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"Only 500 pages to go" for Winds of Winter


Aebram
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Fans being upset that the book that was promised again and again for delivery before the show wrapped still being probably years away is not 'entitlement'.  Fans concluding, based on GRRM own statements about his priorities and his calendar of activities, that he views Winds now as a chore/albatross and no longer a labor of love is not entitlement either, it is a very reasonable take on the available evidence.  IMO

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14 hours ago, Jan Snieg said:

So he had written about 900 pages in 12 years (200+ pages are taken from DwD). I assume after he finishes, there will be much rewritting, adding and changing some details. And there's editors and printers work after that. Goerge won't complete it by 2030 and sadly he will be 82 years old at that point.

Not so much. GRRM's process involves editing as he goes along before he considers a chapter completed, so when he finishes the book, it's effectively "pre-edited." He still does a consistency edit to iron out any inconsistencies that may have arisen between chapters written (and edited) years apart, as well as a tightening "sweat" edit to remove redundant material, but any important and major rewrites should not arise in that process because it's already been done. George's editor should have also seen the book in batches through the years so her input should also have been already taken into consideration.

Whilst I think arguments about the book not coming out until 2024, 2025 or 2026 based on current progress have some merit (it certainly won't be this year), 2030 feels rather extreme barring some kind of catastrophic event (i.e. a direct meteor strike on George's office that takes out every single copy of TWoW in existence and all the backups).

45 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I believe the number is smaller now but it was really awful a few years back.  Not just nasty, but horribly vile and abusive.  That's not something I want to be around.  I can't imagine the toll that took on George.  It's not likely to energize him in any way.  I think the calmer is gets and the less noise makes it easier to continue.  I hope that he is living the life he wants to live and deserves to enjoy the fruits of his labour at this stage.   I'll consider whatever I get from him as a gift.

Yes, the bizarre thing about TWoW is that the wait has been twice as long as for ADWD but maybe half as rancorous, if that. I ascribe that to the lack of a glaring promise of a release date in the preceding book (as AFFC had for ADWD), which definitely fuelled that fire much more greatly.

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13 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Yes, the bizarre thing about TWoW is that the wait has been twice as long as for ADWD but maybe half as rancorous, if that. I ascribe that to the lack of a glaring promise of a release date in the preceding book (as AFFC had for ADWD), which definitely fuelled that fire much more greatly.

At a guess, most people have given up on him. I imagine that few people now think he is ever going to finish the series. I suspect many people think he is unlikely even to finish TWoW.

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Just now, A wilding said:

At a guess, most people have given up on him. I imagine that few people now think he is ever going to finish the series. I suspect many people think he is unlikely even to finish TWoW.

I don't think that quite tracks with the ten-fold increase in sales from 2011 to now, though. People who've been through this before and are over it (veterans of the ADWD wait and even the AFFC one) will be dwarfed by the number of relative newcomers, with that number of incoming newcomers to the book franchise peaking around the time excitement over the TV show peaked, which was around Season 7 or between Season 7 and 8 (i.e. as recently as 2018-19). I'd expect those newcomers to be going through disappointment or frustration by now over the long wait.

Of course, they are also coming in "pre-warned" that George takes vast periods of time to produce a book. Also, the apathy over the TV show ending may done significant work in dampening enthusiasm overall for the franchise, but it does appear that House of the Dragon may have succeeded in reigniting some of that enthusiasm.

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1 hour ago, mormont said:

If you're saying that you meant to indicate that GRRM is upset at only some fans, not fans in general: that's not how your post reads at all, I'm afraid. Nor your follow-up post. Both seem to be either suggesting that you believe that all fans are upset with GRRM for doing anything other than write, or that GRRM believes this. That's buttressed by some rather uncharitable comments about GRRM's past statements and behaviour, including in this post to which I'm responding.

If you see yourself as being sympathetic but are coming over unsympathetic, well, maybe consider why.

If I were giving any type of warning, it would not be ambiguous.

To clarify, I again say it’s used inclusively. I tried to be cute and get in a passive-aggressive joke about the fallacy we’re playing around here re: Piraeus, but maybe too cute to be understandable, so I’ll clarify: not all fans are upset about the books, but all people upset about the books are fans, and Martin’s responses to the fans has increasingly been including those. Using the term inclusively is not misleading, you are just choosing to only accept one usage for the word and read motivation into the difference that really is not there, I am not championing anyone being disrespectful to GRRM (nor would ever be myself) except to point out that both parties have a right to their frustration.

What are my uncharitable comments about his past statements you keep referencing? I tried asking for expansion of this but you repeated the same vague description. Has he repeatedly made and broken promises? Undeniably true…most recently he, off his own bat with no reporter or interviewer to be nearby to take the blame, stated he would work on no other Planetos projects until finishing Winds, specifically Winds. This soothed and excited many readers, including many in here, and was often raised to refute those who said his focus was loosening. 
 

A couple/few(?) years later he announced that he was (and had been) working on other things all along, that now the focus was on the ‘universe’ rather than one series of books, listed a bunch on new projects he was excited about, said he understood this would upset fans but, basically, get over it, and went on to describe his frustration with fans being frustrated…despite being pretty isolated from direct fan feedback for a while now. 

This is not over-enthusiasm leading to pie-in-the-sky ‘only going to take a decade’ predictions about completion dates, this is a choice to make a promise about prioritization and a subsequent choice to break that promise.
 

Does he have the right? Of course, but those fans who thought this time the promise meant something also have a right to their frustration, disappointment and the feeling GRRM might have target confusion and/or is more exited about other projects at present than Winds. I don’t see that as uncharitable, particularly when I have said that if I were one of his loved ones I would tell him to stuff the fan frustration and do whatever makes him enjoy himself, even if that’s toy trains or w/e, because it’s his life, and life is worth enjoying.
 

 You are suggesting I am coming across unsympathetic, but I am struggling to understand that characterization. I am saddened by my belief I’ll never see the end of the series, I am sometimes frustrated by his breaking…more accurately I probably get most nervous when he makes them again after so many have fallen by the wayside…promises about the books, but I specifically am not as upset as many about that being demoted for HotD or Dunk or w/e, any real new content coming from that world by him is very welcome to me. But I don’t trust his word anymore, and I think doing so would be irrational given the evidence. If the only way I can not be unsympathetic in your eyes, or lumped in with the people who attack him is to pretend I still do trust his word/promises, then I think your expectations are too high, at least for me.

 

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2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Fans being upset that the book that was promised again and again for delivery before the show wrapped still being probably years away is not 'entitlement'.  Fans concluding, based on GRRM own statements about his priorities and his calendar of activities, that he views Winds now as a chore/albatross and no longer a labor of love is not entitlement either, it is a very reasonable take on the available evidence.  IMO

Sad, but true.

There are other books to read, but I would like to see a conclusion to this series, other than the poor fanfiction that the two D’s gave us.

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9 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Let's not forget that GRRM has struggled with Feast and Dance since around 2001, which is long before the show became a thing.

Oh, sure, it’s more of a ~ last straw, though much more significant than most preceding straws. I guess I still put more emphasis in the Mereneese knot than experience since would suggest I should. But the show passing him is, imo, areal game changer. Watch him talk about the possibility in those old interviews; he all but says it would ruin it for him. 

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I'm going to summarise with a couple of remarks then leave this, rather than go deeper.

The idea that GRRM is 'hostile' to his fans is nonsense. I've seen him interact with fans, going above and beyond what many authors would do: autographing for hours at a time (on a purely voluntary basis - not a tour, at conventions where he gets nothing in return), chatting with them happily, giving up time and advice and kind words, happy and contented. He loves his fans. That's a simple fact.

What is being discussed here is a comment on his blog, which we appear to agree is not addressed to all fans, so right there, the original comment is proven to be ill-judged and inaccurate. You can blather on about being 'inclusive' but what you mean is, you said 'fans' when you should have said 'certain fans'. The continual use of 'fans', unqualified, to describe the section of the fanbase that is frustrated with GRRM implies that all fans share the same view. They don't. And in this context, where you are suggesting a negative view from GRRM towards 'fans', it is particularly foolish not to qualify the term. It can reasonably be read as an attack on GRRM.

I don't even view it as hostile to those particular fans. It's anticipating criticism, correctly, from certain quarters that erupts whenever GRRM talks about anything other than writing TWOW. I read it as weary, rather than angry, and I don't blame him for being weary of that reaction. But his desire to interact with fans is shown from the fact that he's posting at all, when he has no obligation to do so. What he's upset about is that he can't do that without someone kicking him. Like you have done here.

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I do agree that GRRM does get hostile and unfair comments. But I think there is some nuance to the situation.

While a few people may be GRRM's friends and others (such as myself) may have known who he was before ASoIaF, most people are aware of him only as the author of ASoIaF, Most people have little interest in him him other than as the author of ASoIaF. Obviously the vast majority of such people (myself included) stay away and don't bother reading his blog or otherwise interacting with him. However, in our culture, a small minority are sadly going to behave obnoxiously.

Basically the elephant in the room is that ASoIaF is what has made GRRM famous (and rich), but that he is not going to finish it. And whenever GRRM goes out there to talk to ASoIaF fans, the elephant is always going to be present.

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9 hours ago, mormont said:

I'm going to summarise with a couple of remarks then leave this, rather than go deeper.

The idea that GRRM is 'hostile' to his fans is nonsense. I've seen him interact with fans, going above and beyond what many authors would do: autographing for hours at a time (on a purely voluntary basis - not a tour, at conventions where he gets nothing in return), chatting with them happily, giving up time and advice and kind words, happy and contented. He loves his fans. That's a simple fact.

What is being discussed here is a comment on his blog, which we appear to agree is not addressed to all fans, so right there, the original comment is proven to be ill-judged and inaccurate. You can blather on about being 'inclusive' but what you mean is, you said 'fans' when you should have said 'certain fans'. The continual use of 'fans', unqualified, to describe the section of the fanbase that is frustrated with GRRM implies that all fans share the same view. They don't. And in this context, where you are suggesting a negative view from GRRM towards 'fans', it is particularly foolish not to qualify the term. It can reasonably be read as an attack on GRRM.

I don't even view it as hostile to those particular fans. It's anticipating criticism, correctly, from certain quarters that erupts whenever GRRM talks about anything other than writing TWOW. I read it as weary, rather than angry, and I don't blame him for being weary of that reaction. But his desire to interact with fans is shown from the fact that he's posting at all, when he has no obligation to do so. What he's upset about is that he can't do that without someone kicking him. Like you have done here.

I think I understood what @James Arryn meant by his remark though.  I think I have a pretty good idea what not-a-blog posts he referred to.  If "hostile" is not the right word, he could have said "weary" and I would still have understand his meaning and its implications.  I understood him to be talking in relative terms not absolute ones ("more consistently hostile").  I did not read his remark as an accusation that GRRM was rude and ungracious to book purchasers at book signings.   Also, in the context of this WINDS thread, I understood him to be referring to those particular book fans who hold out some vague hope of seeing WINDS some day; and not to those buyers and readers who just love and praise him absolutely and unconditionally.  I did not read anything in his remark as an accusation that GRRM was a bad person.  Just that he thinks he sees clues that GRRM is no longer treating the main book series as a priority.

I think you are word-policing him a bit too hard; and being a bit too hostile yourself with words like "blather".  But that's only my opinion.  You may know your business, though, and for all I know, maybe you DO speak for GRRM.  In your final words, you seem to hint that James Arryn is the kind of bad fan that GRRM is upset at.   Which is quite possibly true.  Let's lump James Arryn in with poor Gareth, except that James Arryn has been probably been more reasonable and patient than poor Gareth ever was back in 2009. 

It seems that the concept of "bad fans" extends FAR FAR beyond those extreme cases who were once wishing death on GRRM so that Brandon Sanderson could finish the series.  And the bad fan concept keeps expanding.

As for me, I am patient.  I hold out a vague hope of seeing WINDS at some point before GRRM turns 80, and I intend to read it when it comes out, if i am still alive and healthy.   Then I expect him to tinker with the next volume for the next 2 decades after that (but not finish) and I support his right to do so.  If he pleasantly surprises me by actually finishing, i will be delighted.  But i do think the promise of a continuation is one of the selling points of the series, and the failure to deliver one (within a reasonable time) is a failure of sorts, that will inevitably disappoint and frustrate a significant portion of his customer base, past and future.  I understand that "ought implies can" and GRRM may (for all I know) be doing the best he can.  But i also know that the customer is human too; that the customer is always right; and that is the customer feels frustrated or disappointed he has the right to those feelings.  And i do think GRRM has shown signs of pique (or, if you prefer "weariness") towards these disappointed fans.  Maybe that makes me a bad fan too. 

I have no opinion on whether insulting and abusing such "bad fans" is good marketing policy or not.  I leave such questions to the marketing department.

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10 hours ago, mormont said:

I'm going to summarise with a couple of remarks then leave this, rather than go deeper.

The idea that GRRM is 'hostile' to his fans is nonsense. I've seen him interact with fans, going above and beyond what many authors would do: autographing for hours at a time (on a purely voluntary basis - not a tour, at conventions where he gets nothing in return), chatting with them happily, giving up time and advice and kind words, happy and contented. He loves his fans. That's a simple fact.

What is being discussed here is a comment on his blog, which we appear to agree is not addressed to all fans, so right there, the original comment is proven to be ill-judged and inaccurate. You can blather on about being 'inclusive' but what you mean is, you said 'fans' when you should have said 'certain fans'. The continual use of 'fans', unqualified, to describe the section of the fanbase that is frustrated with GRRM implies that all fans share the same view. They don't. And in this context, where you are suggesting a negative view from GRRM towards 'fans', it is particularly foolish not to qualify the term. It can reasonably be read as an attack on GRRM.

I don't even view it as hostile to those particular fans. It's anticipating criticism, correctly, from certain quarters that erupts whenever GRRM talks about anything other than writing TWOW. I read it as weary, rather than angry, and I don't blame him for being weary of that reaction. But his desire to interact with fans is shown from the fact that he's posting at all, when he has no obligation to do so. What he's upset about is that he can't do that without someone kicking him. Like you have done here.

Not at all sure where all this…weariness?…is coming from. I explained the context of the comment you keep bringing back up, I even said I’d tell GRRM to be more ‘weary’ if I were close to him. You are now arguing semantics with a huge fan of his because we differ on…what? It’s not the use of inclusive pro/nouns, as you above use several. When you say you have seen him interact with ‘fans’, is that ‘all fans’, or are you meaning that the qualifier that unified the people you have seen him interact with was their fandom? If I were more weary, would I accuse you of saying that you are foolishly suggesting you have seen him interact with every fan on the planet? Probably not, but I’m not that weary atm.

But I guess that’s on you for not using absolute terminology, instead speaking…like a person? My feeling is that I’m somehow being shuffled into a place where you aren’t really reacting to what I said, but what others have said…sorry, when I say others that’s me being ‘foolish’ again, I should stipulate that others in this context is not intended to represent every sentient being on earth, but merely those which I am contextually indicating…https://pure.manchester.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/38005196/FULL_TEXT.PDF…which studies suggest is how humans, in this case meaning most but probably not all, communicate. Also, to speak more semantically for a minute, even if we agree that he is only ‘more consistently hostile’ to those fans whom he referred to as ‘internet assholes’ for ‘crucifying’ him when he doesn’t meet his own deadlines, that would still mean he is more hostile to fans as a whole, just by inclusion. I honestly can’t believe I’m having this conversation.
 

Anyways, to finish, this feels like you have a lot of hostility or weariness on behalf of GRRM for attacks he’s gotten and are being very broad with the brush to lump me in with them, which from my perspective is ridiculous. I have never attacked GRRM in my life, have argued against people who have, am not now nor have ever been a member of the Communist party, etc. 
 

Edited to avoid starting every paragraph with the same word…you are talking to someone with tens of thousands of posts about GRRMs world, who loves his books and thinks he, aside from writers I’ve known personally like GGK or Bernard Cornwall, has a body of interaction with fans which is most remarkable for it’s inclusiveness. And I basically have CK2 AGOT on constantly. And, again, stated that if I knew him I’d tell him to ignore fan frustration, even if I think frustration over repeated broken promises is a reasonable human reaction. 

Not sure, at all, how you are terming my comment an attack. Especially given that important words you keep leaving out before ‘hostile’ were ‘more consistently’ which might mean out of 1-10 he’s now more 1 when he used to be 0 or w/e, and the fact that you yourself, in citing the DEVELOPMENT of people attacking him and his ‘weariness’ with same means that something has changed a bit, something has increased. But you seem to have decided to make an example out of me, fwr, so okay. You give me a quick summary of acceptable opinions and I’ll just stick to those and stop…blathering like a fool? But you should probably send George the same list, he’s a lot more…inclusive…than I ever was: 
 

“I’m making progress, but I’ve given up on any hope of predicting the end,” Martin said. “Every time I do, I don’t make it and EVERYBODY gets mad at me, and there’s no sense. It’ll be done when it’s done.” 
 

 

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5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Have the publisher(s) made any statements about this topic?

Their position is what it always has been, that when George delivers the book they will move heaven and Earth to get it on the shelves ASAP. They haven't made any specific comment about the recent statements because there's not much to say until the final pages land on their desk.

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3 hours ago, Werthead said:

Their position is what it always has been, that when George delivers the book they will move heaven and Earth to get it on the shelves ASAP. They haven't made any specific comment about the recent statements because there's not much to say until the final pages land on their desk.

Speed seems like a moot point.  There isn't any deadline [GOT] that he's working against.  Why would they need to go crazy to 'move heaven and earth' to get the book out in 2 months v. 4 or 5 months?  What possible difference could the timing make now?  I suppose if it would drop right before the xmas season or right before the final season of HOD then speed would make sense, otherwise, that seems like an idea whose time is long past relevence.

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59 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Speed seems like a moot point.  There isn't any deadline [GOT] that he's working against.  Why would they need to go crazy to 'move heaven and earth' to get the book out in 2 months v. 4 or 5 months?  What possible difference could the timing make now?  I suppose if it would drop right before the xmas season or right before the final season of HOD then speed would make sense, otherwise, that seems like an idea whose time is long past relevence.

They get money ASAP.

Publishers are in a bit of a chaotic place right now and anything that an imprint can do to make themselves look good to their corporate bosses is hugely important. TWoW will be one of the biggest-selling novels of the year whenever it is released, so the publishers will want it out and making bank as soon as possible.

If they have to split it and can publish it in two volumes in two different financial years, that could also work very well for them.

There was no reason really to get ASoS on shelves 2.5 months after George finished it (especially given the sales back then), but they did it anyway.

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18 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Now that I think about it, I am surprised that ASOS was published without GRRM being told to cut the number of pages.

Well, back then the cost of paper was trivial compared to today, so it was not really an issue.

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On 1/3/2023 at 9:55 AM, Cas Stark said:

Fans being upset that the book that was promised again and again for delivery before the show wrapped still being probably years away is not 'entitlement'.  Fans concluding, based on GRRM own statements about his priorities and his calendar of activities, that he views Winds now as a chore/albatross and no longer a labor of love is not entitlement either, it is a very reasonable take on the available evidence.  IMO

It's one thing to feel frustration, disappointment, and concern over Winds not being released as promised. And it's another to accuse GRRM of being an idiot hack liar. Guy is trying to write one of the greatest fantasy sagas of all time and he needs to make sure it matches the high quality he's put into the other books. There's so much for him he needs to do and I cannot blame him for struggling to wrap up all loose ends. And worse he was stuck with having to help out the show which I don't think did Winds any favors.

I hate this mindset coming from the toxic fanbase and such things don't help GRRM through making it to the end.

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