Jump to content

Heresy 245 The Alpha and the Omega and what lies between


Black Crow
 Share

Recommended Posts

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I do like the idea, that traditionally, it's the senior ranked women of House Dayne, who choose the Sword of the Morning from the men in the family.  Not sure who is around to make that decision or who is likely to receive it now.

Yup! I like the Matriarchal implications. And I'm pretty sure Allyria is at Starfall--so, she could be the one? Maybe we're seeing narrative hints of that with her betrothal to Beric, the Lightning Lord? His sigil seems like a tie to the Daynes. Could be a stretch. 

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I can imagine Sam and Sarella fleeing from the Citadel,to Starfall, ahead of Eurons invasion; and collecting Ned Dayne and the sword, so it doesn't fall into Eurons hands.

Loving this scenario!

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

What has happened to Gilly btw?  Didn't Sam tell her to stay on the ship until he returned from the Citadel.  I wonder if she left or ended up as cargo on her way to Dany with Marwyn.

Yeah--I think she's still on the ship. What makes you think she's on the way to Dany? I'm missing something.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

What makes you think she's on the way to Dany? I

I'm under the impression that Marwyn was leaving immediately to take ship for Mereen.  I think he would collect the books Aemon sent to the Citadel, along with Aemon's remains first.  Why not just take the ship and everything on it with him?  Anyway, I think the implications would be interesting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

But I agree that he's unlikely to be the Sword of the Morning, being "Of the douchebag-filled night."

It's commonly accepted in the fandom that the original plan was for Edric Dayne to have Dawn, so I wonder what kind of character he would have become in that scenario. Heroic or villainous?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

It's commonly accepted in the fandom that the original plan was for Edric Dayne to have Dawn, so I wonder what kind of character he would have become in that scenario. Heroic or villainous?

i'm pretty sure his involvement with Beric was to make him people's champion.  I still don't put it past him to eventually wield Dawn.  he is 14 which is the same age as Jon when he got Longclaw.  though,  I personally like for Jon to wield Dawn, if it's going to be important.  it would have to go against some popular theories,  but then it'll respect #1 fantasy rule:  the hero gets the shining blade

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

It's commonly accepted in the fandom that the original plan was for Edric Dayne to have Dawn, so I wonder what kind of character he would have become in that scenario. Heroic or villainous?

I wonder if he feels worthy enough to accept the sword on his own accord.  If Ser Arthur is the standard; the bar is pretty high.  So far, he has been Berics squire for a short time and he has since left the BwB..  Not sure where he is getting his training now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm under the impression that Marwyn was leaving immediately to take ship for Mereen.  I think he would collect the books Aemon sent to the Citadel, along with Aemon's remains first.  Why not just take the ship and everything on it with him?  Anyway, I think the implications would be interesting.

Ooooh! Very interesting. Are you thinking he might be willing to use Mance's kid? Something like that?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

It's commonly accepted in the fandom that the original plan was for Edric Dayne to have Dawn, so I wonder what kind of character he would have become in that scenario. Heroic or villainous?

If this was the original plan, can't see any reason why GRRM would change his mind.

His original plan was to age up the Stark kids to make their stories more adult. When the multi-year gap no longer seemed workable, he then just basically made them into moderate Wonderkids. So, kept to his plan despite their ages.

He's had Ned Dayne in the Appendices since Game--he's had a reason for that kid from the get go. So, if he was planning of Ned Dayne as Sword of the Morning, he'd stick with it.

But I really, really doubt Ned Dayne's the one. I think he's much more likely there to make the necessary connection between Starfall and Winterfell for the reader.  Maybe he'll be the one who transports Dawn to the next Sword of the Morning.

10 hours ago, EggBlue said:

i'm pretty sure his involvement with Beric was to make him people's champion.  I still don't put it past him to eventually wield Dawn.  he is 14 which is the same age as Jon when he got Longclaw.  though,  I personally like for Jon to wield Dawn, if it's going to be important.  it would have to go against some popular theories,  but then it'll respect #1 fantasy rule:  the hero gets the shining blade

Can't see Ned at the wielder. He's Lord of Starfall, a squire, and a narrative help.

But Jon's the one who's been longing all his life to win a greatsword that will give him a family name. And he's the one who has that almost epiphanic moment with the Sword of the Morning when he's spent the previous chapter consistently asking "who am I?"

Theories are just theories--until/unless the next book comes. And then we'll have more theories.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I wonder if he feels worthy enough to accept the sword on his own accord.  If Ser Arthur is the standard; the bar is pretty high.  So far, he has been Berics squire for a short time and he has since left the BwB..  Not sure where he is getting his training now.

Might depend on what the Daynes see as "worthy." 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Ooooh! Very interesting. Are you thinking he might be willing to use Mance's kid? Something like that?

I'm not sure what to make of Marwyn at this point, but I think he falls into the category of dangerous friend.  I don't think he would use Mance's baby for blood magic, although I think he knows more about it than we've been shown ,and if Qyburn's assessment of him is correct; then he's not unwilling to use it.

I think Gilly's value is as an eyewitness to events beyond the Wall and will support what he tells Dany.  Gilly will also create an impression of Jon; having saved the baby and Aemon from Melisandre's machinations.  The sacrificing of children and an elderly relative is not something she will look on with any favor.  A gift of books, essentially from Aemon via Marwyn could be significant.  We don't know what was kept at Castle Blacks library.  

And Dany will have to light another fire.  Perhaps this will have something to do with Aemons remains.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Speaking of which, It's curious that we've never heard about any other Daynes in Kingsguard except Arthur, despite them consistently producing great warriors.

Both Jamie and Ned think that Arthur was the finest knight in the realm.  Not just for his skill as a warrior, but for the quality of his character.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe that Wylla is Ashara Dayne living in her father's home at Starfall under an assumed identity much like Alayne is actually Sansa, pretending to be Littlefinger's daughter living in his household. 

The Dayne family tree is sparse. Edric Dayne is supposedly the son of an unnamed brother of Ashara and named after Ned Stark. Why is he not worthy of the sword Dawn? If his age wasn't inconveniently a year younger than Sansa's I'd be tempted to believe he's Ned's son.

Edric told Arya that when he was born his mother wasn't able to produce enough milk to nurse him so Wylla became his milk-mother. The thing is, women don't produce milk indefinitely. Jon Snow was born in 283 and the wiki estimates that Edric was born 4 years later in 287, so how did Wylla continue to lactate? Unless Edric is older and closer to Jon in age. Alternately, Wylla would need to give birth to another child between Jon and Edric to keep the milk supply going or be a continual wetnurse.

If my suspicions that Jon Snow is Ashara and Ned's son, then he could claim the sword Dawn.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm not sure what to make of Marwyn at this point, but I think he falls into the category of dangerous friend.  I don't think he would use Mance's baby for blood magic, although I think he knows more about it than we've been shown ,and if Qyburn's assessment of him is correct; then he's not unwilling to use it.

Not a pleasant thought. But it's gotta be an option.

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think Gilly's value is as an eyewitness to events beyond the Wall and will support what he tells Dany.  Gilly will also create an impression of Jon; having saved the baby and Aemon from Melisandre's machinations.  The sacrificing of children and an elderly relative is not something she will look on with any favor.  A gift of books, essentially from Aemon via Marwyn could be significant.  We don't know what was kept at Castle Blacks library.  

Could be--Dany is certainly more likely to be more sympathetic to a dead Aemon than whenever she runs into Young Griff/Aegon. 

I also wonder how the "Prince that was Promised" revelation will hit Dany--did Gilly hear Aemon say he thought it could be a girl? Might drive Dany further into her sense of entitlement.

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

And Dany will have to light another fire.  Perhaps this will have something to do with Aemons remains.

Wait--so you are thinking the fire is simply to burn a dead relative? Hmmm . . . if that prophecy is even correct (a big if) that seems rather . . . mundane. . . 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Speaking of which, It's curious that we've never heard about any other Daynes in Kingsguard except Arthur, despite them consistently producing great warriors.

 

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Both Jamie and Ned think that Arthur was the finest knight in the realm.  Not just for his skill as a warrior, but for the quality of his character.

 

4 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Yes, but it still doesn't make sense for him to be the only Dayne to ever join the Kingsguard.

 

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I don't think being selected for the KG is criteria for being the Sword of the Morning.  Likely the other way around.

This is an interesting question.

Not every great house is represented in the KG over time (far as I can tell)--so that may be a factor. 

And we know not every generation has a Sword of the Morning--so that could be a factor, too. Too few Sword of the Mornings were close to the crown.

But if the story of Just Maid is tied to the history of the Sword of the Morning, really could mean that Dawn isn't to be used lightly, let alone regularly in fights. Brine understands this and only uses Oathkeeper rarely.

So--was Arthur making a mistake by agreeing to be in the KG? Is his service to the Dragon part of what helped open the door to the Others' return? 

It would explain why no other Sword of the Morning has served the Dragon--Arthur messed up, probably to help his best friend. 

And it would explain the significance of the fight between Ned and Arthur--not just a Night's King vs. Day's King. But a Night's King trying to do the right thing against a Day's King who screwed up and used Dawn in service to Aerys the Wannabe Dragon.

We may even have an echo of it in Ned's execution: the Stark leave Winterfell to serve the crown and ends up executed with Ice, a sword which is a stand in for an older, lost sword named Ice.

Milkglass Dawn looks a lot like ice. . . . Definitely looks like an Others' sword. 

Both Ned and Arthur served the wrong power--the Game of Thrones--instead of just taking care of the people and the land--the lesson we see Jon learn at the Wall. And so Ned and Arthur both end up executed with their own swords.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I believe that Wylla is Ashara Dayne living in her father's home at Starfall under an assumed identity much like Alayne is actually Sansa, pretending to be Littlefinger's daughter living in his household. 

I'm more partial to the theory that Sansa as Alayne and Arya as all of her aliases is giving us in for about Lyanna, not Ashara. But your scenario has to be on the table.

5 hours ago, Melifeather said:

The Dayne family tree is sparse. Edric Dayne is supposedly the son of an unnamed brother of Ashara and named after Ned Stark. Why is he not worthy of the sword Dawn? If his age wasn't inconveniently a year younger than Sansa's I'd be tempted to believe he's Ned's son.

Or--the Daynes just didn't name a Sword of the Morning that generation. GRRM makes it sound like it's not that unusual for the Daynes to leave the position open for a while. That it's less about someone being "un" worthy and more about someone being super-duper worthy.

5 hours ago, Melifeather said:

If my suspicions that Jon Snow is Ashara and Ned's son, then he could claim the sword Dawn.

1. This is still my biggest hope for Jon's parentage. I don't think it's happening, but I'm not giving up yet!

2. In the World Book and GRRM's SSM, only someone "of House Dayne" can be Sword of the Morning. 

So far in the novels, people are only described as "of a House" if their father is from that house. IE: Even at Riverrun, I don't think Robb was even called "of House Tully." It's a phrase that always seems tied to paternity. And to fathers--not grandfathers, grandmothers, etc.

If that holds, and if Jon is the next Sword of the Morning, his daddy's a Dayne.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

If this was the original plan, can't see any reason why GRRM would change his mind.

His original plan was to age up the Stark kids to make their stories more adult. When the multi-year gap no longer seemed workable, he then just basically made them into moderate Wonderkids. So, kept to his plan despite their ages.

He's had Ned Dayne in the Appendices since Game--he's had a reason for that kid from the get go. So, if he was planning of Ned Dayne as Sword of the Morning, he'd stick with it.

Even so, 12 years old is too young to become Sword of the Morning, he is still just a squire at this point. Which is probably why GRRM created Darkstar. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I believe that Wylla is Ashara Dayne living in her father's home at Starfall under an assumed identity much like Alayne is actually Sansa, pretending to be Littlefinger's daughter living in his household. 

The Dayne family tree is sparse. Edric Dayne is supposedly the son of an unnamed brother of Ashara and named after Ned Stark. Why is he not worthy of the sword Dawn? If his age wasn't inconveniently a year younger than Sansa's I'd be tempted to believe he's Ned's son.

Edric told Arya that when he was born his mother wasn't able to produce enough milk to nurse him so Wylla became his milk-mother. The thing is, women don't produce milk indefinitely. Jon Snow was born in 283 and the wiki estimates that Edric was born 4 years later in 287, so how did Wylla continue to lactate? Unless Edric is older and closer to Jon in age. Alternately, Wylla would need to give birth to another child between Jon and Edric to keep the milk supply going or be a continual wetnurse.

If my suspicions that Jon Snow is Ashara and Ned's son, then he could claim the sword Dawn.

I do like Sansa/Ashara parallel. but, Wylla/Alayne doesn't align at all. Wylla is a servant, Alayne is a bastard lady. their roles, purpose and connection to the family are different. then of course there's the logistics part that should be considered to a degree. if Wylla is indeed Ashara, then Daynes have turned their daughter/sister into a servant . not to mention, this situation doesn't explain a Ned Stark involvement at all... if anything, it would make Daynes hate Ned even more. what with Knocking up their sister, leaving her to be a servant, and killing Arthur who was doing his job. the fact that Wylla was both Ned's and Jon's wet nurse simply means that she has at least 2 children: one is 15 , the other is 12. 

I still tend to stick to my theory that Ashara is Lemore and that Ned has covered for her and house Dayne.

7 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Yes, but it still doesn't make sense for him to be the only Dayne to ever join the Kingsguard.

he clearly fucked up there! maybe that's why he always has a "sad smile" in memories! he was the perfect knight and had to stop being the perfect knight to be the perfect Kingsgaurd. likely, by the end he was neither.

one could say Arthur made the choice that Jon's friends stopped him to do. Arthur chose to be a kingsgaurd to be by his brother's(Rhaegar's) side, while Jon was persuaded not to follow his brother(Robb) . 

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

If that holds, and if Jon is the next Sword of the Morning, his daddy's a Dayne.

aaand ... another cover up by Ned Stark for Daynes. I mean, what did Robert do to Rhaegar's family when he thought Rhaegar has hooked up with Lyanna?! 

2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Even so, 12 years old is too young to become Sword of the Morning, he is still just a squire at this point. Which is probably why GRRM created Darkstar. 

totally plausible. but what a disappointing development! a man of the night instead of the knight in shining armor:(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Wait--so you are thinking the fire is simply to burn a dead relative? Hmmm . . . if that prophecy is even correct (a big if) that seems rather . . . mundane. . . 

Well, no.  I expect these fires she has to light to have some kind of magical component.  We've been primed by the show to expect Dany to burn the Khals and walk out of the fire unburnt again.  I'm just not sure it will happen that way.  IIRC George said that Drogos funeral pyre was a one-time miraculous event.  So I don't think she was given permanent immunity to fire.  And does she need that when Drogon is likely to attack anyone who threatens her?  

So I don't know what the fires will be.  However, there must be a reason why George has preserved Aemons body, in alcohol, no less.  Someone has to give him a fiery funeral and I think that's likely to be Dany, if Marwyn does take Aemons remains with him.

I imagine something less mundane and rather spectacular.  A funeral pyre a big as Julius Caesars and pyrotechnics befitting an alcohol soaked body.   He is also kings blood and this would make Melisandres leach burning look like childs play.  I wonder what Dany will see in the flames this time.  Pure speculation, but that's what I imagine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...