Was Catelyn the Most Powerful Woman in Westeros?

[Corvo the Crow]

I'm talking about pre Wot5K. Though she held no power of her own, among the Westorosi women, she was the most well connected in the entire heptarchy. Her father was the Lord Paramount of Riverlands, a region that is rich and powerful and also situated in the middle of Westeros, connecting different regions. Her Mother, also from Riverlands, comes from a powerful family in that region. Through her sister, she is the aunt of the Lord Paramount of the Vale, again a powerful region and her uncle is the Knight of the Bloody Gate, the place that controls entry to the region, her childhood friend who has a crush on her is the Master of Coin, her husband, best buddy to the king, is the Lord Paramount of the North, again a powerful region, and is also the Hand of the King, her daughter is betrothed to the Crown Prince. While no genius at it, she is politaclly minded seen as early as trying to influence Ned for betrothal and hand decisions and she iss atleast somewhat good, first example would probably be how he seized Tyrion, forcing the hands of the knights and household soldiers in the inn, one of my favorite scenes in both the books and the show.

 

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"Lady … Stark?" Masha Heddle said thickly.

"I was still Catelyn Tully the last time I bedded here," she told the innkeep. She could hear the muttering, feel the eyes upon her. Catelyn glanced around the room, at the faces of the knights and sworn swords, and took a deep breath to slow the frantic beating of her heart. Did she dare take the risk? There was no time to think it through, only the moment and the sound of her own voice ringing in her ears. "You in the corner," she said to an older man she had not noticed until now. "Is that the black bat of Harrenhal I see embroidered on your surcoat, ser?"

The man got to his feet. "It is, my lady."

"And is Lady Whent a true and honest friend to my father, Lord Hoster Tully of Riverrun?"

"She is," the man replied stoutly.

Ser Rodrik rose quietly and loosened his sword in its scabbard. The dwarf was blinking at them, blank-faced, with puzzlement in his mismatched eyes.

"The red stallion was ever a welcome sight in Riverrun," she said to the trio by the fire. "My father counts Jonos Bracken among his oldest and most loyal bannermen."

The three men-at-arms exchanged uncertain looks. "Our lord is honored by his trust," one of them said hesitantly.

"I envy your father all these fine friends," Lannister quipped, "but I do not quite see the purpose of this, Lady Stark."

She ignored him, turning to the large party in blue and grey. They were the heart of the matter; there were more than twenty of them. "I know your sigil as well: the twin towers of Frey. How fares your good lord, sers?"

Their captain rose. "Lord Walder is well, my lady. He plans to take a new wife on his ninetieth name day, and has asked your lord father to honor the wedding with his presence."

Tyrion Lannister sniggered. That was when Catelyn knew he was hers. "This man came a guest into my house, and there conspired to murder my son, a boy of seven," she proclaimed to the room at large, pointing. Ser Rodrik moved to her side, his sword in hand. "In the name of King Robert and the good lords you serve, I call upon you to seize him and help me return him to Winterfell to await the king's justice."

 

 

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

I don’t think she had any direct influence over most of the people connected to her. Though if something happened to her they’d all come to her aid.

[astarkchoice]

Cersei by virtue of being queen  her husband commands the 7 kingdoms,crownlands swore to royal family , husband lord of stormlamds and brother in law holds dragonstone , her dad holds the westerlands and her ..ahem brother is warden of the east 

Alerie hightower has gotta be up there by virtue of being maces wife thus her hubby commands westeros superpower ie the reach

 

[John Suburbs]

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I'm talking about pre Wot5K. Though she held no power of her own, among the Westorosi women, she was the most well connected in the entire heptarchy. Her father was the Lord Paramount of Riverlands, a region that is rich and powerful and also situated in the middle of Westeros, connecting different regions. Her Mother, also from Riverlands, comes from a powerful family in that region. Through her sister, she is the aunt of the Lord Paramount of the Vale, again a powerful region and her uncle is the Knight of the Bloody Gate, the place that controls entry to the region, her childhood friend who has a crush on her is the Master of Coin, her husband, best buddy to the king, is the Lord Paramount of the North, again a powerful region, and is also the Hand of the King, her daughter is betrothed to the Crown Prince. While no genius at it, she is politaclly minded seen as early as trying to influence Ned for betrothal and hand decisions and she iss atleast somewhat good, first example would probably be how he seized Tyrion, forcing the hands of the knights and household soldiers in the inn, one of my favorite scenes in both the books and the show.

Power resides where men believe it resides. No more, no less.

[Daena the Defiant]

6 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Cersei by virtue of being queen  her husband commands the 7 kingdoms,crownlands swore to royal family , husband lord of stormlamds and brother in law holds dragonstone , her dad holds the westerlands and her ..ahem brother is warden of the east 

Alerie hightower has gotta be up there by virtue of being maces wife thus her hubby commands westeros superpower ie the reach

 

Yes, but for example, can you see an absent King Robert appointing Cersei to rule in his name, willingly and as a notion of respect and esteem?  Ned specifically appointed Catelyn the regent of the North. 

Also, Catelyn was raised as the heiress to the Riverlands until the birth of her much younger brother. She was received as a worthy emissary when she treated with Renly and the Tyrells.  She has as much "street cred" as a noble matriarch who does not rule in her own right could expect.

[Northern Sword]

No. In the North, yes. But south of the Neck, there are several that would seem to wield greater power. Cersei as queen, her sister as ruler of the vale most certainly and Olenna Tyrell of High Garden all hold more power. At least in my opinion.

[Aebram]

There are a few chapters where Catelyn gives advice to Robb about political and military matters. And for the most part, I think, it's good advice. She seems to be fairly sophisticated about such things.

[Corvo the Crow]

9 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

No. In the North, yes. But south of the Neck, there are several that would seem to wield greater power. Cersei as queen, her sister as ruler of the vale most certainly and Olenna Tyrell of High Garden all hold more power. At least in my opinion.

Cersei exerts little power beyond frivilous things, in fact she’s quite weak for a queen. Even in her own house she’s powerless. She had some power over Jaime and Lancel but only through her “woman’s weapons”, she doesn’t even have any power over her own children, she can’t control Joffrey(Tywin is able to and Tyrion also, to a degree), and her little bit of control over the meek Tommen quickly goes as soon as Tyrells, especially Margaery and Loras enter the picture.

Lysa has control over the Vale Lords, preventing them from entering the war but honestly, it is just poor, very poor writing on GRRM’s part because the half mad Lysa who’s not from the Vale and has no power there widowed with a very young son as lord has more control than Jon Arryn ever did. Seriously, what the heck ? Why Mr. Martin? You could’ve written a dozen reasons for Valemen not joining the war other than simply Lysa saying no. It gets even worse when we learn that the six houses of Lords declarent combined strength of 20.000 make up for more than half of the Vales power and most powerful house, Royce was the one who wanted to aid the RL.

[Ring3r]

No.

[The hairy bear]

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Cersei exerts little power beyond frivilous things, in fact she’s quite weak for a queen. Even in her own house she’s powerless. She had some power over Jaime and Lancel but only through her “woman’s weapons”

I don't think that assessment is fair. She commands the Red Cloaks in King's Landing, and had enough autority to effectively subdue the entire Stark household in King's Landing. She has proved that she has actual power.

Jaime is her sworn protector and Lancel a junior member of her house, so she would outrank them both even without needing to use "her woman's weapon's"

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Lysa has control over the Vale Lords, preventing them from entering the war but honestly, it is just poor, very poor writing on GRRM’s part because the half mad Lysa who’s not from the Vale and has no power there widowed with a very young son as lord has more control than Jon Arryn ever did. Seriously, what the heck ? Why Mr. Martin?

Real history is full of examples of the foreign wives of deceased lords or kings acting as regents for their underage sons. There is nothing wrong with the situation Martin describes.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

I don't think that assessment is fair. She commands the Red Cloaks in King's Landing, and had enough autority to effectively subdue the entire Stark household in King's Landing. She has proved that she has actual power.

 

She had a hundred guards, a dozen knights and one guard captain as part of her queensguard. They are hers to command, lends her some actual, physical power, yes, but that's not what I meant there.

 

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

Real history is full of examples of the foreign wives of deceased lords or kings acting as regents for their underage sons. There is nothing wrong with the situation Martin describes.

Nope, everything's wrong here because of the reasons I have given. Had Vale lords not been unruly even when Jon Arryn was alive and become unruly again immediately after Lysa's death, then yes, I'd have agreed, but it's not. In fact, the only time they are in line is when Lysa is in charge. They have no trouble in going against their lord Jon Arryn even when house Arryn was at it's full might and there wasn't exactly a succession crisis and they have no trouble going against their Crown appointed Lord Protector Petyr Baelish and they take up arms against both but Lysa saying a simple no keeps them in line? Not buying that, sorry.

[Rondo]

Catelyn was connected but Tully + Stark is not nearly as influential as Lannister + Baratheon.  Cat was also wasting away in the iceland of the north.  

[Ring3r]

I'd put her behind the Queen of Thornes and Cersie.  Those, I think, are the two leading ladies.

[Corvo the Crow]

37 minutes ago, Ring3r said:

I'd put her behind the Queen of Thornes and Cersie.  Those, I think, are the two leading ladies.

Leading how? Leading who? Olenna is influential within her family but so far as we know it’s only her descendants and perhaps their spouses. Cersei doesn’t even have an influence on her own children. By AFFC she’s able to form some sphere of influence but nowhere near comparable to Olenna and what little influence she had over her own family(Jaime and Lancel and Tommen) she loses entirely.
 

Cat is the most connected, through blood and marriage and friendship and also has an influence within and over her family, except Lysa who is half mad and under LF’s influence.

[Ring3r]

.....well, I suppose we just haven't read the same books.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Ring3r said:

.....well, I suppose we just haven't read the same books.

Sure seems that way if you think Cersei who can't even control 12 year old(at book start) Joffrey comes before Catelyn who holds a sway over her son who is 3 years older than Joffrey and has it while he's at the head of an army of rowdy Northern lords and does it well enough that his authority isn't questioned(until she pulls her stunt with Jaime). Just give a single instance comparable to Cat's please. Shortly after Cat rejoin with Robb, she had Robb betroth to Walder Frey and put Roose, a calm man at the head of his army instead of Greatjon. She is capable of parlaying with Walder, then Renly and Stannis, who does Cersei parlay with? What decision of Joff she had influenced? Nothing or nothing worthwhile at least.

Tell me about the version of Cersei in your books thats better than Cat, I really am intrigued about this Cersei, she really sounds an interesting person to read.

[Nevets]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Sure seems that way if you think Cersei who can't even control 12 year old(at book start) Joffrey comes before Catelyn who holds a sway over her son who is 3 years older than Joffrey and has it while he's at the head of an army of rowdy Northern lords and does it well enough that his authority isn't questioned(until she pulls her stunt with Jaime). Just give a single instance comparable to Cat's please. Shortly after Cat rejoin with Robb, she had Robb betroth to Walder Frey and put Roose, a calm man at the head of his army instead of Greatjon. She is capable of parlaying with Walder, then Renly and Stannis, who does Cersei parlay with? What decision of Joff she had influenced? Nothing or nothing worthwhile at least.

Tell me about the version of Cersei in your books thats better than Cat, I really am intrigued about this Cersei, she really sounds an interesting person to read.

Robb is a much easier person to guide than Joffrey.  Robb is sensible and amenable to taking advice; Joffrey isn't.

Cersei isn't acting as envoy; she's the one sending envoys.  Baelish didn't go to the Tyrells at Joffrey's direction; it was Cersei and Tyrion that sent him.  And when Cersei wanted Joffrey pulled from the field at the Blackwater and everyone else, including Joffrey, said no, what happened?  Joffrey got pulled.  

Robb listened to Catelyn's advice, but does as he wishes.  He's in charge.  She didn't want Theon sent as envoy to Balon.  Robb sent him anyway.  She advised a peace agreement with the Lannisters a reasonable idea under the circumstances.  When Robb's vassals expressed their unhappiness, Robb went with them.  Catelyn has influence, but no actual power, as in authority.  Cersei has power, especially after Robert's death, though it is often questioned

[Corvo the Crow]

36 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Cersei isn't acting as envoy; she's the one sending envoys.  Baelish didn't go to the Tyrells at Joffrey's direction; it was Cersei and Tyrion that sent him.

 Baelish or Tyrion is the one bringing the Tyrell suggestion. Cersei may "acknowledge" it but that's about it, she doesn't actually have much say over it. 

 

40 minutes ago, Nevets said:

And when Cersei wanted Joffrey pulled from the field at the Blackwater and everyone else, including Joffrey, said no, what happened?  Joffrey got pulled.  

 

She didn't even want him to be there at the first place, it was Tyrion's notion to do that. She even threatened Alayaya over it.

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Tyrion had warned Trant and Kettleblack what would happen to them should any harm come to the king. And Joffrey had a dozen veteran gold cloaks waiting at the foot of the steps. I'm protecting your wretched bastard as well as I can, Cersei, he thought bitterly. See you do the same for Alayaya.

Can't recall Joffrey wanting to stay. But this is Cersei's "power" in effect

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"During the battle. Your sister sent the Kettleblacks to fetch the king back to the Red Keep, the way I hear it. When the gold cloaks saw him leaving, half of them decided they'd leave with him. Ironhand put himself in their path and tried to order them back to the walls. They say Bywater was blistering them good and almost had 'em ready to turn when someone put an arrow through his neck. He didn't seem so fearsome then, so they dragged him off his horse and killed him."

Another debt to lay at Cersei's door. "My nephew," he said, "Joffrey. Was he in any danger?"

"No more'n some, and less than most."

She just ordered some upjumped hedge knights and since there was no scene about it, Joffrey must've been happily obliged, being the craven he is. Cersei ordering Kettleblacks is no different than Catelyn ordering Brienne.

[Daena the Defiant]

4 hours ago, Ring3r said:

.....well, I suppose we just haven't read the same books.

You mean the same Cersei who was being made to remarry against her wishes by her father?  Who was unable to get her adolescent son to stick to the plan and send the Hand of the King to the Wall, instead executing him on a whim, igniting a civil war?

She asserted herself as Queen Regent, and even then her father(!) forced her to accept her disgraced brother to be the Hand, as a check on her decision-making. (And once Cersei was able claim full authority, she ended up rearming militant religious zealots and resulted in her own incarceration and public disgrace, paraded through the streets, nude, shaved and pelted with offal, feces and rotted fruit). 

Cersei was placed in positions of great prestige and authority but she commanded very few people, and was often overruled by her own family.

[Ring3r]

19 hours ago, Daena the Defiant said:

You mean the same Cersei who was being made to remarry against her wishes by her father?  Who was unable to get her adolescent son to stick to the plan and send the Hand of the King to the Wall, instead executing him on a whim, igniting a civil war?

She asserted herself as Queen Regent, and even then her father(!) forced her to accept her disgraced brother to be the Hand, as a check on her decision-making. (And once Cersei was able claim full authority, she ended up rearming militant religious zealots and resulted in her own incarceration and public disgrace, paraded through the streets, nude, shaved and pelted with offal, feces and rotted fruit). 

Cersei was placed in positions of great prestige and authority but she commanded very few people, and was often overruled by her own family.

Keep sticking up for the brother-fucking baby-killing woman who raised and loved a serial killer, who has destroyed literally everything she has ever touched.  It's bound to work out well in the end, unless of course she decides to torture you to death for convenience.

Jesus. Fuck. This place. It's like some kind of alternate reality.