Heresy 245 The Alpha and the Omega and what lies between

[Nadden]

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

@Nadden this thread that I've tagged you on is Heresy 245 The Alpha and the Omega and what lies between. It's the newest Heresy thread. You and I were discussing your black mirror theory on thread 244 (or was it 243?) which is fine since it's not locked yet. But don't worry about hijacking a thread. Heresy is moderated by Black Crow and if he thinks you're hijacking his thread he'll let you know. If he doesn't object, then fire away. We miserable Heretics pride ourselves on maintaining a civil discussion with good humor - especially when we don't agree. We are more likely to tell you the reason "why" we don't agree with something than discourage your ideas with personal attacks.

Ahhh:) 

Then where were we? 
 

Quote

 

Black mirrors cannot reflect as the color black absorbs light.

The author has made his rules for how obsidian works in this world. The obsidian can be fashioned into a blade or spear and used to break magic spells as demonstrated by Sam when he stabbed the white walker that Heresy has dubbed Ser Puddles. Where was the black mirror there?

The second way obsidian is used is for scrying through a black candle which needs to be lit. We have yet to learn how they are lit, but we do know it’s not with a match or source of fire. Acolytes spend the night trying to light a black candle so I doubt a campfire would do the trick.

The point about negative temperatures being necessary to shatter Waymar’s sword was to support the fact that “frozen fire” would not be cold enough to shatter steel. In fact, obsidian is so brittle it would stand no chance against steel. Waymar could whack his sword repeatedly against an obsidian mountain and never shatter his sword.

 

You’re right that black absorbs. But like your cell phone powered down will reflect the light of a flashlight in a dark room. So does obsidian. But Waymar’s cloak likely makes him invisible in the mirror. That’s how the white shadow appears and disappears when Will initially sees it.

Spells are words believed to do magic. A broken sword with magical runes on it can be said to have had it’s spell broken.

Light from full risen half moon on a cloudy night is what’s lighting the obsidian wall or mirror in front of Waymar.
 

A sword can break and I agree not shatter. 
 

Did you notice the needle in the eye?

Edited April 4, 2023 by Nadden

[Melifeather]

12 hours ago, Nadden said:

Ahhh:) 

Then where were we? 
 

You’re right that black absorbs. But like your cell phone powered down will reflect the light of a flashlight in a dark room. So does obsidian. But Waymar’s cloak likely makes him invisible in the mirror. That’s how the white shadow appears and disappears when Will initially sees it.

Spells are words believed to do magic. A broken sword with magical runes on it can be said to have had it’s spell broken.

Light from full risen half moon on a cloudy night is what’s lighting the obsidian wall or mirror in front of Waymar.
 

A sword can break and I agree not shatter. 
 

Did you notice the needle in the eye?

I will continue to disagree that the rock was obsidian, because the text does not state that, but if it were obsidian, it would be too brittle of a substance to do any real damage to Waymar's sword which shattered after repeated contact with the white walker's magical, blue-ghost-lighted crystal sword (as the text states). This is nearly a direct parallel to the tale of The Last Hero which describes his sword as shattering too.

Rather than use exact temperatures, let's just imagine that the Others bring a cold likened to liquid nitrogen. Temps that cold can shatter metal whether it's bronze, iron, or steel. The power of obsidian lays in its molten form, because it's brittle when cooled. Obsidian is basically glass. Could glass shatter a sword?

Presumably, the reason why obsidian breaks ice magic is because its frozen fire. Sam used an obsidian blade to break the ice magic that held Ser Puddles together. It's a complete contradiction to assert that an inhuman life form created with ice-magic used obsidian as a weapon. 

How do you explain the white walkers that attacked the Fist of the First Men and then followed Sam and Gilly?

The shards of Waymar's sword rained down like needles, bloodying his face. One shard pierced his left pupil turning it white, presumably from the extreme cold. An obsidian shard would not have frozen his pupil, but a metal cooled to liquid nitrogen temperatures would. I'm in agreement with referring to this shard as needle-like, so what distinction are you trying to make with regards to the needle in the eye?

[Black Crow]

I don't think that the thread is being hi-jacked. As Melifeather says, this is the way that Heresy has worked for years 

However...

As I also said earlier. This is a novel, not an account of an actual historical event. It all exists in GRRM's head and on GRRM's pages; nowhere else. So rocks - or mirrors are found there, not our our heads

GRRM describes a report of dead bodies lying around a camp-site with a shelter built against a rock. Then the three rangers actually arrive there and find no bodies. Understandable puzzlement. One ranger remains behind with the horses and drops out of the narrative until much later. Of the other two, one is sent up a tree to see if there is any sign of a fire further away. The remaining ranger advances into the former camp. Movement is seen in the wood. First a single individual emerges to face Ser Waymar, the ranger in the camp, then others join him. Ser Waymar challenges. The two face off and the leading figure fights then kills him. This episode is largely witnessed by the ranger up the tree, but there's no reason to suppose its not happening as described.

At no point in the text is there the remotest suggestion that that the rock against which the shelter is built is a black mirror/obsidian. As I said before, although unlikely this is a fantasy so its possible, but... the author needs to tell us. He doesn't even suggest it. This is important because the object of this chapter is to introduce us to the White Walkers. If it is really intended to reveal them as an illusion in a mirror, then GRRM needs to show that. He needs to reveal it to us on the page, then or afterwards.

Its important on the other hand to introduce the Walkers as real because other characters see them too as the story goes on, most notably thus far when Sam stabs one below the Fist

Edited April 5, 2023 by Black Crow

[Jaimeisnotazombie]

Geez i haven't posted here in 10 years.

I just want to know how you think these mirrors effect the story and what their purpose would be? 

Also if the Others are wargs are they capable of warging Hodor or Patchface? 

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Jaimeisnotazombie said:

Geez i haven't posted here in 10 years.

I just want to know how you think these mirrors effect the story and what their purpose would be? 

Also if the Others are wargs are they capable of warging Hodor or Patchface? 

As to the first, you'll need to ask Nadden, but if I recall aright, his argument was that the White Walkers are not wargs, but reflections in his mirror. I may be mistaken, but he can best explain

As to the second, possibly, but we'll have to wait and see. Clearly Patchface is being controlled by someone [or something] as yet unknown

[Black Crow]

Totally off-topic, but GRRM's latest Notablog entry has announced that HBO are doing a series of the Dunk and Egg stories

[Melifeather]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Totally off-topic, but GRRM's latest Notablog entry has announced that HBO are doing a series of the Dunk and Egg stories

I'm looking forward to that. When the story is narrow like House of the Dragon was in comparison to Game of Thrones, then the series can stick closer to the books. Any casting news? I wonder who would make a good Duncan?

[Frey family reunion]

On 4/15/2023 at 9:23 AM, Melifeather said:

I'm looking forward to that. When the story is narrow like House of the Dragon was in comparison to Game of Thrones, then the series can stick closer to the books. Any casting news? I wonder who would make a good Duncan?

They’re probably not going to cast someone this high profile, but Chris Hemsworth makes a good big doofus.  

[Melifeather]

20 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

They’re probably not going to cast someone this high profile, but Chris Hemsworth makes a good big doofus.  

His Thor character is pretty goofy, but David Michael Bautista Jr. would be better because Duncan isn't deliberately goofy like Chris Hemsworth usually plays. I could see Bautista as being a more subtle doofus. I think Vincent Philip D'Onofrio would be good, but too old. What about Liam Hemsworth? 

Edited April 18, 2023 by Melifeather

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

His Thor character is pretty goofy, but David Michael Bautista Jr. would be better because Duncan isn't deliberately goofy like Chris Hemsworth usually plays. I could see Bautista as being a more subtle doofus. I think Vincent Philip D'Onofrio would be good, but too old. What about Liam Hemsworth? 

According to google, they should cast this guy:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwj9vY3Ui7T-AhX7k2oFHUsLAYAQFnoECCIQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FTom_Hopper&usg=AOvVaw1ee5kvOg1iJ_RPvmxryGzd

 

He’s 6’5” and while he’s 38 it looks like he could pass for some one younger.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

According to google, they should cast this guy:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwj9vY3Ui7T-AhX7k2oFHUsLAYAQFnoECCIQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FTom_Hopper&usg=AOvVaw1ee5kvOg1iJ_RPvmxryGzd

 

He’s 6’5” and while he’s 38 it looks like he could pass for some one younger.

He played Dickon Tarly???

Ya, I think he could do it.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Melifeather

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

According to google, they should cast this guy:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwj9vY3Ui7T-AhX7k2oFHUsLAYAQFnoECCIQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FTom_Hopper&usg=AOvVaw1ee5kvOg1iJ_RPvmxryGzd

 

He’s 6’5” and while he’s 38 it looks like he could pass for some one younger.

I wrote a descriptive command in the AI Discord program Midjourney for the character and it came up with these: 

Dunk

Edited April 18, 2023 by Melifeather

[Frey family reunion]

18 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I wrote a descriptive command in the AI Discord program Midjourney for the character and it came up with these: 

Dunk

That’s kind of neat.  I always pictured him with long hair though.

[Melifeather]

On 4/19/2023 at 10:22 AM, Frey family reunion said:

That’s kind of neat.  I always pictured him with long hair though.

How about this? DUNK

[Melifeather]

On 4/19/2023 at 10:22 AM, Frey family reunion said:

That’s kind of neat.  I always pictured him with long hair though.

It's kind of difficult controlling what AI creates. I have a version of the link I'm about to share with a large pole through his thigh! LOL. Also, arms that end in weird, unnatural weapons. At least I've had a good laugh this morning!

LINK

 

Here's some of the weirder results. Not to mention that he seems to be seated inside the horse!: Unnatural Weapons

Edited April 24, 2023 by Melifeather

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

How about this? DUNK

Yikes, never mind leave him with short hair.

[Back in Black-Snow]

I read somewhere that AI has a particular hard time with creating humans, particularly hands.

[LynnS]

On 4/15/2023 at 5:06 AM, Black Crow said:

Totally off-topic, but GRRM's latest Notablog entry has announced that HBO are doing a series of the Dunk and Egg stories

I am not all that excited about it.  I guess I'll be more interested when it's actually in production.

[Brad Stark]

It will be nice to have another show while we wait for a book that may never be published.

I don't think it is important Dunk be a doofus, the story works even if he has a different personality.  I'd like to see someone tall, as that is probably the most basic aspect of his character, but I don't even think that is necessary.

I don't want Chris Hemsworth, or anyone else that high profile, but especially not someone so old.  Dunk's relationship with Aegon is essentially being like a big brother, in many ways more so than any of his biological brothers.  Casting someone old enough to be his father changes the story entirely, not to mention he'd be an old man when he dies at Summerhall if the show ever gets that far.  Dunk is about 17 at the start of The Hedge Knight and Aegon is about 9, I'd really like to see the show keep those ages.

I'd love to see a martial artist.  There is a good chance that without dragons this show just falls flat.  Upping the choreography to give us better battles and fights is one way to keep the show interesting.  Just having a medieval setting for the show, and a bunch of betrayal and sex is dangerously close to a soap opera.  Dunk in the books is not a technical fighter, and mostly relies on size and strength and street fighting experience over his knightly training, but I do want some good fight scenes.

Even though this is a lead role, it should be very easy to cast.  Dunk is not especially handsome, charming, or clever, nor is he well spoken, and even though he'd be on camera the whole time, he doesn't talk much or have difficult lines or complicated relationships with other characters.  Really any teenage male actor can pull off this role better than someone like Chris Hemsworth.

Aegon will be much harder to cast.  He pretty much has to look Targaryen, although shaving him bald helps make the features fit.  He has much more complicated lines and emotions, is just as central to the story, and you have to cast a little boy believing he can grow into the role.

Edited May 6, 2023 by Brad Stark

[Melifeather]

On 5/6/2023 at 12:44 PM, Brad Stark said:

It will be nice to have another show while we wait for a book that may never be published.

I don't think it is important Dunk be a doofus, the story works even if he has a different personality.  I'd like to see someone tall, as that is probably the most basic aspect of his character, but I don't even think that is necessary.

I don't want Chris Hemsworth, or anyone else that high profile, but especially not someone so old.  Dunk's relationship with Aegon is essentially being like a big brother, in many ways more so than any of his biological brothers.  Casting someone old enough to be his father changes the story entirely, not to mention he'd be an old man when he dies at Summerhall if the show ever gets that far.  Dunk is about 17 at the start of The Hedge Knight and Aegon is about 9, I'd really like to see the show keep those ages.

I'd love to see a martial artist.  There is a good chance that without dragons this show just falls flat.  Upping the choreography to give us better battles and fights is one way to keep the show interesting.  Just having a medieval setting for the show, and a bunch of betrayal and sex is dangerously close to a soap opera.  Dunk in the books is not a technical fighter, and mostly relies on size and strength and street fighting experience over his knightly training, but I do want some good fight scenes.

Even though this is a lead role, it should be very easy to cast.  Dunk is not especially handsome, charming, or clever, nor is he well spoken, and even though he'd be on camera the whole time, he doesn't talk much or have difficult lines or complicated relationships with other characters.  Really any teenage male actor can pull off this role better than someone like Chris Hemsworth.

Aegon will be much harder to cast.  He pretty much has to look Targaryen, although shaving him bald helps make the features fit.  He has much more complicated lines and emotions, is just as central to the story, and you have to cast a little boy believing he can grow into the role.

By the time of Dunk and Egg, there are no dragons. That’s kind of the whole point. Egg thinks if he can hatch dragon eggs he can keep the peace. He started the Targaryen obsession with egg hatching and all the secretive experiments which led to the tragedy at Summerhal. If the show expands the behind the scenes maneuvering and inserts Dunk into situations he’s oblivious to and yet foils the plotters, it could be very entertaining.