Heresy 245 The Alpha and the Omega and what lies between

[Matthew.]

Although it's not a new concept within this thread, it is still interesting to see Melisandre explicitly refer to the Nightfort as the "heart of the Wall," since we might assume she's not speaking from a historical perspective--rather, she is probably stating what her own magical intuition is telling her about the nature of the Wall.

[Melifeather]

I'm not so sure that Asha is no longer with Rickon. When Ghost/Jon thinks of his brothers and sisters he doesn't think of them as dualities. They are one and the same. I believe Rickon's other half is Asha.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

16 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I'm not so sure that Asha is no longer with Rickon.

Asha was captured by Stannis. 

[Melifeather]

16 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Asha was captured by Stannis. 

Whoops, my bad, Osha.

[Mithras]

Osha should be dead in this draft. GRRM said that he decided to expand Osha's role in the books after being impressed by Natalia Tena's performance in the show.

And Rickon turned into a feral child.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Mithras

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Although it's not a new concept within this thread, it is still interesting to see Melisandre explicitly refer to the Nightfort as the "heart of the Wall," since we might assume she's not speaking from a historical perspective--rather, she is probably stating what her own magical intuition is telling her about the nature of the Wall.

Yes, I agree. Mel's knowledge of history [and anything else] up north amounts to didley squat

Referring to the Nightfort as the "heart of the Wall" is of a piece with her descriptions of the Wall as a source of power. It also, moving on, suggests that the Nights King was a product of that power, ie; we're not going to see a return of the Nights King [GRRM has already dismissed him] but there could well be a "curse" on anybody forting up there at the present time.  

[Black Crow]

Then skipping over to Jon [and Ghost...

As you know I've argued for some time that his story arc is going to revolve around Winterfell and Winter rather than the Iron Throne etc etc. I've suggested that he's going to embrace the Musgrave Ritual and turn Cold, ie; become a Walker. To my mind that outcome makes a lot of sense, but the accomplishing of it has always been unclear. However, the hints here seem clear: that he gets his human body killed and jumps into Ghost. The problem then is how does he escape from Ghost, but if he and Ghost flee north into the Haunted Forest and make their way to Bran, then that offers Opportunities with a capital O 

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

The problem then is how does he escape from Ghost, but if he and Ghost flee north into the Haunted Forest and make their way to Bran, then that offers Opportunities with a capital O 

Makes more sense than Zombie Jon saves the world! 

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, LongRider said:

Makes more sense than Zombie Jon saves the world! 

That's rather the point. There' is of course an alternative theory played out in the Mummer's Farce that he will be raised from the dead by our Mel, who is of course handy situated. There are a number of problems with this - starting off with the possibility of her being complicit in the assassination and having no experience of such a trick, but ultimately the fact that Jon is not dead, but removed to a different body [Ghost]. On the other hand the Ghost/Jon travelling north not only works but makes sense of it all.

[Mithras]

Quote

“The fires show me much and more,” murmured Melisandre. “faces and shapes, the morrow and the day after, the path ahead and the path not taken. I have seen your rangers riding through the storm, Jon Snow, with pale shadows all around them. It is you who leads the riders, with your beast beside you. Behind come twenty men in black… and one woman all in red.”

At this moment, Jon was thinking of leading a ranging party to deal with the mutineers at Crasters and at the same time, find out what happened to the rest of wildlings scattered to the Haunted Forest after Stannis defeated Mance.

This woman is obviously not Mel. But who else might she be? I think I know the answer.

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Jon I

“One day on a ranging we brought down a fine big elk. We were skinning it when the smell of blood drew a shadow-cat out of its lair. I drove it off, but not before it shredded my cloak to ribbons. Do you see? Here, here, and here?” He chuckled. “It shredded my arm and back as well, and I bled worse than the elk. My brothers feared I might die before they got me back to Maester Mullin at the Shadow Tower, so they carried me to a wildling village where we knew an old wisewoman did some healing. She was dead, as it happened, but her daughter saw to me. Cleaned my wounds, sewed me up, and fed me porridge and potions until I was strong enough to ride again. And she sewed up the rents in my cloak as well, with some scarlet silk from Asshai that her grandmother had pulled from the wreck of a cog washed up on the Frozen Shore. It was the greatest treasure she had, and her gift to me.”

 

> Grandmother, found the scarlet silk from Asshai, dead

>> her daughter, old wisewoman, dead

>>> her daughter, healed Mance and patched up his cloak with scarlet silk, unknown status

I think the woman all in red is either the one who healed Mance or an unrevealed daughter of her (i.e. >>>>). I am leaning towards the unrevealed daughter being the one. But I don’t think we will see her in TWoW. I believe GRRM introduced a replacement for her in ADwD and she is none other than Morna White Mask, who is a warrior witch wearing a weirwood mask.

The daughter of the old wisewoman healed Mance from a fatal wound before he bled to death. The last we saw Jon, he was bleeding to death just like Mance after getting shredded by the shadowcat. This connection is not a coincidence IMO. Morna White Mask will somehow be instrumental in Jon’s healing/resurrection (whichever case you believe).

[LynnS]

On 1/17/2023 at 2:31 AM, Mithras said:

Ghost could sense Summer beyond the Wall only when he poked his nose through the bars. In these drafts, Ghost wanted to range beyond the Wall so bad that I think Jon's refusal to seal the gates contrary to Marsh's suggestion was rooted in this feeling. 

Ah yes!  The small but significant plot point .  What or who is compelling Ghost to go beyond the Wall and for what purpose?  It's Ghost that leads Jon to the cache of obsidian and the broken horn.

This might also be another small but significant plot point:

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Prologue

The things below moved, but did not live. One by one, they raised their heads toward the three wolves on the hill. The last to look was the thing that had been Thistle. She wore wool and fur and leather, and over that she wore a coat of hoarfrost that crackled when she moved and glistened in the moonlight. Pale pink icicles hung from her fingertips, ten long knives of frozen blood. And in the pits where her eyes had been, a pale blue light was flickering, lending her coarse features an eerie beauty they had never known in life.

She sees me.

 

It suggests that the WWs and the wights can see a warg or skinchanger within their host animal.

[Melifeather]

5 hours ago, Mithras said:

Quote

“The fires show me much and more,” murmured Melisandre. “faces and shapes, the morrow and the day after, the path ahead and the path not taken. I have seen your rangers riding through the storm, Jon Snow, with pale shadows all around them. It is you who leads the riders, with your beast beside you. Behind come twenty men in black… and one woman all in red.”

At this moment, Jon was thinking of leading a ranging party to deal with the mutineers at Crasters and at the same time, find out what happened to the rest of wildlings scattered to the Haunted Forest after Stannis defeated Mance.

This woman is obviously not Mel. But who else might she be? I think I know the answer.

Quote

What book and chapter is the above quote from? It won't come up for me on asearchoficeandfire .

Edited to add: Never mind. I see now that the quote was from an earlier text, one that GRRM changed. It is dumb though, because it sounds like Melisandre is telling Jon that she saw herself in the vision and that's why Jon laughed and said it was absurd.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Melifeather

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Ah yes!  The small but significant plot point .  What or who is compelling Ghost to go beyond the Wall and for what purpose?  It's Ghost that leads Jon to the cache of obsidian and the broken horn.

This might also be another small but significant plot point:

It suggests that the WWs and the wights can see a warg or skinchanger within their host animal.

I thought that this one was interesting:

"The snow was falling where his brother was, covering all the woods in white. And there were hunters near, living men and dead men, and the ones who wore the shapes of men but smelled only of cold."

"The ones who wore the shapes of men but smelled only of cold" is a superb description of the Walkers if we accept them as wargs forming temporary bodies of snow and ice and cold as discussed in previous heresies.

The dead hunters are obviously wights

But who are the "living men" ?  Ghost seems to sense that all three are working together. 

[Matthew.]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

It suggests that the WWs and the wights can see a warg or skinchanger within their host animal.

This is the way I interpret that passage as well, which I believe is further supported by the fact that Thistle has clawed out her physical eyes--Varamyr is being 'seen' in a magical and spiritual sense, and he can feel that the thing that has raised Thistle is looking upon him.

Later in ADWD, Melisandre 'sees' Bran and Bloodraven in her fires, so the concept of magic users, dreamers, and seers glimpsing one another is not unique to the magic of the old gods, but even so, I believe that the overall context of the Varamry prologue - elaborating on skinchanger powers and taboos, the moment where Varamyr's spirit is riding the cold winds, and the final moment where Varamry is 'seen' - is meant to hint at the idea that there exists a relationship between skinchanging, the weirwoods, and the Others.

[Matthew.]

21 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Referring to the Nightfort as the "heart of the Wall" is of a piece with her descriptions of the Wall as a source of power. It also, moving on, suggests that the Nights King was a product of that power, ie; we're not going to see a return of the Nights King [GRRM has already dismissed him] but there could well be a "curse" on anybody forting up there at the present time.  

As you know from prior discussions, I don't really agree with you regarding the 13th LC--not that I think he's definitely still around, just that I believe that the continued existence of the NK is a viable prospect, in the same way that I think the other Kings of Winter could still be out there, assuming that some (or all) of them became Others.

That said, to your point about the Nightfort, I also feel that the longstanding "Stannis becomes NK 2.0" theory is plausible, and that that Melisandre comment adds a bit of narrative momentum to that notion.

He has lost more and more of himself to fuel Melisandre's shadows, Melisandre is eager to perform a sacrifice, and Stannis's cause seems destined for disaster--regardless of whether he wins or loses at Winterfell, he's not going to have the resources to push south or defend the Wall, which seems to all be setting the stage for Stannis to make a desperate choice at the Nightfort.

There's also the HotU vision of a blue eyed king whose sword glows like sunset--rather than glowing like the dawn.

[Mithras]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

But who are the "living men" ?  Ghost seems to sense that all three are working together. 

The mutineers from Crasters.

[Black Crow]

17 minutes ago, Mithras said:

The mutineers from Crasters.

Might be, but I'm not convinced that they are "hunting" rather than hunted

[Black Crow]

Anent, Jon/Ghost running north, I'm very much reminded of an old SSM - I think a newspaper or magazine article - where GRRM was grumbling about writer's block and by way of example spoke of Jon being pursued through the forest and wondering where he could find food. It obviously didn't tell us much but would be entirely consistent with Jon/Ghost escaping.  The need for food sounds very Ghost-like

[Black Crow]

45 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

As you know from prior discussions, I don't really agree with you regarding the 13th LC--not that I think he's definitely still around, just that I believe that the continued existence of the NK is a viable prospect, in the same way that I think the other Kings of Winter could still be out there, assuming that some (or all) of them became Others.
 

Oh I agree. I fully expect that he will turn up as a Nazgul/Walker, but not as the big bad of the Mummer's Farce - and yes Stannis seems much more likely

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

I believe that the overall context of the Varamry prologue - elaborating on skinchanger powers and taboos

Agree, most of is an info dump on wargs, background on what wargs are and what they can do.

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

the moment where Varamyr's spirit is riding the cold winds, and the final moment where Varamry is 'seen' - is meant to hint at the idea that there exists a relationship between skinchanging, the weirwoods, and the Others.

Yes!  Like this idea so much more than Ghost becomes a temporary container for Jon's spirit, so he can magically be brought back and continue on as if he was never dead. Also, I found this quote in the Wiki and feel it pertains to all the undead, not just Beric:  According to George R. R. Martin, "Beric is no longer a living being after his first death; his heart does not beat and blood does not flow through his veins. In Martin's own words, Beric is "a wight animated by fire instead of by ice"     Time: George R. R. Martin on the One Game of Thrones He 'Argued Against', July 13, 2017"

If Jon dies and is reanimated, he would be an ice wight, but what applies to Beric would apply to him. Also, if Jon dies, he is released from the NW vows.  Which would set the stage for him and Ghost to head North, whether both in Ghost, or Ghost and dead man walking, Jon.