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Andrew Tate - sex trafficker


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On 1/4/2023 at 3:54 AM, Heartofice said:

The only thing I find interesting about this Andrew Tate thing is why he is seen as popular at all? 

I suspect this is a signal that some underlying issues are being swept under the carpet by society and not addressed, and when society doesn't seek to address something you end up with only the worst actors being willing to take up the mantle and push the most extreme hardline position, and this is what people are attracted to.

Tate is an extreme vision of masculinity, he is almost a parody of it, a caricature. It's obvious to most people that he is just a sad insecure little man puffing out his chest, like a tiny chihuahua snapping at your heels. But to others who have no contact with masculine role models, they might not be able to distinguish this from real confidence and competence. 

A lot of this is really a signal of something else, it's kind of sad.

Yes, the history of human civilization is one long list of masculinity getting short shrift.
 

How can there be no male role models when men still dominate politics, film, sports, media, business, etc.? Like how do you believe that? Historically, when privileges get curbed, the privileged sincerely feel ‘attacked’, but that doesn’t make it actually accurate. 

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3 hours ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Boys are perhaps more likely to go into trade apprenticeships. A couple of parents i know of teeneged boys certainly encouraged their sons to go the apprenticeship route rather than go to uni. 
Twenty/thirty yesrs ago, I believe apprenticeships were less of a thing, and certainly the mindset at school was to go to uni if you could. That’s changed.

This. Totally unrelated to anything in this thread, in the last two weeks I’ve had several discussions with friends about how many guys they know have decided university educations are useless to them and have gone into trades instead. They’ve realized the jobs pay them double or triple the minimum wage even when they are just starting training and are stupid and know nothing. If you’re making $10 or $15 an hour more that’s $400 to $600 more a week over the basic 40 hours, which is a fuck ton of money more. And it only goes up with time. And the jobs are unionized, with benefits and pensions.

In addition to that, trades are almost exclusively male, and there’s great appeal to being back in the boys club. And driving trucks, trucks that you don’t have to pay the gas for, the company pays. Win win win! Or, it’s a trade where you can start your own business.

In the meantime, fields dominated by women are getting hammered. Ask any nurse in any province in Canada. And a basic BA is a useless degree that gives you no training. Hell, to get a decent librarian’s job you need an MA. Guys look at that and say hell no, I don’t want the student debt.

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3 hours ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Boys are perhaps more likely to go into trade apprenticeships. A couple of parents i know of teeneged boys certainly encouraged their sons to go the apprenticeship route rather than go to uni. 
Twenty/thirty yesrs ago, I believe apprenticeships were less of a thing, and certainly the mindset at school was to go to uni if you could. That’s changed.

I'm very sceptical of this argument. Participation rates among young men in HE over the last few years haven't declined: in fact they've mostly increased, albeit not by as much as for women. (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/843542/Publication_HEIPR1718.pdf). 

Other data I've read suggests that trade and other apprenticeships are growing, not at the expense of HE, but at the expense of other post-16 education and other employment/non-participation in the labour market. Apprenticeships aren't aimed at likely HE participants. It's not impossible that some young men choose them over HE, but statistically it doesn't seem to be a trend. Same applies to attitudes to HE in schoolkids: the data shows that they continue to go into HE if they can, significantly more so than they did twenty years ago. 

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4 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

It is facing serious problems, but gender isn't one of them. The gender gap in college graduation rates probably just comes down to new access, birth control and young women generally being more responsible than young men while also recognizing that traditionally over the last fifty years that women have had to work harder to get the same jobs. 

Or to put it more simply, as someone who went to a respected university that's always in the top 10 for total enrollment, the women were more likely to show up to class and less likely to be hungover than their male classmates. 

Enrollments are down everywhere in higher education all over the USA.  Some locations it's because the states and communities have cut and withdrawn a great deal of funding, have dropped humanities -- so kids have to leave for elsewhere to get the education they want.  But mostly it's because the Boomer and subsequent birth rate wave has ended, and there are just fewer students.

This is a considered crisis in higher education -- and even below -- everywhere -- not mention in lower education there are fewer and fewer people willing to put up with the bs they have to deal with to be teachers, just starting with the dreadful pay, the inadequate conditions of the facility/campus, the abuse by parents and locally anti 'woke' activists who aren't even parents.

Higher education recruits actively students out of country who pay full tuition, etc.  Many of these students, btw, are women from prosperous/wealthy families, particularly from countries where women aren't given much opportunity for education, and / or don't have much to offer as higher education to anyone.  Many countries have long counted on 'western' universities to provide the education necessary for their engineers, etc., as well as long counting on them for medical care, rather than building their own education and medical infrastructures. Needless to say access to these resources are only for the wealthy in the first place.

None of this is caused by 'women' getting special treatment which is what always comes through in the whines from such comments as that above.  The only cause, and only solution, advanced, over and over, without, of course ever having the courage to actually say it, only barely dog whistle, is make women stop ... stop doing everything, particularly talking, being in public, working, getting educated and above all, drawing attention to how badly so many males behave -- particularly to women.  It's the same with racism and everything else.  All this would go away and life would be so good if all these people would just shut up sit down and stop drawing attention to how badly certain groups behave, culturally, politically, socially and financially -- particularly rich men.

 

 

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At least there are now some women participating in the discussion....

One thing to consider in the educational outcome discussion:  women have to be better on every single level to be successful in the most lucrative careers.  That is, there is a much high cost to women for mediocrity than there is to men.  Thus, women (if they wish to be successful in such careers) need to try harder and be better and tick every. single. box. (and they still statistically are less likely to be at the very top than a similarly diligent and talented man).  

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

At least there are now some women participating in the discussion....

One thing to consider in the educational outcome discussion:  women have to be better on every single level to be successful in the most lucrative careers.  That is, there is a much high cost to women for mediocrity than there is to men.  Thus, women (if they wish to be successful in such careers) need to try harder and be better and tick every. single. box. (and they still statistically are less likely to be at the very top than a similarly diligent and talented man).  

This is true. Although women are getting more bachelors and masters degrees than men, if we look at outcomes beyond that level and into the workplace, men still disproportionately achieve promoted posts in most professions (including those dominated by women like nursing and teaching) and do better in other ways. Their educational disadvantage doesn't appear to be reflected in their careers. 

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Andrew Tate represents the men who have been coddled, babied and told since an early age that nothing they do is their fault. They're looking for someone to tell them that they have to do nothing to improve themselves or change anything and that Other People are the real problem. This ain't anything new, especially for angry men. It does dovetail nicely into the rest of the desire for authoritarianism and reactionary politics but it isn't special. Just another flavor of entitled people being angry when they don't get their way.

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2 minutes ago, mormont said:

This is true. Although women are getting more bachelors and masters degrees than men, if we look at outcomes beyond that level and into the workplace, men still disproportionately achieve promoted posts in most professions (including those dominated by women like nursing and teaching) and do better in other ways. Their educational disadvantage doesn't appear to be reflected in their careers. 

One of the most infuriating things for women in banking (at least here in Canada) is the fact they have a hard time getting out of the bank branch. Everybody has to put in a stint as a teller to start, know the business from the ground up. I’ve heard so many stories about women training men who then get promoted to other positions while the women stay behind in the branch.

Yesterday I went out with my brother to  witness some wills, and we ended up in one of those discussions about young men who decided university was not for them. Their son switched out of university to become a plumber. The apprenticeship is five years long. After four years he quit because he saw so much in-fighting among the trades he said he couldn’t stand it anymore, much to the dismay of his parents who begged him to finish the fifth year and then quit. Instead he took a job with a big plumbing supply company, working on the supply counter and dealing with the public. His plan was to become a salesman, which apparently is an extremely lucrative job, but the company had him train new recruits on the supply desk, none of whom had his plumbing background and all of whom then got moved into sales. The company said he was too valuable at his job. I immediately thought of all the female bank tellers who told me stories about training others. He got so pissed off he quit that job and joined his father’s business. His father is a property manager for a huge developer.

There are many, many lucrative jobs that women never get into. I was involved in a job where we checked the job details of clients, and holy crap, the money that various managers at a car dealership make, like Parts Manager, is staggering. If you wonder why getting your car repaired at the dealership is so expensive, remember somebody has to cover the cost of those $150k to $250k or more jobs in the dealership.

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50 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

After four years he quit because he saw so much in-fighting among the trades he said he couldn’t stand it anymore, much to the dismay of his parents who begged him to finish the fifth year and then quit.

To this particular point:

When I was still on the tools as a residential sparky [rough-in, not finishing] we showed up to a house when we were supposed to but the trade prior was two or three days behind and hadn't even started yet. So we boxed the house and called it, but when we arrived the next morning the tinbasher had already gone through the entire place and bashed out [destroyed, mind] every every box we'd installed [all the single and +gang switch boxes, plugs, etc] except for the ceiling light boxes and pots [he even trashed the wall mount light boxes] 

That shit almost went very wrong lol 

Edited by JGP
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America [apologies to Canada, Mexico and further south -- I didn't write the caption!] needs carpenters and plumbers. Try telling that to Gen Z

https://www.npr.org/2023/01/05/1142817339/america-needs-carpenters-and-plumbers-try-telling-that-to-gen-z

Quote

.... Gen Z interest in trades and skilled work has dropped
The application rate for young people seeking technical jobs — like plumbing, building and electrical work — dropped by 49% in 2022 compared to 2020, according to data from online recruiting platform Handshake shared with NPR. ....

So it kind of looks like what these whining put-upon guys who aren't going to college or graduating from h.s., while  girls get all the good stuff from friendships and professional mutual help organizations and educations, really want is everything, but not to do anything, while women aren't supposed to get anything either to keep the field level for men to not compete.

The guys don't want girls to be builders, carpenters, plumbers, electricians or engineers either.  Go figger. Funny, though.  The only person my brother could find to take his place running the aeronautics electrical system laboratory was a young woman.  He couldn't find a single male candidate with the qualifications necessary.

Edited by Zorral
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6 hours ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

At least there are now some women participating in the discussion....

One thing to consider in the educational outcome discussion:  women have to be better on every single level to be successful in the most lucrative careers.  That is, there is a much high cost to women for mediocrity than there is to men.  Thus, women (if they wish to be successful in such careers) need to try harder and be better and tick every. single. box. (and they still statistically are less likely to be at the very top than a similarly diligent and talented man).  

 

 

Completely anecdotical: my current employment is a kind of start up within a huge multi national company. When we started 2018, we all had no idea what do do, but we're all highly trained professionals. From the about 20 percent women from the first generation almost every one has been promoted or changed job mostly within the company to get a promotion. The exceptions either startet their own business or in two cases lost a power struggle and had to leave. The one from this or the next wave of employment who is still at base level had two children with one year maternity leave in that time.
I think all of those promotions were highly deserved though.

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1 hour ago, kiko said:

Completely anecdotical: my current employment is a kind of start up within a huge multi national company. When we started 2018, we all had no idea what do do, but we're all highly trained professionals. From the about 20 percent women from the first generation almost every one has been promoted or changed job mostly within the company to get a promotion. The exceptions either startet their own business or in two cases lost a power struggle and had to leave. The one from this or the next wave of employment who is still at base level had two children with one year maternity leave in that time.
I think all of those promotions were highly deserved though.

I have hard data on big law firms.  The data, at least in the big law corner of the legal industry, tell the story I proffered above.  I believe based on less hard data that I have on banks, accounting firms, and consulting firms, that those places are not that different.

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1 minute ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

I have hard data on big law firms.  The data, at least in the big law corner of the legal industry, tell the story I proffered above.  I believe based on less hard data that I have on banks, accounting firms, and consulting firms, that those places are not that different.

I can totally believe that. I'm working in an engineering company. Not saying me everything is rosy here, but merits do count. Strangely enough, none of the PhDs that started on the same level as me have been promoted yet. 

But back to the topic. I don't think the women here had to be better, but those I know personally definitely wanted that promotion, while lots of the guys seem to be happy with their expert career.

 

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9 minutes ago, kiko said:

I can totally believe that. I'm working in an engineering company. Not saying me everything is rosy here, but merits do count. Strangely enough, none of the PhDs that started on the same level as me have been promoted yet. 

But back to the topic. I don't think the women here had to be better, but those I know personally definitely wanted that promotion, while lots of the guys seem to be happy with their expert career.

 

Yeah, and actually what the data show is that merit does matter to a certain extent.  Superstars of both genders get promoted in equal numbers.  But there are very few of those.  It’s when you get below the people who are absolutely undeniably the best that things diverge.  But law firms bring in 50/50 first year classes.  This has been true basically my whole career (20 years).  Partner ranks aren’t close to 50/50.

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22 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

This has been true basically my whole career (20 years).  Partner ranks aren’t close to 50/50.

A good friend of mine, a senior partner in a huge Canadian law firm, told me about some of the hostility male lawyers had towards female lawyers. Male lawyers were viewed as working harder and at longer hours. Male lawyers didn’t take maternity leave (and not parental leave either, a Canadian right). But the biggest beef of all, most women still marry men years older than them. And when hubby retires, well, so what if I’m a managing partner, I’m leaving because my husband is retiring and we want to enjoy the senior years together. (You know, women wanting a balanced life?) But the male managing partners stay there to lead, often into their 70s. Damn women retiring at fucking 60 years old, abandoning the firm after the firm showed their support and made them managing partners. 

Sound familiar?

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On 1/4/2023 at 8:13 AM, Heartofice said:

I mean it's interesting you pick a footballer and a rapper as examples there, left wing darlings as well which I guess is what makes them positive role models? Isn't one of the problems that boys only have aspirations to become footballers or get into music, rather than engage in education or work in other fields.

Here, I can suggest an excellent positive male role model. He was suffered the tragic loss of his mother when he was young. He served in the military, chose to leave his family's business and make his own way, married a strong woman of color, is a devoted father, and does a ton of charity work.

I speak, of course, of Prince Harry, Duke of Sussex.

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1 hour ago, DanteGabriel said:

Here, I can suggest an excellent positive male role model. He was suffered the tragic loss of his mother when he was young. He served in the military, chose to leave his family's business and make his own way, married a strong woman of color, is a devoted father, and does a ton of charity work.

I speak, of course, of Prince Harry, Duke of Sussex.

Too woke.:angry2:

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I think it's totally reasonable to be concerned about declining educational success rates for men. I fully encourage men or anyone who wants to try to tackle that issue. Start support groups for men in college! Set up mentorships! Provide plans and guides for those who don't have personal experience or know those who do! Have career circles and book clubs and whatever you can think of!

But "well not everything is perfect for men so misogyny is the logical outcome" is straight up bullshit.

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18 minutes ago, Starkess said:

Start support groups for men in college!

I mean, as someone who's attended and/or worked for colleges his entire adult life, pretty sure they're essentially one giant support group for men already.

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