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Why the Fables of the Seven Don't Tell About Others?


Corvo the Crow

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2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

It as all the correct magic words to entice me /cdn-cgi/mirage/d061fbc8a99b74d9127f1b0a19a8d29641ec2a7e3541937299ee1540bc7d0bf1/1280/https://asoiaf.westeros.org/uploads/emoticons/default_cheers.gif

Then I’d like your opinion as Val&Jon Expert please :bowdown:

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8 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I fully concede that neither of us know for sure, and we both get to choose our preferred takes until more is known. My reason for thinking that human sacrifice is the older practice is two things: 1) we have seen instances elsewhere of old traditions and myths that reflect actual magic. Sending ravens is an example, as is the kiss of fire. It was seen as simply tradition, but there is a magical root to it. 2) We already know that the weirwoods drink blood and slowly drain life energies from the greenseers who sit upon them. That's verified blood magic, and as I said, GRRM won't sugarcoat the morality of blood magic. So, let's say that in the event that they always did only execute criminals, then I think that GRRM will make us feel the moral horror of even that. He will make clear the costs of this power, whatever details eventually do come to light.

Do we know they drain life energy? If they drain life energy, how come Bloodraven gets to be over 120 years old?

Do weirwoods "drink" blood? Bran tastes blood, but that seems a natural consequence of blood seeping into soil surrounding the roots.

So, no I don't think that's verified blood magic at all.

We know the moral horror of execution via Ned's beheading, the live burning of starving men who committed cannibalism of the dead in the most understandable circumstances (and just as well understandable that a leader of an army does not want to give anyone ideas), the poisoning of Joffrey.

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1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

Do weirwoods "drink" blood? Bran tastes blood, but that seems a natural consequence of blood seeping into soil surrounding the roots.

Well, I'm not arguing that they use their mouths to imbibe the blood. They soak it up, but this soaking up is not incidental. Their leaves, sap, and seeds have the color of blood. Greenseers' power comes from their blood, and they are wedded to the trees by drinking this blood red substance. And they taste blood when the tree absorbs it after a sacrifice. I guess we all have different standards and perspectives, but for me, this is GRRM hitting me over the head and saying "WEIRWOOD BLOOD MAGIC! KIND OF CREEPY!"

5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Do we know they drain life energy? If they drain life energy, how come Bloodraven gets to be over 120 years old?

I did say "slowly" drain. Leaf says that "most of him has gone into the tree." Bran is quite disturbed by this corpselike entity, and so are we readers. Beyond the sheer grotesquery of it, Bloodraven's undead appearance looks very similar to the Undying of Qarth, wedded as they are to their own magical tree network. That doesn't mean he's villainous, or that the weirwoods have any morality at all. They might indeed just be a Greeshka. But the people who take part in the blood sacrifice will be implicated. 

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12 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Well, I'm not arguing that they use their mouths to imbibe the blood. They soak it up, but this soaking up is not incidental. Their leaves, sap, and seeds have the color of blood. Greenseers' power comes from their blood, and they are wedded to the trees by drinking this blood red substance. And they taste blood when the tree absorbs it after a sacrifice. I guess we all have different standards and perspectives, but for me, this is GRRM hitting me over the head and saying "WEIRWOOD BLOOD MAGIC! KIND OF CREEPY!"

I did say "slowly" drain. Leaf says that "most of him has gone into the tree." Bran is quite disturbed by this corpselike entity, and so are we readers. Beyond the sheer grotesquery of it, Bloodraven's undead appearance looks very similar to the Undying of Qarth,

Hard disagree that BR looks like anything to do with Qarth aside from GRRM playing with red herrings. There is life in a weirwood unlike the desiccated undying ones. Bran was always interested in "scary kid stories" and Old Nan (an undying one) loved to tell him these stories to give him chills. The point to Bran being introduced (as it is for readers) to the scary stories (as he was introduced to being the leader of Winterfell at a young age) is to prepare for the near future of events that are about to happen in TWOW and beyond.

12 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

 

wedded as they are to their own magical tree network. That doesn't mean he's villainous, or that the weirwoods have any morality at all. They might indeed just be a Greeshka. But the people who take part in the blood sacrifice will be implicated. 

FIre is the Greeshka, almost word for word when you compare the stories line by line. Literally. All of those ruby jewlery bits are like the small greeshka that eventually join to the larger mother.

 

Adding: and this even includes bells being run that are connected to the blood-fire-death-greeshka elements in both stories.

Line by line Greeshka are fire-elementals.

 

For those reading this forum post that do not know what GRRM's greeshka are... here ya go...

https://fattestleechoficeandfire.com/a-song-for-lya-transcribed/

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28 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Davos is generally not a religious zealot. However, he has experienced moments of religious zeal, after surviving the Battle on the Blackwater. Notably, that zeal led him to try to murder Melisandre for something she took no part in. I don't think GRRM likes Melisandre's zealotry, but he doesn't paint Davos in the best light here either.

Again, zeal and zealotry are not the same thing. 

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2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Hard disagree that BR looks like anything to do with Qarth aside from GRRM playing with red herrings. There is life in a weirwood unlike the desiccated undying ones. Bran was always interested in "scary kid stories" and Old Nan (an undying one) loved to tell him these stories to give him chills. The point to Bran being introduced (as it is for readers) to the scary stories (as he was introduced to being the leader of Winterfell at a young age) is to prepare for the near future of events that are about to happen in TWOW and beyond.

I agree that the Shade trees are corrupted, and hence different from weirwoods. So maybe what they do with the Undying is different. Certainly the Undying seem desperate for Dany's life fire. Also the Shade wine tastes like spoiled meat. I'm not saying they're the same; I'm saying there are clear similarities. And given that most of Bloodraven has gone into the tree, it doesn't seem unreasonable to say that there is some sort of exchange for the magical setup they've got...just like with the Greeshka.

4 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

FIre is the Greeshka, almost word for word when you compare the stories line by line. Literally. All of those ruby jewlery bits are like the small greeshka that eventually join to the larger mother.

Line by line Greeshka are fire-elementals.

I can agree with that. I actually just recently posted a topic about the fire and warmth imagery in wolves and weirwoods. But that wasn't my point. My point was blood magic, and its moral implications. Weirwoods are probably beyond morality, but the folks who use blood magic for power are not.

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29 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

I'm not sure what the fine distinction is between zeal and zealotry.  Obviously they are related concepts.  All I ever tried to say is that GRRM's portrayal of religion is not without nuance.

Sure, relgiion is good when it is good and bad when it is bad.  But saying that zeal can be good and that "zealotry" is by definition bad does not really tell me anything.

All right, then how about the definition of zeal and zealot? Hope this helps. 

zeal
/zēl/
 
noun
  1. great energy or enthusiasm in pursuit of a cause or an objective.
    "his zeal for privatization"
 
zeal·ot
/ˈzelət/
 
noun
  1. 1. 
    a person who is fanatical and uncompromising in pursuit of their religious, political, or other ideals.
     
     
     
     
    Similar:
    fanatic
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22 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Well, I'm not arguing that they use their mouths to imbibe the blood. They soak it up, but this soaking up is not incidental. Their leaves, sap, and seeds have the color of blood. Greenseers' power comes from their blood, and they are wedded to the trees by drinking this blood red substance. And they taste blood when the tree absorbs it after a sacrifice. I guess we all have different standards and perspectives, but for me, this is GRRM hitting me over the head and saying "WEIRWOOD BLOOD MAGIC! KIND OF CREEPY!"

For me it shows nothing but the natural process: blood soaks into the ground, and the nutrients will eventually be taken in and used for new life. It represents the cycle of life, which is not blood magic at all. If you're creeped out by natural processes ...

22 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I did say "slowly" drain. Leaf says that "most of him has gone into the tree." Bran is quite disturbed by this corpselike entity, and so are we readers. Beyond the sheer grotesquery of it, Bloodraven's undead appearance looks very similar to the Undying of Qarth, wedded as they are to their own magical tree network. That doesn't mean he's villainous, or that the weirwoods have any morality at all. They might indeed just be a Greeshka. But the people who take part in the blood sacrifice will be implicated. 

Bloodraven is nothing like the Undying. He's the opposite. He's not corrupt, but simply morphing with nature and he will die. The Undying Ones are corrupted, completely blue and use glamors to hide their true selves, and eat young people with a foretold future to steal their life and live forever. Bloodraven has not been shown to be anything like that.

And I'm with Leech here when it comes to Greeshka and the red pyramids of 7 Times Never Kill a Man. I've noticed you link those to weirwoods, while they are fire or fire&ice hivemind stuff that manipulates its targets to behave against their very own nature. Weirwoods, greenseers and old gods are nothing like that at all. 

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2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

For me it shows nothing but the natural process: blood soaks into the ground, and the nutrients will eventually be taken in and used for new life. It represents the cycle of life, which is not blood magic at all. If you're creeped out by natural processes ...

Well, all I can say is that I heartily disagree. And given the dramatic deviation in our interpretation of this chapter, perhaps we should just do the ol' "agree to disagree" at this point and move on.

I love chatting about different interpretations, but it seems like we're hitting a wall here, and that's fine. GRRM doesn't spell everything out, and people will have different interpretations (particularly given the huge protracted waits between books).

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35 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I agree that the Shade trees are corrupted, and hence different from weirwoods. So maybe what they do with the Undying is different. Certainly the Undying seem desperate for Dany's life fire. Also the Shade wine tastes like spoiled meat. I'm not saying they're the same; I'm saying there are clear similarities. And given that most of Bloodraven has gone into the tree, it doesn't seem unreasonable to say that there is some sort of exchange for the magical setup they've got...just like with the Greeshka.

Shade trees are their own "thing", own species or whatever you want to call it. They are corrupted in the sense that they are put in the path of the fire elements such as Dany and Euron, but of those two, only Dany can beet them (which is another reason of many we know Euron will fail masterfully and hilariously). Dany's HotU experience also tried to teach her various wisdom and and speech. She refused because she is being set up as such for the final ending.

A major difference between the trees is one acts a "library", the Acedemy of Human Knowledge if you know what I mean, so any consuming is to benefit all in the end (history lessons to grow from). The Shade trees consume, as fire does, to benefit the self. Look at all the times in-story where readers are told and shown that fire is a "greedy god". .it "consumes" and feeds the self.

So many readers "fall" for the seeming trope GRRM is using here and assume that all of *this* is the same in ASOIAF when it is not. A main, MAIN, ideological conundrum GRRM gives his characters (& readers) is the all important decision of self choice, to think for yourself... to NOT follow the greeshka because it consumes to feed it's own self needs.

 

UPDATING TO ADD QUOTE of Dany and her genetic memory:

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VI

"No. He cannot have my son." She would not weep, she decided. She would not shiver with fear. The Usurper has woken the dragon now, she told herself … and her eyes went to the dragon's eggs resting in their nest of dark velvet. The shifting lamplight limned their stony scales, and shimmering motes of jade and scarlet and gold swam in the air around them, like courtiers around a king.
Was it madness that seized her then, born of fear? Or some strange wisdom buried in her blood? Dany could not have said. She heard her own voice saying, "Ser Jorah, light the brazier."
"Khaleesi?" The knight looked at her strangely. "It is so hot. Are you certain?"
35 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I can agree with that. I actually just recently posted a topic about the fire and warmth imagery in wolves and weirwoods. But that wasn't my point. My point was blood magic, and its moral implications. Weirwoods are probably beyond morality, but the folks who use blood magic for power are not.

I can see what you mean (I think). Again, self choice. There are no "gods" in ASOIAF that re going to walk on page, just what a character thinks of themself at the time. Humans created the religion. There is, however, a "fifth element" universal (whatever you want to call it) that a person of an extreme tendency can use for there own means... if they have a propensity for it. For instance, Dany learns the secrets to fire birthing dragons by watching MMD this whole time, then she says to herself that her knowledge is "buried in her blood". GRRM has said Dany and Bran are the two most magical in the series and we can see them growing and learning side by side, but it's what they do with their knowledge and wisdom that will endure in the end. So yeah, there is a moral element to it, but it is within the user not the object.

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41 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Well, I'm not arguing that they use their mouths to imbibe the blood. They soak it up, but this soaking up is not incidental. Their leaves, sap, and seeds have the color of blood. Greenseers' power comes from their blood, and they are wedded to the trees by drinking this blood red substance. And they taste blood when the tree absorbs it after a sacrifice. I guess we all have different standards and perspectives, but for me, this is GRRM hitting me over the head and saying "WEIRWOOD BLOOD MAGIC! KIND OF CREEPY!"

I did say "slowly" drain. Leaf says that "most of him has gone into the tree." Bran is quite disturbed by this corpselike entity, and so are we readers. Beyond the sheer grotesquery of it, Bloodraven's undead appearance looks very similar to the Undying of Qarth, wedded as they are to their own magical tree network. That doesn't mean he's villainous, or that the weirwoods have any morality at all. They might indeed just be a Greeshka. But the people who take part in the blood sacrifice will be implicated. 

I can’t reply to everything atm, will get back to this later tonight. But really wanted to ask… how can there be any ‘drainage’ at all when Bloodraven has lived far beyond the span of a human life, and even more so when we take into account the average life span in Westeros? I mean, had there been any draining of his life at all, and he would’ve been dead a long, long time ago. 

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3 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Well, all I can say is that I heartily disagree. And given the dramatic deviation in our interpretation of this chapter, perhaps we should just do the ol' "agree to disagree" at this point and move on.

I love chatting about different interpretations, but it seems like we're hitting a wall here, and that's fine. GRRM doesn't spell everything out, and people will have different interpretations (particularly given the huge protracted waits between books).

I'm okay with that.

I do want to clarify why I am saying that Bloodraven is the opposite of the Undying Ones: Bloodraven is eventually self-sacrificing his body to the tree by his own very choice. Nobody else was forcibly sacrifice for Bloodraven to live that long. What Bloodraven does is self-sacrifice, and I'm getting the impression he would have preferred to have lived a shorter life in different circumstances if the guilt would not have eaten him up.

The Undying Ones dupe and force someone else to sacrifice their lives so they could live forever, even if it is as blind, non breathing, unmoving dried up plums stuffed away in some dank maze.

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27 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Hard disagree that BR looks like anything to do with Qarth aside from GRRM playing with red herrings. There is life in a weirwood unlike the desiccated undying ones. Bran was always interested in "scary kid stories" and Old Nan (an undying one) loved to tell him these stories to give him chills. The point to Bran being introduced (as it is for readers) to the scary stories (as he was introduced to being the leader of Winterfell at a young age) is to prepare for the near future of events that are about to happen in TWOW and beyond.

34 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

We also see that Old Nan's bedtime stories don't really tell the truth in many cases but are twisted perversions of it. Giants for example seem to be mostly docile and don't eat meat, let alone human flesh, they are herbivorers, but one must say Wun Wun is eating those veggies almost as ferociously as Tormund eats his chickens.

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Just now, Corvo the Crow said:

We also see that Old Nan's bedtime stories don't really tell the truth in many cases but are twisted perversions of it. Giants for example seem to be mostly docile and don't eat meat, let alone human flesh, they are herbivorers, but one must say Wun Wun is eating those veggies almost as ferociously as Tormund eats his chickens.

Correct.

Further more, the only time we hear of giants doing anything amoral (?) is when we hear of the one in Volantis... a fire ridden element city. Old Nan, gods love her, is biased.

 

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1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Correct.

Further more, the only time we hear of giants doing anything amoral (?) is when we hear of the one in Volantis... a fire ridden element city. Old Nan, gods love her, is biased.

 

And many times she’s just making things scarier to please Bran. 

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Just now, The Fattest Leech said:

Correct.

Further more, the only time we hear of giants doing anything amoral (?) is when we hear of the one in Volantis... a fire ridden element city. Old Nan, gods love her, is biased.

 

Old Nan is a vault of knowledge into the past, but all those knowledge in there exits her mouth as if it through a propaganda machine. In that sense she's a useful device to get to the truth of some things, this is one of the reasons I believe the 13rd LC wasn't exactly evil, because it is Old Nan that tells him of us.

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