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Andrew Tate - sex trafficker


BigFatCoward
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1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Really though, as an example of someone who has been utterly emasculated and mostly comes across as a sad whiney child who moans and complains rather than taking positive steps, Harry would be a good anti role model for masculinity.

What is your definition of being emasculated? I mean, marrying who he wanted and sticking with it at cost of losing all the privileges his royalty status afforded him doesn't sound to me like something an emasculated man would do.

33 minutes ago, Week said:

 

UK police and prosecutors so egregiously sat on evidence that they've apologized to the victims who came forward to report. They should also apologize to all who were victimized after they protected Andrew Tate.

I'm not sure it's fair to say UK police and prosecutors protected Andrew Tate. What would their interest be to do so? It is possible (not certain) that the case was just not as good.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I don't believe this woman's account of what happened or that I believe Tate's version. It's just that "I saw it happen" is not strong enough of an evidence to convict only on that. After a while has passed you can no longer get valid physical evidence (medical exam results, for example), and it's especially after investigation finds messages between the victim and the witness that could be interpreted as two of them trying to frame Tate for this.

17 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I think there is a difference between paying respect and being emotionally manipulated and becoming subservient.

And what exactly makes you think you can tell which one he is doing of the two?

Did you consider the possibility he was emotionally manipulated by and became subservient to his family and this is his breakout from that?

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Or Joffrey.

Do you seriously think these comparisons to child-predators and murderous tyrants are fair?

45 minutes ago, mormont said:

I think the Harry stuff is pretty on-topic at least as regards male role models. The suggestion that abusing women is bad but paying too much respect to them is equally bad? That's a pretty great example of how toxic masculinity warps your brain.

Benevolent misogyny in action—it’s okay for men to treat women with some degree of politeness—but always remember whose supposed to be in charge.

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1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Taking the love of your life's side over your family's isn't emasculating, it's pretty normal, and that's before you factor in it's that piece of shit family.

Indeed, who were Harry's positive role models? His molester uncle? His cold, clumsily philandering dad?

I don't find him particularly admirable but he's done a better job than most escaping that fishbowl of inbred molester protectors.

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33 minutes ago, baxus said:

What is your definition of being emasculated? I mean, marrying who he wanted and sticking with it at cost of losing all the privileges his royalty status afforded him doesn't sound to me like something an emasculated man would do.

I'd say some positive masculine qualities would be knowing your own mind, confidence and being able to lead others. Harry however doesn't have his own opinions, here merely parrots those of his wife, completely changing his own opinions to mirror hers.
He isn't strong enough to stand up to an emotional manipulator, he gives in and follows them, doing everything they want ( "What Meghan wants Meghan gets") even if it means destroying his own life and breaking all ties from his family. He doesn't lead, he follows. He has been emasculated by Meghan and is not a positive role model. 

It is actually really rather sad. 

Edited by Heartofice
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So what shall we label someone who always has, and, alas, always will present as a 'sad whiney child who moans and complains," while the only steps that have been taken to hate on women generally, blame women's encroachments for every societal ill, as well as blaming them for men behaving toward them as badly as so many do -- blame the victim much? -- as well as expressing at the very best disdain, and often outright disgust about every other Other in his glossary, while fanboying incels and rapists, abusers and plunderers, the richer they are, the more fanboying displayed?

 

Edited by Zorral
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Since I clearly wasn't civil enough, I'll trim it to this:

 

Weak men should thank their lucky stars they still enjoy a modicum of institutional support. From that perspective I suppose it's understandable why change is so threatening, but it's still quite amusing.

Edited by JGP
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58 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I'd say some positive masculine qualities would be knowing your own mind, confidence and being able to lead others. Harry however doesn't have his own opinions, here merely parrots those of his wife, completely changing his own opinions to mirror hers.
He isn't strong enough to stand up to an emotional manipulator, he gives in and follows them, doing everything they want ( "What Meghan wants Meghan gets") even if it means destroying his own life and breaking all ties from his family. He doesn't lead, he follows. He has been emasculated by Meghan and is not a positive role model. 

It is actually really rather sad. 

That's a decent definition of masculinity. One might agree or disagree with that definition, but that's besides the point.

That being said, I think you are making a lot of assumptions regarding Harry here without knowing the facts. Doesn't mean there's no chances your assumptions could turn out to be true, but even if that happens your logic would still be flawed.

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History documents that once Edward VIII, then Duke of Windsor after essentially being pushed off the throne, due, of course, to a woman, from the USA! is the Windsor who is/was the emasculated nazi. 

Facts! And dates! And chronology!  A real man who has real masculine role models, who provides real masculine role model himself, does facts, dates and chronology, and does them right, as part of role modeling, yes?

 

Edited by Zorral
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In the mean:

 

If men knew their own minds, the world would be in a much better place than it is now.

If men were confident, they wouldn't be such babes mewling at the ill perceived assaults upon their idea of themselves.

And, if were men were able to lead, they wouldn't be enthusiastic dick riders.   

 

Very tempted to start a Men thread  [slow grin]

 

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Just now, JGP said:

 

In the mean:

 

If men knew their own minds, the world would be in a much better place than it is now.

If men were confident, they wouldn't be such babes mewling at the ill perceived assaults upon their idea of themselves.

And, if were men were able to lead, they wouldn't be enthusiastic dick riders.   

 

Very tempted to start a Men thread  [slow grin]

 

RUN AWAY!!!!

I find it interesting, that I believe that, if for instance my lovely and very smart (and masculine :leer:) husband and I discussed an issue and at the end of it I ended up adopting his point of view, my femininity would not be called into question.  However, the above discussions suggest that if instead, he came around to my way of thinking there would be a perception that he would be less masculine.  Maybe I’m reading too much into it?  But maybe not?

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1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

I'd say some positive masculine qualities would be knowing your own mind, confidence and being able to lead others. Harry however doesn't have his own opinions, here merely parrots those of his wife, completely changing his own opinions to mirror hers.
He isn't strong enough to stand up to an emotional manipulator, he gives in and follows them, doing everything they want ( "What Meghan wants Meghan gets") even if it means destroying his own life and breaking all ties from his family. He doesn't lead, he follows. He has been emasculated by Meghan and is not a positive role model. 

It is actually really rather sad. 

Didn’t know you were Harry’s confidante of many years

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2 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

RUN AWAY!!!!

[low chuckle]

 

3 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

I find it interesting, that I believe that, if for instance my lovely and very smart (and masculine :leer:) husband and I discussed an issue and at the end of it I ended up adopting his point of view, my femininity would not be called into question.  However, the above discussions suggest that if instead, he came around to my way of thinking there would be a perception that he would be less masculine.  Maybe I’m reading too much into it?  But maybe not?

Nope, you're not.

But after that, can the board observe a moment of silence to respect the weak men whose thoughts Mlle might sway with her salient observation?

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5 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

RUN AWAY!!!!

I find it interesting, that I believe that, if for instance my lovely and very smart (and masculine :leer:) husband and I discussed an issue and at the end of it I ended up adopting his point of view, my femininity would not be called into question.  However, the above discussions suggest that if instead, he came around to my way of thinking there would be a perception that he would be less masculine.  Maybe I’m reading too much into it?  But maybe not?

Well, it works like that over here too.  But, as we know, this is merely anecdotal, not A FACT!  Except within the relationship as perceived by those who are in it.  :cheers:

 

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1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

I'd say some positive masculine qualities would be knowing your own mind, confidence and being able to lead others. Harry however doesn't have his own opinions, here merely parrots those of his wife, completely changing his own opinions to mirror hers.
He isn't strong enough to stand up to an emotional manipulator, he gives in and follows them, doing everything they want ( "What Meghan wants Meghan gets") even if it means destroying his own life and breaking all ties from his family. He doesn't lead, he follows. He has been emasculated by Meghan and is not a positive role model. 

It is actually really rather sad. 

I knew we had a few ~ celebs lurking in the bushes in this community, but I had no idea we had Harry and Meghan’s therapist in here. Say, Doc, while I have got here, can you settle an argument I was having earlier from your professional point of view? My dad was saying that diagnosing the relationships of strangers without at least access to their therapy session notes is considered, in psychological terms, subjective horseshit projection, and I was saying it’s just stupid. Now granted, dad’s the one with the doctorate in psychology and decades of experience as a therapist/instructor in psychology, but I’m the one who knows ASoiaF, so can you give me something to shut my dad up?

By the by, how is for example ‘knowing your own mind’ a particularly masculine quality? Or are you just thinking of positive traits, in which case you would not be bothered in the least by people saying that intelligence is a positive female quality?

Edited by James Arryn
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Haha, I mean we are all basing our opinions based on the same level of information aren’t we? Whether you think Harry is some heroic ubermench or a poor sad victim of a manipulator you are still using the same sources.

Luckily the Sussex’s are incredibly public with their pronouncements and Harry has been in the public eye since birth, so there is a lot of stuff out there to make a judgment from. 
 

So yeah, let’s not try and play that game.

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31 minutes ago, Zorral said:

History documents that once Edward VIII, then Duke of Windsor after essentially being pushed off the throne, due, of course, to a woman, from the USA! is the Windsor who is/was the emasculated nazi. 

Facts! And dates! And chronology!  A real man who has real masculine role models, who provides real masculine role model himself, does facts, dates and chronology, and does them right, as part of role modeling, yes?

 

We certainly dodged a bullet there.  Edward was a shit of the first order.

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