Defend Roose Bolton

[TheLastWolf]

How come Kanye gets cancelled while these _____ are allowed to proliferate on this forum?

[Gentlemen Prefer Blondes]

Walder Frey was justified for betraying and destroying the Starks.  I don't think Roose can make the same defense because he had his chances to turn against the Starks as soon as they met the Lannisters in battle.  I will gladly accept an excuse from the Freys but would hesitate to do the same for Roose.  

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

1 hour ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

Walder Frey was justified for betraying and destroying the Starks.  I don't think Roose can make the same defense because he had his chances to turn against the Starks as soon as they met the Lannisters in battle.  I will gladly accept an excuse from the Freys but would hesitate to do the same for Roose.  

He was justified in turning on them, not massacring them in the way they did.

[Son of Man]

The defense will hold water in a fair and formal legal proceeding.  Though it will not stand a moral scrutiny because Roose Bolton was sabotaging Robb Stark from the start of the campaign.  The Starks did not become tainted rebels until Robb was declared king.  It became treason because it was a declaration of secession or the attempt at it.  They failed and Robb never became king but it was not for a lack of trying.  I forgive Walder but can not do the same for Roose.  Roose was an opportunists. 

[astarkchoice]

A major question about rooses actions are whetheror not  ramsays actions where under orders or improvising

A) the taking and 'marriage '  of lady hornwood

B)the betrayal of the attempt to take back winterfell

 

Now the 1st one was most likely ramsay himself, the death  of lord hornwood and son started the remaining northern lords squabbling over her lands and ramsay in his derranged sociopathic way probably saw this as the checkmate move to secure the lands for house bolton over the others.

 

The 2nd one is the tricky one ....once the 'reek.' persona allowed.him.to.escape winterfell ramsay comes back and couldve been  part of the stark fightback but chooses a sucker punch battle that puts the north up for grabs. 

The question remains did ramsay do this on his own or did he recieve instructions when he went to the dreadfort for his forces?

I think once his treatment of lady hornwood got out ramsay and roose HAD to act , even if ramsay fights heroicaly for the north hel be punished ...if not executed or sent to the watch  thus roose is minus a heir and at his age  as he says boy heirs are the ruin of great houses thus cant make a new one.

By this stage we can assume  lord frey has reached out to roose at this point who in turn has been speaking to   tywin through an unmonitered back channel (tywins sister is married to a frey)

 

 

[astarkchoice]

52 minutes ago, Son of Man said:

The defense will hold water in a fair and formal legal proceeding.  Though it will not stand a moral scrutiny because Roose Bolton was sabotaging Robb Stark from the start of the campaign.  The Starks did not become tainted rebels until Robb was declared king.  It became treason because it was a declaration of secession or the attempt at it.  They failed and Robb never became king but it was not for a lack of trying.  I forgive Walder but can not do the same for Roose.  Roose was an opportunists. 

He def wasnt sabotaging him from the start..the suprise attack on the lannister camp very nearly suceeded , hell it came down to the  wire timewise.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

The only defense Roose would have by today standards would be of him being irresponsible for his actions since he's a sociopath andwould have to be put in an asylum, though he's a very evil one. 

Edited January 2 by Terrorthatflapsinthenight9

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

The only defense Roose would have by today standards would be of him being irresponsible for his actions since he's a sociopath and put in an asylum. 

That's not even a full defence where I live. Psychopathy/Sociopathy don't meet the criteria for mental illnesses that can excuse you for committing a crime.

The main thing is that you understand what you are doing and that it is wrong, as opposed to the kind of mental illness where you genuinely can't see that what you are doing is wrong or aren't aware of what you are doing.

[Groo]

3 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

The question remains did ramsay do this on his own or did he recieve instructions when he went to the dreadfort for his forces?

As much as I hate to admit it, I don't see how Ramsay could have received explicit instructions. Everyone thought he was dead. No one knew that he was being held as "Reek" at Winterfell. After he got back to the Dreadfort, he would have needed to get word to Roose that he was alive, which would have been difficult with the ironborn holding Moat Cailin. Then he would have needed to wait for instructions to get back to him. The timeline is awfully tight for that especially since Ramsay was racing to get to Winterfell before a relief force came. To top it all off, Ramsay isn't exactly the patient type to sit around waiting for proper orders.

[astarkchoice]

19 minutes ago, Groo said:

As much as I hate to admit it, I don't see how Ramsay could have received explicit instructions. Everyone thought he was dead. No one knew that he was being held as "Reek" at Winterfell. After he got back to the Dreadfort, he would have needed to get word to Roose that he was alive, which would have been difficult with the ironborn holding Moat Cailin. Then he would have needed to wait for instructions to get back to him. The timeline is awfully tight for that especially since Ramsay was racing to get to Winterfell before a relief force came. To top it all off, Ramsay isn't exactly the patient type to sit around waiting for proper orders.

Communication wise theres the ravens

But yeah you are probably right about the time possibly being too tight to raise men and race back all the way to winterfell to await instructions

 

So in terms of rooses actions hed have been acting on an afteraction raven  report from ramsay that means he  simply has to be on board for the red wedding now  (assuming he wasnt 100% on board already)

Edited January 2 by astarkchoice

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

4 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

A major question about rooses actions are whetheror not  ramsays actions where under orders or improvising

A) the taking and 'marriage '  of lady hornwood

B)the betrayal of the attempt to take back winterfell

 

Now the 1st one was most likely ramsay himself, the death  of lord hornwood and son started the remaining northern lords squabbling over her lands and ramsay in his derranged sociopathic way probably saw this as the checkmate move to secure the lands for house bolton over the others.

 

The 2nd one is the tricky one ....once the 'reek.' persona allowed.him.to.escape winterfell ramsay comes back and couldve been  part of the stark fightback but chooses a sucker punch battle that puts the north up for grabs. 

The question remains did ramsay do this on his own or did he recieve instructions when he went to the dreadfort for his forces?

I think once his treatment of lady hornwood got out ramsay and roose HAD to act , even if ramsay fights heroicaly for the north hel be punished ...if not executed or sent to the watch  thus roose is minus a heir and at his age  as he says boy heirs are the ruin of great houses thus cant make a new one.

By this stage we can assume  lord frey has reached out to roose at this point who in turn has been speaking to   tywin through an unmonitered back channel (tywins sister is married to a frey)

 

 

Ramsay can't have sacked and burned Winterfell without Roose's knowledge and approval, the fact that he ordered his men to not do anything to the Frey wards and took them under his wing instead of enslaving them or using them for his sick hobbies is a proof that he had instructions from Roose. 

[astarkchoice]

13 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Ramsay can't have sacked and burned Winterfell without Roose's knowledge and approval, the fact that he ordered his men to not do anything to the Frey wards and took them under his wing instead of enslaving them or using them for his sick hobbies is a proof that he had instructions from Roose. 

Yeah it does seem by that point roose was on board the red wedding and probably sent word by raven

[Groo]

40 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Ramsay can't have sacked and burned Winterfell without Roose's knowledge and approval, the fact that he ordered his men to not do anything to the Frey wards and took them under his wing instead of enslaving them or using them for his sick hobbies is a proof that he had instructions from Roose. 

The plans for the Red Wedding might already have been underway before Ramsay showed back up at the Dreadfort. He might have heard what was going on when he got there and improvised the sacking of Winterfell onto Roose's plans. Roose's plans only really depended on Bran and Rickon being dead, which everyone thought at that point, and not on Winterfell being in Bolton hands before the Red Wedding.

[Ring3r]

13 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

In all seriousness though, I would not be surprised if it reached the stage where people claim Aeron 'led Euron on'...

Given the various "arguments" I've seen on this forum, I wouldn't be surprised if somebody here tried to paint Jeffrey Dahmer as a classically trained chef.

[TheLastWolf]

44 minutes ago, Ring3r said:

Jeffrey Dahmer as a classically trained chef

If you are what you eat Your Honour, my client is deffo innocent!

[Craving Peaches]

46 minutes ago, Ring3r said:

I wouldn't be surprised if somebody here tried to paint Jeffrey Dahmer as a classically trained chef.

 

1 minute ago, TheLastWolf said:

If you are what you eat Your Honour, my client is deffo innocent!

I haven't watched the Netflix series but did he...cook...it?

[The Sunland Lord]

Why defend the Leech fetishist 

[Ring3r]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

 

I haven't watched the Netflix series but did he...cook...it?

"them"  I think the word you're looking for is "them"

[Quoth the raven,]

On 1/1/2023 at 11:39 AM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

WARNING:  Long Article

I wrote an article expressing my sincere hope for the survival of the Frey family. 

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/160376-hope-for-the-frey-family/#comment-8777748

This article will be different because it is a defense of Roose Bolton.  It is not a hope for his survival because I do not believe there is any chance of that.  The fate of Lord Roose of House Bolton will be settled before Her Grace, Daenerys Targaryen, arrives in Westeros.  This is me arguing with you in support of Roose Bolton and to persuade you to look at things from his eyes.  I will begin with the background since decisions are not made in the isolation of a vacuum. 

Roose Bolton was called to war twice in a span of time amounting to less than 20 years.  It is not for anything he did.  First, Lord Rickard's daughter was kidnapped.  Or so the Starks were claiming.  Roose was intelligent enough to know better.  So off to the south he went, risking life and limb for the Starks.  No doubt he had lost many valuable people on behalf of the Starks.  The plundering of King's Landing only compensated a little.  He got called again to bleed for the Starks.  This time, the wolf father got arrested for treason.  To refuse would mean the end of his family because the Starks are not the forgiving kind. 

Roose has an ally in Lady Barbrey.  The woman has a theory she calls "Rickard's Southron Ambitions" which involved the Winterfell maester.  The objective of this sinister conspiracy was to oppose the Targaryen rule.  That was enough to make Rickard, Brandon, Lyanna, and their friends guilty of the highest treason.  All of this was not known until after the end of the rebellion. The Starks are calling for help again.  So Roose had to be thinking, "these damn Starks are dragging me to war again because of another vile southern ambition."  And he would be correct.  Part of the reason the Starks went south is to marry daughter Sansa to Baratheon prince Joffrey.  The Starks wanted a little social climbing.  It blew up in their faces and they are presently calling their banners to war.   It is awkward.  He is again asked to betray a king.  The Starks have already forced him to betray his king before.  He betrayed King Aerys II, a Targaryen monarch, for the Starks.  They are now asking him to do it again.  He cannot refuse the Stark's call and keep his head. 

Treason is wrong.  Rebellion is wrong.  Like Walder Frey, Roose has very little option.  Roose obeys the Starks and is now guilty of treason.  Law and duty demand he find a way to stop the Stark Rebellion.  Survival demands he must appease King Joffrey which meant he had to make peace with Tywin Lannister.  The unfortunate fact is, things cannot go back to the way they were, with the Starks in command at the north.  That would mean the loss of his head.  What he did to help escapee Jaime at Harrenhal will come out eventually.  Robb Stark will punish him for a certainty.  Robb did just that to Rickard Karstark.  The Starks will need to be thoroughly defeated and left without power. 

The man who keeps a quiet land and a quiet people was forced by the restless, treasonous, noisy Starks to march to war again.  Roose successfully defeats the rebellion with the help of his new father-in-law, the generous Lord Walder Frey.  A peaceful, quiet man who was also forced to rebel by the Starks and their allies.  Together they bring the Starks to their knees and decapitates the head of the rebels.  Their method earns them the displeasure of the other houses but it kept them from suffering casualties.  They were able to avoid fighting a battle which they were not likely to win. 

My defense relies on the argument that Roose Bolton had no choice.  The forum regulars will be divided again on another controversial issue.  However, in my opinion, Roose was forced by circumstances and the Starks to kill Robb.  A pardon should  be given to Roose of House Bolton for his role in the scandal now known as the red wedding.  He will remain Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North.  His future heirs with Lady Walda Frey Bolton will inherit his lands and titles in perpetuity. 

 

Roose and Walder were put in a similar situation to Lord Eustace.  They had to choose a side.  I can understand and support Lord Walder.  He was wronged by the Starks.  You can also say Roose was wronged because he was forced to rebel against his own king.  

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 1/1/2023 at 1:53 PM, kissdbyfire said:

OP: defend Roose Bolton.

Me: Why?

Myself: "Well first I would position Roose at the Twins because it's a pretty strong castle and neither the North nor the crown have control of both sides of the Trident. Then if that were under threat I'd have him travel north -- asking the crannogmen to take it easy because OP is making me defend Roose and it's not really fair -- leaving behind a strong garrison at Moat Cailin on his way to the Dreadfort. Then I would probably just have him prepare for siege by collecting all harvests and burning the fields around the DF."

That should get him at least 2-3 years, @James Fenimore Cooper XXII. I don't know what else I can do with just the resources of the Freys and the Boltons. Please advise