sight of my walls!"

"Outside our walls, sweet queen. That was a condition of the peace, that Yunkai would be free to trade in slaves as before, unmolested" - A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys VIII

And it's not like she does not regret it : 

"These are not apples, Ben," said Dany. "These are men and women, sick and hungry and afraid." My children. "I should have gone to Astapor."

"Your Grace could not have saved them," said Ser Barristan. "You warned King Cleon against this war with Yunkai. The man was a fool, and his hands were red with blood."

And are my hands any cleaner? She remembered what Daario had said—that all kings must be butchers, or meat. "Cleon was the enemy of our enemy. If I had joined him at the Horns of Hazzat, we might have crushed the Yunkai'i between us."

The Shavepate disagreed. "If you had taken the Unsullied south to Hazzat, the Sons of the Harpy—"

"I know. I know. It is Eroeh all over again." - A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys V

But ultimately she was stuck between a rock and a hard place and as she said : Her host numbered more than eighty thousand after Yunkai, but fewer than a quarter of them were soldiers. - A Storm of Swords - Daenerys V

 

8 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Did she sign(or was she on the verge of signing) a treaty enabling slavery in Yunkai and Astapor again or not?

 

She signed that YUNKAI can return as before unmolested because of the peace, that was one of their requirements. Can you guys stick with one narrative at least?? She is bad for wanting peace, thus she is forced to placate the masters, but she is also "genociding" them when she fights against them. Don't worry, she's done signing treats with them.

 

8 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Did her actions and in actions above result in Astapor’s population

She idirectly had a part in it because not leaving a garrison behind led to Cleon being King and leaving Yunkai untouched enabled them to fight Astapor but ultimately, the blame rests on Cleon and Yukai's masters, as they are resposible for their own acctions.

And she precisely stays in Meereen to avoid that : 

 

"[...]I will not let this city go the way of Astapor. I will not let the harpy of Yunkai chain up those I've freed all over again." She turned back to look at their faces. "I will not march." - A Storm of Swords - Daenerys VI

 

8 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Did her dragon attack a kid or not?

And how is her fault??? Her dragons are half wild, with no riders and there is no course on how to train them. And that's why she lock them.

 

8 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Did she have Mirri Maz Duur, a child murderer (poor Rhaego the innocent) perform blood magic to have her save her slaving, murdering husband Drogo or not?

Rhaego indeed was innocent, as he did not even drew a breath and her desperation to have her son protected turned her towards Mirri's help.

 

So you see, it's not simply a matter to answer "yes or no" because things are more nuanced than that. Guess you thought it was a "gotcha" but it only shows you trolling and poor reading comprehention.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Oana_Mika

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

1 hour ago, Rondo said:

Jon is indeed nothing like Dany.  Jon is mentally inferior.  He's not as smart nor as capable as she is.  Jon can't even manage a small group of men and women at the wall.  Jon sucked so badly as his job that his own brothers stabbed him to death just to get rid of him.  Bowen Marsh should have said before he pushed the knife in, "You're fired, Jon Snow."  

I agree! Dany’s perfect control of the cities she conquered is something to behold! The loyalty she inspires from the people is amazing. They just follow her orders and edicts to perfectly! 

[Oana_Mika]

7 hours ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

The loyalty she inspires from the people is amazing.

Other slaves insisted that the guards were lying, that Daenerys Targaryen would never make peace with slavers. Mhysa , they called her. Someone told him that meant Mother. Soon the silver queen would come forth from her city, smash the Yunkai'i, and break their chains, they whispered to one another. - A Dance with Dragons -Tyrion X

 

"Is it true?" a freedwoman shouted. "Is our mother dead?"

"No, no, no," Reznak screeched. "Queen Daenerys will return to Meereen in her own time in all her might and majesty. Until such time, His Worship King Hizdahr shall—"

"He is no king of mine," a freedman yelled.- A Dance with Dragons - The Discarted Knight

 

Behind the Black Wall, lords of ancient blood sleep poorly, listening as their kitchen slaves sharpen their long knives. Slaves grow our food, clean our streets, teach our young. They guard our walls, row our galleys, fight our battles. And now when they look east, they see this young queen shining from afar, this breaker of chains. The Old Blood cannot suffer that. A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VI

 

"I am no lady," the widow replied, "just Vogarro's whore. You want to be gone from here before the tigers come. Should you reach your queen, give her a message from the slaves of Old Volantis." She touched the faded scar upon her wrinkled cheek, where her tears had been cut away. "Tell her we are waiting. Tell her to come soon." - A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VII

 

Ser Barristan Selmy rode past them slowly. The old knight wore the armor his queen had given him—a suit of white enameled steel, inlaid and chased with gold. The cloak that streamed from his shoulders was as white as winter snow, as was the shield slung from his saddle. Beneath him was the queen's own mount, the silver mare Khal Drogo had given her upon their wedding day. That was presumptuous, he knew, but if Daenerys herself could not be with them in their hour of peril, Ser Barristan hoped the sight of her silver in the fray might give heart to her warriors, reminding them of who and what they fought for. - The Winds of Winter - Barristan I

 

"Mother to dragons." Dany shivered.

"No. Mother to us all." Missandei hugged her tighter. - A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys II

 

Indeed, is amazing how much the freedmen and slaves love her and I must say, implying that they are mindless zombies not only shows a disgusting view, one that aligns with the master's (that slaves can't think on their own) but also that you should (re)read the books.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Oana_Mika

[Corvo the Crow]

23 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

Above 12 does not mean EVERYONE over 11 as you suggested. The order was explicitly given to spare children and yes, adults happen to be older than 12.

 

In westeros, below 16 is considered children. Daenerys considers herself to be a child when she was married at what, 13? 14? Sure could be different in Slaver's Bay, the problem is, we are never given any knowledge of it. Poor world building there. I've opened a thread on it, you are welcome to go add it to the pile. They are just bad  guys so Dany can beat their arses and be a hero, the fact that they are one dimensional ones helps most people look over the fact that the character who is intended to be a hero(no arguing there), Dany, willingly commits numerous atrocities and performs non hero actions like lying, deceiving etc. while beating their assess and causes much unintentional suffering to the very people she was supposed to be helping. Bad writing there.

Above 12 means every nonslave above 12 because she orders everyone wearing a tokar killed and tokar is the cloth of free man. Could there be free man not wearing tokar because you can't wear it while doing manual labor? Realistically there should've been but we don't see any ordinary free men performing works that require manual labor and in fact know that there are slaves who do such work that could've and should've been done by middle/lower class citizens, there are barber and butcher slaves, weaver slaves etc. Again, poor world building there.

Quote

Kraznys turned back to his fellows. Once again they conferred among themselves. The translator had told Dany their names, but it was hard to keep them straight. Four of the men seemed to be named Grazdan, presumably after Grazdan the Great who had founded Old Ghis in the dawn of days. They all looked alike; thick fleshy men with amber skin, broad noses, dark eyes. Their wiry hair was black, or a dark red, or that queer mixture of red and black that was peculiar to Ghiscari. All wrapped themselves in tokars, a garment permitted only to freeborn men of Astapor. -ASoS Dany III

...

"Unsullied!" Dany galloped before them, her silver-gold braid flying behind her, her bell chiming with every stride. "Slay the Good Masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who wears a tokar or holds a whip, but harm no child under twelve, and strike the chains off every slave you see." She raised the harpy's fingers in the air . . . and then she flung the scourge aside. "Freedom!" she sang out. "Dracarys! Dracarys!" -ASoS Dany III

 

 

I have no time to respond the rest, I may do so later but  do not feel the need since again, all of it has quote evidence and I've already posted them all in the other thread. 

 

Instead of accusing me with nonsensical stuff, you can do the correct thing and blame GRRM for poor world building and writing poorly when it comes to writing an opposition to Dany. 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Corvo the Crow

[Oana_Mika]

6 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

In westeros, below 16 is considered children. Daenerys considers herself to be a child when she was married at what, 13? 14? Sure could be different in Slaver's Bay, the problem is, we are never given any knowledge of it. Poor world building there. I've opened a thread on it, you are welcome to go add it to the pile. They are just bad  guys so Dany can beat their arses and be a hero, the fact that they are one dimensional ones helps most people look over the fact that the character who is intended to be a hero(no arguing there), Dany, willingly commits numerous atrocities and performs non hero actions like lying, deceiving etc. while beating their assess and causes much unintentional suffering to the very people she was supposed to be helping. Bad writing there.

In Westeros, one can't rule in their own right until they are 16, but they can go to war so it's not what you are saying. Children under 16 are definitely treated as adults/start to be one, as you can see when Sansa flourishes . And please, don't cry that much about "one dimentional evil slavers" when you are defending them. Plus, you would search long to find any depth in Jeoffrey, Boltons and co.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Oana_Mika

[SeanF]

10 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

In westeros, below 16 is considered children. Daenerys considers herself to be a child when she was married at what, 13? 14? Sure could be different in Slaver's Bay, the problem is, we are never given any knowledge of it. Poor world building there. I've opened a thread on it, you are welcome to go add it to the pile. They are just bad  guys so Dany can beat their arses and be a hero, the fact that they are one dimensional ones helps most people look over the fact that the character who is intended to be a hero(no arguing there), Dany, willingly commits numerous atrocities and performs non hero actions like lying, deceiving etc. while beating their assess and causes much unintentional suffering to the very people she was supposed to be helping. Bad writing there.

Above 12 means every nonslave above 12 because she orders everyone wearing a tokar killed and tokar is the cloth of free man. Could there be free man not wearing tokar because you can't wear it while doing manual labor? Realistically there should've been but we don't see any ordinary free men performing works that require manual labor and in fact know that there are slaves who do such work that could've and should've been done by middle/lower class citizens, there are barber and butcher slaves, weaver slaves etc. Again, poor world building there.

 

I have no time to respond the rest, I may do so later but  do not feel the need since again, all of it has quote evidence and I've already posted them all in the other thread. 

Every sympathetic character in this story (eg Jon, Ned, Sansa, Wyman Manderly) “lies and deceives” when necessary.  They live in a world (like ours) where lying and deception is sometimes necessary.

Edited December 24, 2022 by SeanF

[Oana_Mika]

BTW @Corvo the Crow, while you are crying about Dany allegedly killing children, this is how Jon responds : 

 

 

"None but them whose sires displeased the Kings o' Winter," said The Norrey. "Those came home shorter by a head. So you tell me, boy … if these wildling friends o' yours prove false, do you have the belly to do what needs be done?"

Ask Janos Slynt. "Tormund Giantsbane knows better than to try me. I may seem a green boy in your eyes, Lord Norrey, but I am still a son of Eddard Stark." - A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

Edited December 24, 2022 by Oana_Mika

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Oana_Mika said:

but Inan still a son of Eddard Stark

But isn't Eddard well-known for not killing children?

[Oana_Mika]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Every sympathetic character in this story (eg Jon, Ned, Sansa, Wyman Manderly) “lies and deceives” when necessary.

Robb uses his own men as bait to win Tywin