Heresy 245 The Alpha and the Omega and what lies between

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

I hope you are all healthy and safe. Just checking if there is anything new. Maybe a new crackpot? Nothing.

In my book Westworld season 5 got cancelled because Dolores didn't want to migrate to the Planetos theme park and Hurley was too lazy to move the island.

Cheers!  I'm over the covid.  It took about 10 days and lots of sleep.  I've been thinking about the Sky Gods lately and I might have something in a week or so...

[LynnS]

I saw a fascinating demonstration of ChatGPT on The Philosophers Games podcast the other day!  It just amazes me how far technology has progressed.

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by LynnS

[alienarea]

On 3/1/2023 at 7:10 AM, LynnS said:

I saw a fascinating demonstration of ChatGPT on The Philosophers Games podcast the other day!  It just amazes me how far technology has progressed.

 

Maybe we could feed ChatGPT with the five books by GRRM plus our heresies and ask it to write TWOW?

[Back in Black-Snow]

5 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Maybe we could feed ChatGPT with the five books by GRRM plus our heresies and ask it to write TWOW?

I listened to a pod cast the other day that said because of this technology (and future versions), in the next 5-10 years 1 out of every 4 or 5 colleges and universities will close down and board up the windows.

[LynnS]

Something interesting - The year without a sun 536 - 560 AD:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_winter_of_536#:~:text=Modern scholarship has determined that,the atmosphere for several years.

GRRM's inspiration for the Long Night perhaps?

 

 

[Matthew.]

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

Something interesting - The year without a sun 536 - 560 AD:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_winter_of_536#:~:text=Modern scholarship has determined that,the atmosphere for several years.

GRRM's inspiration for the Long Night perhaps?

 

I had a similar thought when I read about the Mount Tambora eruption of the 1800s a while back, but I wasn't familiar with the volcanic winter of 536; as you suggest, I think some of the surviving historical accounts might have given GRRM some creative inspiration.

At a minimum, I think such accounts could have inspired the general "feel" of GRRM's ice apocalypse, but just as there are some potentially interesting prospects related to comets and impact winters with regards to the Long Night, I feel similar potential exists for a volcanic winter.

I don't have a specific theory in mind, but a volcanic winter is the sort of thing that could potentially be connected to either the ascent and decline of dragons (eg, activity around the Fourteen Flames), or to the magic of the CotF; for example, if the magic of the Old Gods could be used to instigate the Hammer of the Waters, perhaps it could also be used to induce abrupt and catastrophic volcanic activity.

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I had a similar thought when I read about the Mount Tambora eruption of the 1800s a while back, but I wasn't familiar with the volcanic winter of 536; as you suggest, I think some of the surviving historical accounts might have given GRRM some creative inspiration.

The idea that the sun hid its face and the darkness started in the North, affecting the globe; mirrors descriptions of the year with no sun.  Starting at 26 minutes:

 

[alienarea]

It would be an ironic twist, and I think on GRRM would like, if people in Westeros blame not being faithful to the old gods, breaking the pact with the CotF, slaying parts of your family, or a combination of those, for the long night, ...

... when it is really caused by some huge volcano(s) blowing up in the Essos.

Epilogue: the volcano(s) blowing up are caused by the Targaryen's creating dragons.

The Targaryens caused the long night!

PS: yes, he said it was magic and the moon split.

Mountains of the moon became a volcano.

 

[Black Crow]

13 hours ago, alienarea said:

It would be an ironic twist, and I think on GRRM would like, if people in Westeros blame not being faithful to the old gods, breaking the pact with the CotF, slaying parts of your family, or a combination of those, for the long night, ...

... when it is really caused by some huge volcano(s) blowing up in the Essos.

Epilogue: the volcano(s) blowing up are caused by the Targaryen's creating dragons.

The Targaryens caused the long night!

PS: yes, he said it was magic and the moon split.

Mountains of the moon became a volcano.

 

Its not a bad idea. If we look at this logically [yes, yes, I know] Westeros and Essos both seem very ordinary and we've spent years discussing the historical parallels

There are, however, two things which are unique and which can't be explained away by "ordinary" mythology. On the one hand there's the Ice and with it the Long Night and the blue-eyed lot. On the other hand there's the Fire and the Dragons. The two are obviously connected and the Dragons are the more "alien" of the two, ie; it was the creating of the Dragons which screwed things up 

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The two are obviously connected and the Dragons are the more "alien" of the two, ie; it was the creating of the Dragons which screwed things up 

I'm leaning this way too.  Mel says you can't have light without dark; so I'm guessing that the ice side is an unintended consequence of the fire sorcery that created the dragons.  In fact, she generates light to create shadow assassins as witnessed by Davos.  Moqorro might be hinting at the causal event when he talks about the Doom of Valyria; that men delved too deep and there were consequences..  

I think this goes back to the old story of two moons in the sky.  I don't think there were actually two astronomical bodies; but one physical and one metaphysical.  By that I mean someone who can appear as the moon; like Bran when he chases Jon in his wolf-dream.  Something that certain characters can perceive with the third eye.   

Bloodraven tells Bran that the weirwood faces will be the first eyes he will see through but that he will not need that at some point.  This is why Bran was given flying lessons by the 3EC; so he could astral project or fly and view the world from the sky.   The 3EC has mastered that level of magic.  The eyes in the sky that can see across continents as shown in Bran's coma dream.

So getting back to the two moons; was this another who could fly  and came disguised as the moon to those who could perceive it?  When the moon flew too close to the sun (eclipse); she cracked open and a thousand, thousand dragons poured forth.  Are we getting a story about the original mother of dragons and her dragonseed descendants?  Perhaps this is the preternatural event that created dragons fire and air made flesh; and their opposite, ice and air made flesh.

So I lean towards vulcanism to explain why the sun hid it's face; an event that may have taken place when the moon cracked open.

Makes me wonder what will come pouring out of the Blood Moon; monstrous and swollen (pregnant?) as it is.  This appears to be Euron/Sauron's eye in the sky.

[Black Crow]

Something else to consider here is the nature of the blue-eyed lot. Although I contrasted them with the Dragons, I wouldn't necessarily equate them

I still hold by my earlier theory that the Walkers are skinchangers/wargs, who have escaped flesh hosts to create new ones of snow and ice and cold. I won't trouble you by repeating the essay, but the point is that the Walkers may not be new in themselves but are "winterised" Wargs, adapted to suit a Long Night imposed on them by the appearance of the Dragons.

 

 

 

night

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

I contrasted them with the Dragons, I wouldn't necessarily equate them

I was going to say that they are more akin to Mel's lot but opposite.  If there is an analog to dragons; it might be ice spiders.

I still like the idea of winterized wargs.  But were they such in the beginning?

[Black Crow]

14 hours ago, LynnS said:

I still like the idea of winterized wargs.  But were they such in the beginning?

Probably not. Old Nan speaks of them coming for the first time during the Long Night

If we look at this sequence it not only makes sense but completely overturns the popular scenario peddled by Our Mel, ie;

1. Regular seasons and peoples - including [among others] skinchangers/wargs

2. Enter the Dragons and the prospect of the Fiery hell of an endless summer

3. The Old Gods fight back by blocking it with the Long Night

4. This works in the short term but the regular seasons are screwed

5. A final battle is brewing and the Targaryens [and Mel] aint the good guys

[Melifeather]

19 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I still hold by my earlier theory that the Walkers are skinchangers/wargs, who have escaped flesh hosts to create new ones of snow and ice and cold. I won't trouble you by repeating the essay, but the point is that the Walkers may not be new in themselves but are "winterised" Wargs, adapted to suit a Long Night imposed on them by the appearance of the Dragons.

We're somewhat in agreement on this, however I think they can be created from living people just as Melisandre drew life force from Stannis to create her shadow babies. It's just that ice preserves so the shadows don't dissipate. When Tormund told Jon what had happened to his son, Torwynd, I suspect that his actual cause of death was having his life force drawn one too many times. His body became a wight afterward.

 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

Jon had to laugh. "You never change."

"Oh, I do." The grin melted away like snow in summer. "I am not the man I was at Ruddy Hall. Seen too much death, and worse things too. My sons …" Grief twisted Tormund's face. "Dormund was cut down in the battle for the Wall, and him still half a boy. One o' your king's knights did for him, some bastard all in grey steel with moths upon his shield. I saw the cut, but my boy was dead before I reached him. And Torwynd … it was the cold claimed him. Always sickly, that one. He just up and died one night. The worst o' it, before we ever knew he'd died he rose pale with them blue eyes. Had to see to him m'self. That was hard, Jon." Tears shone in his eyes. "He wasn't much of a man, truth be told, but he'd been me little boy once, and I loved him."

 

 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

"Did they trouble you on your way south?"

"They never came in force, if that's your meaning, but they were with us all the same, nibbling at our edges. We lost more outriders than I care to think about, and it was worth your life to fall behind or wander off. Every nightfall we'd ring our camps with fire. They don't like fire much, and no mistake. When the snows came, though … snow and sleet and freezing rain, it's bloody hard to find dry wood or get your kindling lit, and the cold … some nights our fires just seemed to shrivel up and die. Nights like that, you always find some dead come the morning. 'Less they find you first. The night that Torwynd … my boy, he …' Tormund turned his face away.

 

 

[LynnS]

HAH!  My niece is going to be on parade for the King's coronation as part of the Canadian contingent.  There is going to be a Coronation Party in this house!

[Melifeather]

Did you see the Winds cover art that was released by the artist a few days ago? He also has his art for Dream on there as well.

https://www.instagram.com/ertacaltinoz/

[LynnS]

Girlnextgondor is brilliant.  This is really interesting:

 

[alienarea]

I haven't been following the thread as it's obvious we are going in circles since a year or two, maybe five.

With every year passing by the chance of GRRM finishing the series is dwindling.

A while ago I posted that it is perfect as it is, with lose ends everwhere and lots of uncertainties - because this is a mirror of our lives.

I hope all of us live long, happy lives and move on peacefully.

When we move on, there will be things we are not to sure about, like who shot JFK, for example, and things we'll never  know (who will win the world cup in 2122?).

I've decided to focus on other things for the time being.

In case you miss my crackpots or want to keep in touch you can reach me at [email protected]

Take care!

[Black Crow]

On 4/1/2023 at 9:03 PM, alienarea said:

I haven't been following the thread as it's obvious we are going in circles since a year or two, maybe five.

With every year passing by the chance of GRRM finishing the series is dwindling.

A while ago I posted that it is perfect as it is, with lose ends everwhere and lots of uncertainties - because this is a mirror of our lives.

I hope all of us live long, happy lives and move on peacefully.

When we move on, there will be things we are not to sure about, like who shot JFK, for example, and things we'll never  know (who will win the world cup in 2122?).

I've decided to focus on other things for the time being.

In case you miss my crackpots or want to keep in touch you can reach me at [email protected]

Take care!

Yeah, I don't post much myself these days, but I still look in both to the thread and to GRRM's blog. Why ? Well hope springs eternal. Take care of yourself, enjoy those other things [I do too], but at least look in from time to time 

[Melifeather]

@Nadden this thread that I've tagged you on is Heresy 245 The Alpha and the Omega and what lies between. It's the newest Heresy thread. You and I were discussing your black mirror theory on thread 244 (or was it 243?) which is fine since it's not locked yet. But don't worry about hijacking a thread. Heresy is moderated by Black Crow and if he thinks you're hijacking his thread he'll let you know. If he doesn't object, then fire away. We miserable Heretics pride ourselves on maintaining a civil discussion with good humor - especially when we don't agree. We are more likely to tell you the reason "why" we don't agree with something than discourage your ideas with personal attacks.