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Daenerys Targaryen is a better leader than Jon Snow.


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36 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Id say its also the pitfighters

Minus them the harpies would have no muscle and the revenue brought in from the fights was a pillar of the citys economy (damn on reflection they would be worth watching given the sheer.variety of fighters/cultures  in planetos!!!) also given the pits have a religious function it would have smoothed her takeover too (esp as i reckon the green grace is the harpy)

 

The fighting pits are popular and generate income.  The problem, as I see it is twofold.

1. They reinforce the Meereenese culture of dominance and subjugation.  The aficionados, wth the best seats, are the upper classes.  Those doing the fighting are all either slaves or freedmen.

2. There's no real control over who fights voluntarily and who fights under compulsion.  Allow the fighting pits, and there's always going to be pressure to make dwarves, children, etc. fight wild animals.

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29 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The fighting pits are popular and generate income.  The problem, as I see it is twofold.

1. They reinforce the Meereenese culture of dominance and subjugation.  The aficionados, wth the best seats, are the upper classes.  Those doing the fighting are all either slaves or freedmen.

2. There's no real control over who fights voluntarily and who fights under compulsion.  Allow the fighting pits, and there's always going to be pressure to make dwarves, children, etc. fight wild animals.

Maybe but id say the +ves outweight all that. The nobility and religioous types would have accepted her more, the economy not hurt as much and most important the harpies would be impotent minus the out of work gladiators

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3 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Maybe but id say the +ves outweight all that. The nobility and religioous types would have accepted her more, the economy not hurt as much and most important the harpies would be impotent minus the out of work gladiators

I expect the harpies mainly comprise freeborn citizens, who are used to handling weapons.

One reason why Dany has so much difficulty suppressing the rebels is that while the freedmen outnumber the freeborn, the latter are far more likely to have access to weapons, and some form of military training than the former.  It's why it's so important to train the freedmen as soldiers. 

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23 hours ago, SeanF said:

I expect the harpies mainly comprise freeborn citizens, who are used to handling weapons.

One reason why Dany has so much difficulty suppressing the rebels is that while the freedmen outnumber the freeborn, the latter are far more likely to have access to weapons, and some form of military training than the former.  It's why it's so important to train the freedmen as soldiers. 

Id say far more likely ex pit fighters given how lazy/weak the masters seem. The ones who.still train arms (such as the man belwas decapitated) are probably rare indeed.

 

To overcome unsullied (who train weapons from birth and despite being  eunuchs seem to have remarkable stamina) youd need someone strong enough to overpowe them.close up or beat them at arms...thats gonna be a gladiator not a master whos be physicaly weak  from never doing hard labour of any kind.

Edited by astarkchoice
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Overall, I would say Dany is a great leader - charismatic, very good at getting people to follow her and shows her compassion openly - but not very good at ruling, although this largely stems from the fact that she never gotten a formal education and is in a land that is foreign to her in many aspects.

However, she instinctually knows that she should care for the people who follow her (her dothraki, people of Meereen) - unlike Stannis, who probably only does it out of a sense of duty - and is ready to make sacrifices (opening fits, marrying Hizhdahr - although that might be misguided) of her own for their sake.

 

In contrast, Jon is a good ruler - he has been educated, has a vision and can follow it through because he pays attention to the minutea details -, but not a particularly good leader: he sends the men loyal to him away from him, rarely explains his motives and doesn't try to build camaraderie. I think this also stems from the fact that he has gotten a somewhat different education from Robb and his conception of leadership is fundamentally different.

Edited by csuszka1948
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On 12/21/2022 at 12:32 PM, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Merry Chrismas.  May the Lord bless you and keep your family safe during this holiday season.  

Daenerys Targaryen is a better ruler and leader than Jon Snow.  We are all familiar with their leadership styles.  There is enough information for us to pass judgment on who the better leader is.  I will start with Jon Snow.

Jon Snow

Jon is far from the worst leader in A Song of Ice and Fire.  He is actually capable most of the time.  His biggest strength as a leader is his ability to teach.  Jon was able to teach the other less-fortunate cadets the proper use of the sword in combat.  Yes, he was an arrogant and entitled fool when he arrived.  A little man to man talk with a seasoned man helped open his eyes.  Many of the fans praise Jon for protecting the craven cadet, Samwell Tarly.  It is a well-earned praise.  Samwell would have died from fright if Jon had not stepped in and helped. 

I have established that Jon Snow is basically an average guy who has had good training in the fighting arts.  As a leader, he is usually capable of performing his job.  However, he has big problems beneath his exterior.  Many of the fans have already brought it up repeatedly.   Jon has a chip on his shoulders.  Push that chip and he goes ballistic.  He is guilty of attacking Ser Alliser Thorne, a man of higher rank and status.  He has anger management issues which culminated in the inappropriate way in which he judged two guilty men, Janos Slynt and Mance Rayder.  By every laws of the land, it should have been the deserter and traitor, Mance Rayder, who was executed.  Matters went downhill from there.  He sent the deserter and turncloak to bring his sister to him at the Wall.  This is an act of war against Roose and Ramsay Bolton.  The Night's Watch should never, and never has until now, make war against the people of The Seven Kingdoms. 

I served in the military for a significant part of my early adult life.  I have never been tested in the same way as Jon was with Arya.  I will say there are a lot of men who would do as Jon did.  They would forsake their duties, no matter how critical it is, to save their sisters.  But there are still more who would do their duties and accept that they cannot help their sisters.  For proof, you only have to look at those men who are in the business of rescuing and saving people and property.  Many men would rather be at home with their families during an emergency crisis but instead they stay at their posts and do their jobs.  I knew people who went to Kuwait while they had desperate families back home.  Parents battling cancer.  Wives struggling to raise handicapped children alone.  I could go on and on.  The point is, it is not unreasonable nor is it rare for people to do their jobs even when they have critical family concerns back home.  And those men who can't do this should never be in command.  It's fine for desk jockey to always sacrifice his duties for his families.  But that is not acceptable for a commander of an organization who has been tasked with the protection of the kingdom from an existential threat. 

Quorin Halfhand said something in book 2.  He said of Mance Rayder, he was the best and the worst of us.  He had trouble obeying.  Jon is very much like Mance Rayder.  In many ways, he is the ideal black brother.  But he is also the worst possible.  Jon is a man gifted with martial skills.  He is a smart young man who usually makes sound decisions.  I don't think his inability to judge and prioritize will matter much with the Wildlings.  To the Free Folk, whatever the strong man says is right is right.  Might makes right with the Wildlings.  Jon does not have to be fair, nor consistent.  Laws among the Wildlings are not as well-defined. 

Daenerys Targaryen

Princess Daenerys Targaryen began the story a scared and nervous young girl.  Forced to marry into an alien culture, she used her natural intelligence to thrive.  Courage, intelligence, and determination allowed her to adapt to the Dothraki culture.  She brought the dragons back from extinction.  She had the smarts and the courage to lead her khalasar beyond the Red Waste until they reached Vaes Tolorro.  This is nothing less than remarkable for a girl of her age.  She defeated the Undying in the Palace of Dust with the help of her dragon, Drogon.  Over and over, Daenerys has managed to use her intelligence and her cunning to outmaneuver her adversaries.  She has become a very good player of the game of thrones with a style all her own. 

Queen Daenerys has become the conqueror and the ruler of the slaver city of Meereen.  She knows what we know.  As humans, we have a responsibility to make laws and judge the guilty.  The Meereenese masters perpetrated the most heinous war crime in the entire saga so far.  This is many times more heinous than the Red Wedding in The Twins.  The masters crucified the children of their slaves and used them to decorate the road to the city.  This kind of crime cannot go unpunished.  To do so would be to deny justice to those children.  Allowing the Meereenese to bring forth the guilty is a modern concept of peers judging peers.  It is certainly preferable to the arbitrary trial of combat being practiced in Westeros.  She is facing an enemy who refuse to fight her troops in open combat.  And yet, she refused to execute her cup bearers.  This was a smart move.  Those children can be socialized and educated away from their slaver parents.  These children will be the foundation of a free Slaver's Bay. 

The situation in Meereen is very complicated.  Skahaz, Reznak, and Hizdahr are unreliable allies.  Daenerys has been warned to be careful by Quaithe.  Yet, she reacts with reason and caution.  Cersei would have had them all killed.  But a good leader knows that you have to trust people.  Everything carries a risk.  One person cannot manage a city of the size of Meereen.  Jorah's betrayal is revealed.  Daenerys wisely did not kill the man and instead sent him into exile.  Daenerys is a reflective, thoughtful person.  Which is a good quality for someone who has to make decisions.  She has some learning to do but her potential as a ruler is without limits.  I would choose her to rule Westeros.  

Dany is very, very capable. The magnitude of the social changes needed at Slaver’s Bay is such that nobody else could do half as well as she has. The Masters and their evil objective to bring slavery back are to blame for the problems. 

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16 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I could. I think I could do better to be honest.

We have the advantage that we have read The Prince.  You don't pussyfoot around, when trying to break the power of a brutal elite who you have just overthrown.

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4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

We have the advantage that we have read The Prince.  You don't pussyfoot around, when trying to break the power of a brutal elite who you have just overthrown.

True, true. But the original statement was without qualification. So I think it is safe to say I could. I would have to be very brutal though.

Edited by Craving Peaches
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On 5/1/2023 at 11:53 AM, The Commentator said:

Dany is very, very capable. The magnitude of the social changes needed at Slaver’s Bay is such that nobody else could do half as well as she has. The Masters and their evil objective to bring slavery back are to blame for the problems. 

 

On 5/1/2023 at 1:37 PM, Craving Peaches said:

I could. I think I could do better to be honest.

 

Jon is the comparison.  Dany is more able and more capable.  

Failure is possible.  The mission to give the slaves freedom could fail.  But that has not happened yet.  While Jon already failed at the wall.  Jon failed.  Jon failed the Nights Watch and Westeros.  It's in the past and Jon's tragic time at the wall will be written in the history books for future students to study failure.  Dany can still succeed and help the slaves be free.  

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34 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Bowen Marsh failed the Watch and Westeros. Not Jon. Jon was trying to defend Westeros and was succeeding until Marsh stabbed him.

Don’t try to argue with them. They are either outright lying about what they believe or they are too far gone to be convinced by anything 

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On 12/21/2022 at 12:32 PM, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Merry Chrismas.  May the Lord bless you and keep your family safe during this holiday season.  

Daenerys Targaryen is a better ruler and leader than Jon Snow.  We are all familiar with their leadership styles.  There is enough information for us to pass judgment on who the better leader is.  I will start with Jon Snow.

Jon Snow

Jon is far from the worst leader in A Song of Ice and Fire.  He is actually capable most of the time.  His biggest strength as a leader is his ability to teach.  Jon was able to teach the other less-fortunate cadets the proper use of the sword in combat.  Yes, he was an arrogant and entitled fool when he arrived.  A little man to man talk with a seasoned man helped open his eyes.  Many of the fans praise Jon for protecting the craven cadet, Samwell Tarly.  It is a well-earned praise.  Samwell would have died from fright if Jon had not stepped in and helped. 

I have established that Jon Snow is basically an average guy who has had good training in the fighting arts.  As a leader, he is usually capable of performing his job.  However, he has big problems beneath his exterior.  Many of the fans have already brought it up repeatedly.   Jon has a chip on his shoulders.  Push that chip and he goes ballistic.  He is guilty of attacking Ser Alliser Thorne, a man of higher rank and status.  He has anger management issues which culminated in the inappropriate way in which he judged two guilty men, Janos Slynt and Mance Rayder.  By every laws of the land, it should have been the deserter and traitor, Mance Rayder, who was executed.  Matters went downhill from there.  He sent the deserter and turncloak to bring his sister to him at the Wall.  This is an act of war against Roose and Ramsay Bolton.  The Night's Watch should never, and never has until now, make war against the people of The Seven Kingdoms. 

I served in the military for a significant part of my early adult life.  I have never been tested in the same way as Jon was with Arya.  I will say there are a lot of men who would do as Jon did.  They would forsake their duties, no matter how critical it is, to save their sisters.  But there are still more who would do their duties and accept that they cannot help their sisters.  For proof, you only have to look at those men who are in the business of rescuing and saving people and property.  Many men would rather be at home with their families during an emergency crisis but instead they stay at their posts and do their jobs.  I knew people who went to Kuwait while they had desperate families back home.  Parents battling cancer.  Wives struggling to raise handicapped children alone.  I could go on and on.  The point is, it is not unreasonable nor is it rare for people to do their jobs even when they have critical family concerns back home.  And those men who can't do this should never be in command.  It's fine for desk jockey to always sacrifice his duties for his families.  But that is not acceptable for a commander of an organization who has been tasked with the protection of the kingdom from an existential threat. 

Quorin Halfhand said something in book 2.  He said of Mance Rayder, he was the best and the worst of us.  He had trouble obeying.  Jon is very much like Mance Rayder.  In many ways, he is the ideal black brother.  But he is also the worst possible.  Jon is a man gifted with martial skills.  He is a smart young man who usually makes sound decisions.  I don't think his inability to judge and prioritize will matter much with the Wildlings.  To the Free Folk, whatever the strong man says is right is right.  Might makes right with the Wildlings.  Jon does not have to be fair, nor consistent.  Laws among the Wildlings are not as well-defined. 

Daenerys Targaryen

Princess Daenerys Targaryen began the story a scared and nervous young girl.  Forced to marry into an alien culture, she used her natural intelligence to thrive.  Courage, intelligence, and determination allowed her to adapt to the Dothraki culture.  She brought the dragons back from extinction.  She had the smarts and the courage to lead her khalasar beyond the Red Waste until they reached Vaes Tolorro.  This is nothing less than remarkable for a girl of her age.  She defeated the Undying in the Palace of Dust with the help of her dragon, Drogon.  Over and over, Daenerys has managed to use her intelligence and her cunning to outmaneuver her adversaries.  She has become a very good player of the game of thrones with a style all her own. 

Queen Daenerys has become the conqueror and the ruler of the slaver city of Meereen.  She knows what we know.  As humans, we have a responsibility to make laws and judge the guilty.  The Meereenese masters perpetrated the most heinous war crime in the entire saga so far.  This is many times more heinous than the Red Wedding in The Twins.  The masters crucified the children of their slaves and used them to decorate the road to the city.  This kind of crime cannot go unpunished.  To do so would be to deny justice to those children.  Allowing the Meereenese to bring forth the guilty is a modern concept of peers judging peers.  It is certainly preferable to the arbitrary trial of combat being practiced in Westeros.  She is facing an enemy who refuse to fight her troops in open combat.  And yet, she refused to execute her cup bearers.  This was a smart move.  Those children can be socialized and educated away from their slaver parents.  These children will be the foundation of a free Slaver's Bay. 

The situation in Meereen is very complicated.  Skahaz, Reznak, and Hizdahr are unreliable allies.  Daenerys has been warned to be careful by Quaithe.  Yet, she reacts with reason and caution.  Cersei would have had them all killed.  But a good leader knows that you have to trust people.  Everything carries a risk.  One person cannot manage a city of the size of Meereen.  Jorah's betrayal is revealed.  Daenerys wisely did not kill the man and instead sent him into exile.  Daenerys is a reflective, thoughtful person.  Which is a good quality for someone who has to make decisions.  She has some learning to do but her potential as a ruler is without limits.  I would choose her to rule Westeros.  

Daenerys will rule over the seven kingdoms of Westeros just like Aegon the Conqueror did and build back after the  long night.  She is a natural at leadership.  Ruling is not in the future for Jon.  His brief time at ruling the wall was totally a disaster because he was unfit for command. 

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1 hour ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Daenerys will rule over the seven kingdoms of Westeros just like Aegon the Conqueror did and build back after the  long night.  She is a natural at leadership.  Ruling is not in the future for Jon.  His brief time at ruling the wall was totally a disaster because he was unfit for command. 

So if we ar gonna do extremes we can say in westeros they can look forward to the well run economy and society  they havev in mereen then?

Now westeros is a larger  more complex kingdom  riven by war and about to meet a.long winter and long dead  demons arising. She may be bringing possibly 2 diseases , teaching the dothraki how to attack westeros and has brought back dragons with 0 controls for their breeding and possible eventual domination of mankind!

Edited by astarkchoice
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Dany made plenty of mistakes in her dealings with the Ghiscari elite, mostly on the basis of being far too lenient towards them, and willing to compromise.

But, let's not kid ourselves that ante-bellum Slavers Bay was anything other than a hellhole for the vast majority of the population. Slavers Bay is George Martin's Mordor.

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23 minutes ago, SeanF said:

But, let's not kid ourselves that ante-bellum Slavers Bay was anything other than a hellhole for the vast majority of the population. Slavers Bay is George Martin's Mordor.

No one reasonable is disputing that. You can still be critical of Daenerys' leadership, however.

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