Aehole targaryen Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 8 hours ago, Melifeather said: All of these theories have been discussed over the years in the past Heresy threads. I've noticed you guys have generated a Gergor of content. It will take me a few years to catch up, so sorry if I repeat old topics that have been discussed to death. Any heresies on House Dayne? Sly Wren and LynnS 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 25, 2023 Author Share Posted January 25, 2023 14 hours ago, Aehole targaryen said: I'm sure that plays a part, but Summerhall was built by the Targaryens, right? 100-120 years before A Game of Thrones. A fair bit younger than Winterfell. But the presumed ritual that went wrong there wraps up the balance nicely. True and it references another Sherlock Holmes text - the dog that barked in the night. Or rather, of course, it didn't. In this case Aegon Targaryen invaded Westeros and with the aid of his dragons proceeded to conquer everything in sight. Until he got to the North and agreed a treaty with the Lord of Winterfell. Then down south the Targaryens build Summerhall which has a so far undisclosed significance. LynnS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aehole targaryen Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 2 hours ago, Black Crow said: In this case Aegon Targaryen invaded Westeros and with the aid of his dragons proceeded to conquer everything in sight. Until he got to the North and agreed a treaty with the Lord of Winterfell. I assume this has been analysed thoroughly in these threads? Something like Torrhen Stark deciding that the Gardenering of the Starks would result in a Long Night and thus not worth it? Or does the Heresy go deeper still? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, Aehole targaryen said: I've noticed you guys have generated a Gergor of content. It will take me a few years to catch up, so sorry if I repeat old topics that have been discussed to death. Any heresies on House Dayne? I didn't mean to imply that we're against revisiting old topics. On the contrary! We enjoy digging these things up and sometimes we find that we've moved away from a specific theory and towards another. So, have at it! Post whatever interests you! 4 hours ago, Black Crow said: True and it references another Sherlock Holmes text - the dog that barked in the night. Or rather, of course, it didn't. In this case Aegon Targaryen invaded Westeros and with the aid of his dragons proceeded to conquer everything in sight. Until he got to the North and agreed a treaty with the Lord of Winterfell. Then down south the Targaryens build Summerhall which has a so far undisclosed significance. I had a momentary lapse and forgot about how Torrhen could have fit with the wildling origin story since he's the Stark lord that famously bent the knee. You know, the weirwood arrows that Brandon Stark was to shoot at Aegon's dragons might not have been literal, but metaphorical if Brandon was actually the greenseer in the lower level of the crypts. Edited January 25, 2023 by Melifeather LynnS and Aejohn the Conqueroo 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 9 hours ago, Aehole targaryen said: I've noticed you guys have generated a Gergor of content. It will take me a few years to catch up, so sorry if I repeat old topics that have been discussed to death. Ha! No need to apologize--the threads go all over. No need to re-read them all. 9 hours ago, Aehole targaryen said: Any heresies on House Dayne? Well--I personally have a lot of interest in the Daynes, but I'm not sure how popular they are on Heresy. But some ideas I've seen floated: The Daynes and the Starks are connected: the Daynes being tied to the Sword of the Morning, the Starks being tied to the Night's King who was thrown down. A Dayne/Sword of the Morning was the "brother" (either by blood or a "brother" of the Watch) who threw down the Night's King. Dawn is the Night's King sword, taken from him when he abused his power, then taken south to protect it from misuse. That would explain how the Daynes bestow Dawn only on a worthy Dayne. And it would explain why GRRM brings in the story of Galladon of Morne and his sword Just Maid. I'm sure there are others--but these are at least a few I've seen for a while. LynnS and EggBlue 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alienarea Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 Dawn seems to be missing. Ned claims he returned it to House Dayne, but is this true? If Dawn is the sword of the Night King, maybe Ned picking it up after defeating Arthur Dayne triggered the rise of the White Walkers? And that is what Mance will do in the crypts - remove Dawn from the Night's King buried there and thus ending the White Walkers? Sly Wren 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takiedevushkikakzvezdy Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, alienarea said: Dawn seems to be missing. Ned claims he returned it to House Dayne, but is this true? Yes, GRRM said that Dawn remains at Starfall until someone who is worthy of it appears. Edited February 1, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy EggBlue and Sly Wren 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EggBlue Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 17 minutes ago, alienarea said: Dawn seems to be missing. Ned claims he returned it to House Dayne, but is this true? If Dawn is the sword of the Night King, maybe Ned picking it up after defeating Arthur Dayne triggered the rise of the White Walkers? And that is what Mance will do in the crypts - remove Dawn from the Night's King buried there and thus ending the White Walkers? Daynes already have more than enough reasons to hate Ned. If he'd taken Dawn too, I can't imagine what makes them name their heir after him. Sly Wren 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 3 hours ago, alienarea said: If Dawn is the sword of the Night King, maybe Ned picking it up after defeating Arthur Dayne triggered the rise of the White Walkers? Yup! Though I'd say it's more than "picking it up." A Night's King descendant killed the Day's King descendant. Note that when Ned fights Arthur (the last one he sees before the fight in his dream) the blue rose petals that fly are "blue as the eyes of death." Far as I can tell, that's the only time something is compared to the Wights'/Others' eyes anywhere in the novels. Really think that was a tipping point--Night's King wasn't supposed to win back the sword. Ned's taking it to Starfall--I do wonder what effect it had that the Night's King's descendant gave the sword back to the Day's King's family. Though I also think there's a decent chance Arthur (or any Sword of the Morning) really shouldn't have been using Dawn in service to the Dragon. 3 hours ago, alienarea said: And that is what Mance will do in the crypts - remove Dawn from the Night's King buried there and thus ending the White Walkers? Well, as stated above, GRRM is really clear--Dawn waits at Starfall. So, not in crypt. Also, GRRM has made it really clear--House Dayne chooses a worthy Dayne to bestow the sword on. If there isn't a current worthy Dayne, they just wait for the next generation. And if a chosen Dayne becomes unworthy, he's supposed to return it--World Book has a story of a Sword of the Evening giving up Dawn. So, maybe Dawn will be stolen. But really, really think GRRM is waiting to get it to a "worthy Dayne." Most likely Jon. And that could restore the balance. At least for a while. EggBlue, Melifeather and LongRider 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 3 hours ago, EggBlue said: Daynes already have more than enough reasons to hate Ned. If he'd taken Dawn too, I can't imagine what makes them name their heir after him. Yup! It can't be the fact that Ned returned the sword that makes them like him so much. Something else is up. I've got theories--but one way or another, there's a bunch of the story missing about why Ned regrets Arthur's death so much (according to Bran)--and why the Daynes admire Ned so much that the current Lord of Starfall thinks it's cool that he's milk brothers with the Bastard of Winterfell. EggBlue and LynnS 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 8 hours ago, Sly Wren said: Well, as stated above, GRRM is really clear--Dawn waits at Starfall. So, not in crypt. Also, GRRM has made it really clear--House Dayne chooses a worthy Dayne to bestow the sword on. If there isn't a current worthy Dayne, they just wait for the next generation. And if a chosen Dayne becomes unworthy, he's supposed to return it--World Book has a story of a Sword of the Evening giving up Dawn. Yes he said that and didn't he also say that someone who is not a Dayne could claim the sword? I wonder how the Dayne's choose who is worthy. Maybe the sword chooses who is worthy? I'm thinking of the potential magical aspects. So perhaps a Dayne like Ser Arthur has the necessary virtues for House Dayne to bestow it; but I wonder about accessing its real power - its potential as a sword of light. Sly Wren 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EggBlue Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 12 minutes ago, LynnS said: didn't he also say that someone who is not a Dayne could claim the sword? he said that? in the world book specifically says a knight of house Dayne and any doubt I had was gone with this line : " There are boys who secretly dream of being a son of Starfall so they might claim that storied sword and its title" LynnS and Sly Wren 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 4 hours ago, LynnS said: Yes he said that and didn't he also say that someone who is not a Dayne could claim the sword? According to this SSM, it's only a Dayne. “George said the Sword of the Morning is always a member of House Dayne, someone who is deemed worthy of wielding Dawn as decided within the House, that whoever it is would have to earn the right to wield it.” http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/US_Signing_Tour_Albuquerque_NM 4 hours ago, LynnS said: I wonder how the Dayne's choose who is worthy. Maybe the sword chooses who is worthy? I'm thinking of the potential magical aspects. So perhaps a Dayne like Ser Arthur has the necessary virtues for House Dayne to bestow it; but I wonder about accessing its real power - its potential as a sword of light. I like the idea of the sword choosing worthiness--really seems like there has to be some magic to it. There's also the story of Just Maid, where it's bestowed by a woman--but then only used by Galladon against worthy opponents. Seems like that might be part of the criteria for Dawn? And maybe we're seeing another version of that with Brienne and how careful she is with Oathkeeper. If that "care" is part of it, I', wondering if Arthur went too far in using Dawn . . . And its power for light: I'm still thinking Dawn burns red at the right moment with the right wielder. All the stories of how a magic sword is magic in the novels--the main one is Lightbringer--and the story is awful. It's probably wishful thinking, but I'm hoping the story of Just Maid is closer to the "real" story about the sword that brings light. LynnS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takiedevushkikakzvezdy Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Sly Wren said: According to this SSM, it's only a Dayne. Only a Dayne who is deemed worthy can legally claim it, but it doesn’t mean that someone else can’t steal it. Edited February 2, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy LynnS and Sly Wren 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EggBlue Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 4 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said: Only a Dayne who is deemed worthy can legally claim it, but it doesn’t mean that someone else can’t steal it. please! Dawn wouldn't work for someone unworthy, it'll be just like an ordinary sword.. say, like the elder wand! LynnS and Sly Wren 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takiedevushkikakzvezdy Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 2 minutes ago, EggBlue said: Dawn wouldn't work for someone unworthy But perhaps it could work for someone who is of the night? The man, the myth, the legend. EggBlue, alienarea, LongRider and 1 other 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alienarea Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 17 hours ago, Sly Wren said: Really think that was a tipping point--Night's King wasn't supposed to win back the sword. Ned's taking it to Starfall--I do wonder what effect it had that the Night's King's descendant gave the sword back to the Day's King's family. The White Walkers rose to go to Starfall to claim what's theirs? Sly Wren 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 7 hours ago, Sly Wren said: There's also the story of Just Maid, where it's bestowed by a woman I do like the idea, that traditionally, it's the senior ranked women of House Dayne, who choose the Sword of the Morning from the men in the family. Not sure who is around to make that decision or who is likely to receive it now. I can imagine Sam and Sarella fleeing from the Citadel,to Starfall, ahead of Eurons invasion; and collecting Ned Dayne and the sword, so it doesn't fall into Eurons hands. What has happened to Gilly btw? Didn't Sam tell her to stay on the ship until he returned from the Citadel. I wonder if she left or ended up as cargo on her way to Dany with Marwyn. Sly Wren 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 7 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said: Only a Dayne who is deemed worthy can legally claim it, but it doesn’t mean that someone else can’t steal it. 3 hours ago, EggBlue said: please! Dawn wouldn't work for someone unworthy, it'll be just like an ordinary sword.. say, like the elder wand! 3 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said: But perhaps it could work for someone who is of the night? The man, the myth, the legend. Darkstar could be an excellent catalyst--give him something important to do narratively--stealing that sword. Making a big mess. Moving stuff about. But I agree that he's unlikely to be the Sword of the Morning, being "Of the douchebag-filled night." And I think he may also be a narrative marker: the Night's King/Sword of the Evening covets Dawn. May be showing us what "the Battle for Dawn" really was. . . 2 hours ago, alienarea said: The White Walkers rose to go to Starfall to claim what's theirs? Could be. Or just want Westeros back--kinda depends on what the Others want. If they hate living things as Old Nan says, they'd want free rein. Might also be the Night's King who wants the sword back--if Black Crow is right and he's coming back, dude would want his sword. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takiedevushkikakzvezdy Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 1 minute ago, Sly Wren said: Darkstar could be an excellent catalyst--give him something important to do narratively--stealing that sword. Making a big mess. Moving stuff about. Men call him Darkstar, ladies call him irresistible. EggBlue and Sly Wren 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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