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In Defence of Renly


Craving Peaches

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Recently I have seen claims that Renly should have and was obliged to back Stannis as king. I feel that this is being a bit unfair, firstly because Stannis did not make his intention to be king clear until far too late, and secondly Stannis had no proof of the thing that meant Renly had to follow him in the first place.

Stannis waits a good few months after everything has gone down before announcing the incest and his claim. Before this Stannis has been refusing any communications for nine months. How is Renly meant to know what he intends? Renly can't just sit around waiting for Stannis to say something. He thinks Cersei/Lannisters are going to kill him and needs to act fast. The Stormlands alone aren't enough.

Also, after Renly's done the work of raising an army and all, when Stannis shows up out of the blue demanding fealty due to this claim of incest, he has no evidence to back it up. Why should Renly follow Stannis based on him being the 'rightful king' when Stannis has no proof he's the rightful king? Stannis asking Renly to support him with no evidence is just asking Renly to throw away his army and kingship to back a less successful and less popular rebel. Stannis offers Renly nothing he doesn't already have.

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53 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

You should change your name to either Loras Tyrell or Brienne of Tarth, heh.

Haha but in all seriousness though I do think people judge Renly too harshly sometimes. He can't declare for Stannis if he doesn't know whether Stannis wants to be king, and I think it is unreasonable to expect him to follow Stannis as king when Stannis has no proof of the thing that supposedly makes him king and so means Renly should follow him. 

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4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Recently I have seen claims that Renly should have and was obliged to back Stannis as king. I feel that this is being a bit unfair, firstly because Stannis did not make his intention to be king clear until far too late, and secondly Stannis had no proof of the thing that meant Renly had to follow him in the first place.

Stannis waits a good few months after everything has gone down before announcing the incest and his claim. Before this Stannis has been refusing any communications for nine months. How is Renly meant to know what he intends? Renly can't just sit around waiting for Stannis to say something. He thinks Cersei/Lannisters are going to kill him and needs to act fast. The Stormlands alone aren't enough.

Also, after Renly's done the work of raising an army and all, when Stannis shows up out of the blue demanding fealty due to this claim of incest, he has no evidence to back it up. Why should Renly follow Stannis based on him being the 'rightful king' when Stannis has no proof he's the rightful king? Stannis asking Renly to support him with no evidence is just asking Renly to throw away his army and kingship to back a less successful and less popular rebel. Stannis offers Renly nothing he doesn't already have.

As much as I like Stannis, he really should've staked his claim much earlier, as soon as Robert died. Renly was in the right to proclaim himself king when Stannis didn't.

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1 minute ago, Corvo the Crow said:

As much as I like Stannis, he really should've staked his claim much earlier, as soon as Robert died. Renly was in the right to proclaim himself king when Stannis didn't.

No he wasn't. He wasn't in the right to proclaim himself king at all, ever. It's not a democracy where you just file some papers and declare that you are now running for the position of King. It's a hereditary title, and Stannis is next in line whether he declares himself King or not.

29 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Haha but in all seriousness though I do think people judge Renly too harshly sometimes. He can't declare for Stannis if he doesn't know whether Stannis wants to be king, and I think it is unreasonable to expect him to follow Stannis as king when Stannis has no proof of the thing that supposedly makes him king and so means Renly should follow him. 

Again, it doesn't matter if Stannis declares himself king or not because the laws of succession are clear. The oldest male heir inherits, and that is Stannis, not Renly. And since Renly was fully aware of the incest already, his decision to proclaim himself King over his older brother just makes me dislike him even more.

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Just now, Nathan Stark said:

No he wasn't. He wasn't in the right to proclaim himself king at all, ever. It's not a democracy where you just file some papers and declare that you are now running for the position of King. It's a hereditary title, and Stannis is next in line whether he declares himself King or not.

34 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

We have precedent of the elder passing the crown to his younger brother though. 

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56 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

As much as I like Stannis, he really should've staked his claim much earlier, as soon as Robert died.

Stannis could have had Robb and Renly backing him if he acted sooner.

47 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

He wasn't in the right to proclaim himself king at all, ever.

If the king is obliged to defend the Faith he may. We don't know the specifics of the agreement Jaehaerys made, but if the king is legally required to defend the Faith, Stannis is clearly in breach of this. And you have to consider that Stannis waited months before staking his claim. I don't agree that Renly knew of the incest but even if he did, he doesn't know that Stannis knows, and Stannis himself is not communicating with him, so he can't do anything with regards to Stannis until Stannis shows up. Time is of the essence for Renly and he presumably wants to gain enough forces to oppose the Lannisters, who he believes want to kill him, ASAP, which he cannot do if he sits around waiting for Stannis to do something or anything.

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I don't have a problem with Renly crowing himself.

Renly did not knew about the incest, so he did not knew that Stannis was the legit heir. What he knew was that the Lannisters wanted him dead, and the best chance he had against them was to get the support of the Tyrells, and for that he offer them a claim to the throne through himself. His crown was a shield for his life and I do not hold that against him.

Stannis cannot complain about Renly, he never told him or Robert about the incest, and as Catelyn called him out, as far as she and Renly cared, they were all rebels against Joffrey. Stannis also spend months after Robert's death sulking without taking action. Robb was crowed because Stannis had not taken action. Renly is racing against time, and Stannis cannot be trusted to go against the "rightfull" heir Joffrey.

My problem with Renly starts after his coronation... he had the power to end it all, but instead of a quickly military campaing he decided to play a long pointless parade, and when he is given the choice of going after the people that were a threat to his life or going after his brother and his tiny force, he went after Stannis.

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3 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

had the power to end it all, but instead of a quickly military campaing he decided to play a long pointless parade

As Tyrion remarked, it was clever strategy, not pointless -- let the Lannisters and Starks  batter themselves to pieces on one another, making his victory all the more assured and the losses of his loyalists all the more reduced. Now, if the situation had been that Robb Stark had bent the knee to him, bringing the North and the riverlands with him, it could well be that he would have turned immediately to just crushing the Lannisters and making an end of it. But that had not happened.

 

3 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

when he is given the choice of going after the people that were a threat to his life or going after his brother and his tiny force, he went after Stannis.

A choice he explained. He did not want to start his reign with people saying he was too afraid to face his brother and lift the siege of his own (symbolically important) seat.

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14 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

No he wasn't. He wasn't in the right to proclaim himself king at all, ever. It's not a democracy where you just file some papers and declare that you are now running for the position of King. It's a hereditary title, and Stannis is next in line whether he declares himself King or not.

Stannis is the next in line? Or is it Viserys? Is it Joffrey?

Robb in the North? Balon in the islands?

A claim is as good as your army is big. And people don't want Stannis.

 

14 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

And since Renly was fully aware of the incest already

Citation needed.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, frenin said:

Citation needed.

Everyone who did know -- Cersei, Pycelle, Littlefinger, Stannis -- about the incest also seemed to believe Renly did not in fact know, which is probably pretty indicative of Renly not, in fact, knowing.

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4 hours ago, Ran said:

Everyone who did know -- Cersei, Pycelle, Littlefinger, Stannis -- about the incest also seemed to believe Renly did not in fact know, which is probably pretty indicative of Renly not, in fact, knowing.

Did Pycelle know? Can’t recall reading anything on it and with him being Tywin’s lap dog, it’s strange he didn’t tell if he knew.

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6 hours ago, Ran said:

A choice he explained. He did not want to start his reign with people saying he was too afraid to face his brother and lift the siege of his own (symbolically important) seat.

Why? Robert won his crown by doing just that? Storm's End was under siege for most of Roberts Rebellion and guess what, he was able to win the war, in part by just ignoring it.

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7 minutes ago, sifth said:

Why? Robert won his crown by doing just that? Storm's End was under siege for most of Roberts Rebellion and guess what, he was able to win the war, in part by just ignoring it.

A good question. I dare say that Robert was not in a position to lift the siege because he had chosen to join forces with Ned and Jon Arryn and was therefore involved in fighting in the riverlands. So that may have been the distinction for Renly: Robert had an unavoidable fight that kept him away from Storm's End, while Renly did not, so if he avoided Storm's End, he'd look like a coward. 

17 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Did Pycelle know? Can’t recall reading anything on it and with him being Tywin’s lap dog, it’s strange he didn’t tell if he knew.

Pycelle knew. In ACoK:

Quote

"And what was Lord Arryn plotting?"
"He knew," Pycelle said. "About . . . about--"

"I know what he knew about," snapped Tyrion, who was not anxious for Shagga and Timett to know as well.

 

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On 12/24/2022 at 4:12 PM, Craving Peaches said:

Recently I have seen claims that Renly should have and was obliged to back Stannis as king. I feel that this is being a bit unfair, firstly because Stannis did not make his intention to be king clear until far too late, and secondly Stannis had no proof of the thing that meant Renly had to follow him in the first place.

The problem is that Renly declared himself king when he had no right to.

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4 hours ago, Ran said:

Everyone who did know -- Cersei, Pycelle, Littlefinger, Stannis -- about the incest also seemed to believe Renly did not in fact know, which is probably pretty indicative of Renly not, in fact, knowing.

The fact that Renly attempted to get Margaery into Robert's bed as his mistress/wife suggests he did know, otherwise he wouldn't have tried it.

The whole getting Margaery into Robert's bed scheme is very risky on a few levels. First off, nobody on the Iron Throne divorces their wife outside of a religious fanatic like Baelor the Blessed. Second, Cersei herself. She still holds a lot of power (mostly because Robert allows her to) and neither she nor Tywin would take being shunted aside lightly, particularly Cersei and her prophecy of the Younger and More Beautiful Queen hanging over her head; she might have Robert and Margaery's children murdered. This leads into the next point: Joffrey. Myrcella and Tommen might be nicer to their half-siblings but Joffrey won't take kindly to his mother being shunted aside and would murder them if given the opportunity. If Mace wants his kids on the Iron Throne, he'd have more luck courting Cersei ;).

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3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

The fact that Renly attempted to get Margaery into Robert's bed as his mistress/wife suggests he did know, otherwise he wouldn't have tried it.

Are we talking about the same Renly? The one who believes might makes right, that the law is a paper thin thing made to please septons and maesters but which can be disregarded if you're strong enough, that no precedent can hold a king who does not wish it to?

Of course he'd try to put Margaery in Robert's bed as part of a plot to try and displace Cersei. The mechanics of the plot are unclear, but that's probably because Renly didn't think it had to be any more complicated than, "1) Robert sleeps with Margaery. 2) Robert likes Margaery better than Cersei. 3) Cersei is put aside because Robert says so."

It's worth noting that Cersei, who knew of Renly's enmity and plotting against her, didn't think he did it because he knew the incest. Ditto Stannis, who doesn't call Renly a liar who only pretends  to not have known of the incest. 

 

3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

The whole getting Margaery into Robert's bed scheme is very risky on a few levels.

And this is out of character for Renly how? He's plotting to push Cersei and the Lannisters out of power, the very idea is risky in itself. 

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22 minutes ago, Ran said:

Are we talking about the same Renly? The one who believes might makes right, that the law is a paper thin thing made to please septons and maesters but which can be disregarded if you're strong enough, that no precedent can hold a king who does not wish it to?

Of course he'd try to put Margaery in Robert's bed as part of a plot to try and displace Cersei. The mechanics of the plot are unclear, but that's probably because Renly didn't think it had to be any more complicated than, "1) Robert sleeps with Margaery. 2) Robert likes Margaery better than Cersei. 3) Cersei is put aside because Robert says so."

It's worth noting that Cersei, who knew of Renly's enmity and plotting against her, didn't think he did it because he knew the incest. Ditto Stannis, who doesn't call Renly a liar who only pretends  to not have known of the incest. 

 

And this is out of character for Renly how? He's plotting to push Cersei and the Lannisters out of power, the very idea is risky in itself. 

Yes, it would be in character. I still think it's a stupid plan.

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