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Heresy 245 The Alpha and the Omega and what lies between


Black Crow
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8 hours ago, Mithras said:

This connection is not a coincidence IMO. Morna White Mask will somehow be instrumental in Jon’s healing/resurrection (whichever case you believe).

Morna was sent to Queensgate which seems fairly close to Castle Black.  Also, Val may have some healing skills that can aid Jon, perhaps until Morna arrives.

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6 minutes ago, LongRider said:

If Jon dies and is reanimated, he would be an ice wight, but what applies to Beric would apply to him. Also, if Jon dies, he is released from the NW vows.  Which would set the stage for him and Ghost to head North, whether both in Ghost, or Ghost and dead man walking, Jon.

I think that Jon in Ghost will fit with where the story is going rather than Ghost plus wight.

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4 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Morna was sent to Queensgate which seems fairly close to Castle Black.  Also, Val may have some healing skills that can aid Jon, perhaps until Morna arrives.

All things are possible, but Jon/Ghost escaping north into the Haunted Forest to find Bran seems more like what we can expect from GRRM. Jon as Beric seems a touch pointless and leaves Bran unrescued

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14 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

All things are possible, but Jon/Ghost escaping north into the Haunted Forest to find Bran seems more like what we can expect from GRRM. Jon as Beric seems a touch pointless and leaves Bran unrescued

Oh, you want Jon/Ghost to rescue Bran then? Chewy thought.  Bran may be able to contact Jon/Ghost, as he did before on the Skirling Pass.  

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Might be, but I'm not convinced that they are "hunting" rather than hunted

Well, they might have come across the tracks of the great elk they were riding and followed them. Initially they were the hunters but they ended up being prey.

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2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

But who are the "living men" ?  Ghost seems to sense that all three are working together. 

Crasters sons maybe?  I've never been quite convinced that they were sacrificed or turned into white walkers, at least not as infants. I'm not sure this is necessary if the WWs are warg souls encased in ice and snow and cold.  What has happened to Crasters wives, since they didn't go to the Wall with the rest of the wildings?  We know it's possible to survive in the cave networks and we also know that Craster was giving up his livestock.  Sounds like provender for the living to me.

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32 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Oh, you want Jon/Ghost to rescue Bran then? Chewy thought.  Bran may be able to contact Jon/Ghost, as he did before on the Skirling Pass.  

I'm sure that he will contact them, but he doesn't have legs. And yes it could be chewy - and make sense too if Rickon is also to be found

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I can see a scenario where Jon's spirit goes into Ghost only to return to his body once magic is invoked. Either Melisandre will perform the rite or perhaps Val, but I don't see him remaining inside of Ghost. I think skinchangers have to slip into other humans while they are still alive and have the strength. Varamyr likely wasn't strong enough (he was dying) when he tried to enter Thistle and that's why he wasn't successful. The Starks are tethered to their wolves so the connection is already there. It's like his second body.

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26 minutes ago, Mithras said:

I think Val will take Jon's body to Queensgate.

Yah, I'm kind of expecting Val, Morna, Tormund and Borroq to intervene before Mel can do anything..  When we left him; Borroq was hanging out in Castle Black's lichyard.  There are crypts as well as graves.

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I agree with the intervention by Borroq - there has to be a reason for him there - but I think it will be much more straightforward

Jon's human body has been killed

but

As he died his last thought was "Ghost"

GRRM famously commented "oh you think he's dead do you"

Jon is still alive, but has shifted to Ghost

Borroq realises this

Borroq arranges for Ghost to escape [with Jon] to the Haunted Forest

Edited by Black Crow
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On 1/17/2023 at 2:31 AM, Mithras said:

"New" material at last ;)

Thank you for posting this info btw.  I've heard of this archive and there were questions raised on another podcast about this very reddit post, I think.  At the time, nobody seemed to know anything about the specifics.

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3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Thank you for posting this info btw.  I've heard of this archive and there were questions raised on another podcast about this very reddit post, I think.  At the time, nobody seemed to know anything about the specifics.

IIRC, Elio talked about the removed info about Maelys the Monstrous many years ago.

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3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'm sure that he will contact them, but he doesn't have legs. And yes it could be chewy - and make sense too if Rickon is also to be found

Bran didn't have legs when he visited the dreaming/warging Jon on the Skirling Pass.  If GhostJon pass through the Wall, Bran contacting Jon would be easy, and, Ghost could call Summer!  Direwolf howling helps their wounded humans after all.

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On 1/18/2023 at 8:49 AM, Mithras said:

At this moment, Jon was thinking of leading a ranging party to deal with the mutineers at Crasters and at the same time, find out what happened to the rest of wildlings scattered to the Haunted Forest after Stannis defeated Mance.

This woman is obviously not Mel. But who else might she be? I think I know the answer.

> Grandmother, found the scarlet silk from Asshai, dead

>> her daughter, old wisewoman, dead

>>> her daughter, healed Mance and patched up his cloak with scarlet silk, unknown status

I think the woman all in red is either the one who healed Mance or an unrevealed daughter of her (i.e. >>>>). I am leaning towards the unrevealed daughter being the one. But I don’t think we will see her in TWoW. I believe GRRM introduced a replacement for her in ADwD and she is none other than Morna White Mask, who is a warrior witch wearing a weirwood mask.

The daughter of the old wisewoman healed Mance from a fatal wound before he bled to death. The last we saw Jon, he was bleeding to death just like Mance after getting shredded by the shadowcat. This connection is not a coincidence IMO. Morna White Mask will somehow be instrumental in Jon’s healing/resurrection (whichever case you believe).

I'm inclined to disagree.

There's no alternative candidate so far and I think that Mel is simply warning Jon that if he does go ranging, she will go too

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14 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm sorry, removed info?

As Takiedevushkikakzvezdy says, its discussed in the Reddit info dump published by Mithras. It was some detailed info on the War of the Ninepenny Kings. It didn't make it into the book but was used for a game so Elio reckoned it was only cut to save space rather than because GRRM had changed his mind. ie; it can [tentatively of course] be regarded as "factual"

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2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'm inclined to disagree.

There's no alternative candidate so far and I think that Mel is simply warning Jon that if he does go ranging, she will go too

She doesn't have the authority to command Jon though. If he says no to her (and considering that he is even more distrustful of her in this draft compared to the published version, he will say no to her), then she will stay back. Besides, this was a proper vision and if the red woman in the vision was herself, Mel would know it and tell it. Like the grey girl on a dying horse, GRRM might have planned Mel as the misdirection in this case.

Edited by Mithras
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