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Casterly Rock


Gilbert Green

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GRRM posted about Casterly Rock on 12/23, trolling us with the "hope" (famous last words) that we would see Casterly Rock in a POV in WINDS or DREAM.  He emphasizes the fact that the chambers of Casterly Rock are located inside a mountain, creating defenses with which no curtain wall can compare.  He seems to want us to ponder the question whether a dragon could take Casterly Rock, the way Balerion the Black Dread devastated Harrenhall.

My opinion was that this question was already answered when Smaug descended on Eriador and took possession of the halls of the Dwarf Kings.

Would the same answer apply to Casterly Rock?  It depends, I suppose, on whether the attacking dragon were small enough to get inside.  So I'm guessing the attacker is more likely to be Rhaegal than Drogon.  One detail worth remembering is that Tyrion knows the Casterly Rock sewer system.  I suspect that this is how the dragon will get in, before roasting all the inhabitants alive.

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29 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

Visenya seemed convinced that the dragons wouldn’t have been able to penetrate or destroy Casterly Rock. 

And the Titanic was unsinkable.  Sounds to me like ironic foreshadowing of dragon disaster.

I guess Tyrion's knowledge of the sewer system will be important, then.

It might be hard going inside with a rider, though.  But I think Tyrion's arc foreshadows his BECOMING a dragon (Varamir Sixskins second life style), rather than simply riding one.  The kinslaying dwarf-turned-dragon is also a subject of Norse legend.

One difference between Smaug and the typical Westerosi dragon is that Smaug was intelligent.

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Westeros has legends about intelligent dragons, as well as dragons hoarding gold, though Tyrion assumes it is all nonsense.

"Most of the stories you hear about dragons are fodder for fools. Talking dragons, dragons hoarding gold and gems, dragons with four legs and bellies big as elephants, dragons riddling with sphinxes … nonsense, all of it. But there are truths in the old books as well."

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I don't think a dragon will have much to do with an assault on Casterly Rock.

Tyrion previously managed all of the water and sewage systems there, and boasted that he actually made things run better.  The Mystery Knight suggests that a dwarf may have climbed up the privy to steal the dragon egg.  Martin seems to be setting things for Tyrion to use his knowledge, and possibly his size, to sneak into and take Casterly Rock.

This would also allow for Tyrion to give his father a final "up yours" - what his father refused to give him, he was capable of taking for himself.  

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6 hours ago, Green Stag said:

I don't think a dragon will have much to do with an assault on Casterly Rock.

I'm not saying GRRM isn't trolling us.  But he does seem to want us to ponder the question.

6 hours ago, Green Stag said:

Tyrion previously managed all of the water and sewage systems there, and boasted that he actually made things run better.

A chekov's plot point if I ever saw one.

6 hours ago, Green Stag said:

 

6 hours ago, Green Stag said:

This would also allow for Tyrion to give his father a final "up yours" - what his father refused to give him, he was capable of taking for himself.  

Tywin is beyond the reach of any further vengeance by Tyrion.  I'd be more worried for the poor souls who are still alive.

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4 hours ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

A dragon cannot destroy casterly rock from the inside. There are many tunnels, caves and passages too small for a dragon to enter. Even if it were to enter them, the passages can be easily blocked.

- Dragons are long snaky creatures.  Any tunnel too small for a modest sized dragon would also be too small for a human.  None of the current crop of dragons are likely soon to reach the size of Balerion, Vaghar and Meraxes.

- Dragons can block passages too small for their own use; as did Smaug.  Humans not so much.  Fire is deadly underground; and dragons can tunnel.  A brick wall ain't gonna stop them.

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On 12/26/2022 at 1:31 AM, Gilbert Green said:

GRRM posted about Casterly Rock on 12/23, trolling us with the "hope" (famous last words) that we would see Casterly Rock in a POV in WINDS or DREAM.  He emphasizes the fact that the chambers of Casterly Rock are located inside a mountain, creating defenses with which no curtain wall can compare.  He seems to want us to ponder the question whether a dragon could take Casterly Rock, the way Balerion the Black Dread devastated Harrenhall.

My opinion was that this question was already answered when Smaug descended on Eriador and took possession of the halls of the Dwarf Kings.

Would the same answer apply to Casterly Rock?  It depends, I suppose, on whether the attacking dragon were small enough to get inside.  So I'm guessing the attacker is more likely to be Rhaegal than Drogon.  One detail worth remembering is that Tyrion knows the Casterly Rock sewer system.  I suspect that this is how the dragon will get in, before roasting all the inhabitants alive.

It's better to seal the defenders inside and let the Rock be their tomb.  That means giving up on taking the gold inside but that is a sacrifice to avoid the loss of soldiers in a long siege.  The Rock is impregnable but penetration is not necessary if all that is needed is kill the Lannisters.  Seal the Rock and let the Lannisters die slowly inside. 

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1 hour ago, Roswell said:

It's better to seal the defenders inside and let the Rock be their tomb.  That means giving up on taking the gold inside but that is a sacrifice to avoid the loss of soldiers in a long siege.  The Rock is impregnable but penetration is not necessary if all that is needed is kill the Lannisters.  Seal the Rock and let the Lannisters die slowly inside. 

This 

 

The rains of castermere could come back to haunt them when someone else blocks them in for flooding or fire/smoke to kill them all.

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16 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

- Dragons are long snaky creatures.  Any tunnel too small for a modest sized dragon would also be too small for a human.  None of the current crop of dragons are likely soon to reach the size of Balerion, Vaghar and Meraxes.

- Dragons can block passages too small for their own use; as did Smaug.  Humans not so much.  Fire is deadly underground; and dragons can tunnel.  A brick wall ain't gonna stop them.

Drogon, Rhaegal and Viserion are not. Even if they were, how would they enter Casterly Rock? The main entrances would be closed. The arrow slits and windows would be too narrow for a dragon to enter, even for younger dragons like Danys.

We dont know how wide or narrow the passages are. If they are, the dragons would have to squeeze in, making it difficult for them to move and impossible to fly. 

If a dragon tries to burrow its way out there is a risk of stone collapsing on them

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1 hour ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

Drogon, Rhaegal and Viserion are not.

Not long snaky creatures?  Yes they are.

1 hour ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

Even if they were, how would they enter Casterly Rock?

Well, my guess was via the sewers, as I already indicated. 

1 hour ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

We dont know how wide or narrow the passages are.

If we don't know, then my guess is "Large enough for Tyrion's dragon".

1 hour ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

If they are, the dragons would have to squeeze in, making it difficult for them to move and impossible to fly. 

Long snaky creatures would not need to fly.  They crawl, they climb, they burrow.  And all they need do is breathe fire, to neutralize opposition in the passages ahead.  The last place I'd want to fight a dragon is underground.

1 hour ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

If a dragon tries to burrow its way out there is a risk of stone collapsing on them

Same applies to any humans who try to block the dragon via cave-ins.  Meanwhile, Tyrion is the one who knows the sewer system.

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It seems to me that Casterly Rock, if it does fall, will fall by subterfuge and someone (Tyrion?) will take advantage of Tyrion's superior knowledge of its infrastructure to gain entry and lift a vital gate somewhere.  

(I do also wonder if it has something to do with the Red Wedding II, as I believe that Daven Lannister, the current Warden of the West, slated to marry a Frey maiden but it seems that the Frey household has been infiltrated with the henchmen of Lady Stonetheart)

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On 12/26/2022 at 1:31 AM, Gilbert Green said:

My opinion was that this question was already answered when Smaug descended on Eriador and took possession of the halls of the Dwarf Kings.

Would the same answer apply to Casterly Rock? 

I tweaked on this parallel as well.  GRRM's description certainly has something of a Mines of Moria vibe going on.  Which is completely different from my impression of it as portrayed by the TV version.  I'd have to go with evicting whatever dragon/monster is occupying it,  with subterfuge.  A Lann the Clever thing.

I suppose we could see something of it in Winds, if Cersei is pressed to use it as a bolt hole.  It could also play a part in GRRM's version of the Scouring of the Shire.  In which case the drainage system is the most likely point of egress.

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