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Harry and Meghan. - This is NOT the Andrew Tate Thread.


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5 hours ago, James Arryn said:

To be clear, the first part of my post was really just a set-up for the second. I was more or less parroting the attacks I see, mostly here. I pay zero attention to this stuff and have no idea how accurate or inaccurate that run-down of their behaviour is.

What I was pointing out is that modern royal families in representative governments are all about superficial gestures and occasional attention-seeking platitudinal ceremony for the express purpose of highlighting their brand. To the extent that they changed their freaking family name to sound less German during a conflict, which is about as superficial ‘virtue signalling’…(not a phrase I enjoy, generally) as it gets. So at worst H & M are just following along in the family tradition.   
 

Which also includes countless public airing of grievances against other members of the clan. My God, it’s like people have forgotten all about Kent and Bill4, or Di or Wallis or Maggie & Pete Townsend or…well, almost all of the royal family’s behaviour for generations, outside of Liz herself. The Georgians probably did more public in-fighting than they did anything else, about mistresses and money and personal animosity and open jealousy, etc. it’s where the idea that if nothing else the RF keep the press busy comes from. Again, Liz was copying a much rarer model for RF types, keeping everything buttoned down et al but like none of her progeny went that route either. Somehow I know Charles likes sucking Camila’s toes, which is remarkable given how little attention I pay to their antics and how much I want to un-know that particular detail (amongst others).

 I think that’s part of it, thinking Liz was the standard when she was very much the exception. Maybe because Jon Arryn raised her? Anyways, both from specific behaviour and societal role, the royal family are all about empty gestures and rituals designed and enacted exclusively for public attention or to shape public opinion, so I’ve never understood any of the flak this particular couple takes for, at worst,  more of the same.

Instead I see this issue as a bit of a Rorschach, with people revealing a lot about themselves with what they see and how vehemently they discuss what they see. Heartofice seems to see A LOT that’s not on the page (unless, again, he’s their confidante or councillor) and he’s extremely angry about what he thinks he sees. To me, that’s not informative about them, much more about him, just as an example.

 

I think it's the hypocrisy of the RF and the British media that really annoys me. All this 'the King is maintaining a dignified silence' when I'm old enough to remember Charles and Di's duelling interviews, books and furious media briefings against each other, with everyone predicting the end of the monarchy. As for the media, well we only know so much about Charles and Camilla's sex life because of an interception of their private phone conversation that the media were happy to splash all over their front pages. They squawk traitor at Harry but if spilling Royal secrets was treason, the gaols would be full of British journalists.

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4 hours ago, Ran said:

I'm shocked that we've a thread to rival Page Six in gossip and tattle about two celebrities, but such is life in the 21st century.

The people responsible for the rise of empty celebrity are... All of us!

 

19 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

I think it's the hypocrisy of the RF and the British media that really annoys me. All this 'the King is maintaining a dignified silence' when I'm old enough to remember Charles and Di's duelling interviews, books and furious media briefings against each other, with everyone predicting the end of the monarchy. 

It's also easy to maintain a dignified silence when you have minions who can leak your attacks to the press.

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3 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Meghan and Harry appear to have not understood that lesson

And that’s arguably more commendable if a person sees what they perceive as an injustice it’s less admirable(though perhaps depending on the circumstances  forgivable) to set back and stay silent for wealth and comfort.

 

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1 hour ago, DanteGabriel said:

I'm shocked that we've a thread to rival Page Six in gossip and tattle about two celebrities, but such is life in the 21st century.

Maybe not shocking considering that somebody dragged Meghan into the Andrew Tate sex criminal thread and thus it got entirely derailed starting this one? :lol:

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41 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Maybe not shocking considering that somebody dragged Meghan into the Andrew Tate sex criminal thread and thus it got entirely derailed starting this one? /cdn-cgi/mirage/68f913271635d22c8dad2252a3fddc53c6bcd90f6f6e469ee4697d387ebe2066/1280/https://asoiaf.westeros.org/uploads/emoticons/default_lol.gif

Don’t worry I’m about to make this conversation into a speculative time travel thread.

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27 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Idk man this plan seems a bit..suss 

There's a dotted line around London and the planners used three different colours. My boss's boss (grand line manager?) thinks he's spoiling us if he uses a serif font. This is a work of pure tactical genius. 

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Because of the virulent irrational attacks here on H&M I read this and looked into the comments. The comments, at least if one begins a skim (which, with nearly 800 comments, is all one would do, right?) with the 'newest' explain why it appears so many in the US are supportive of this family, vs. the monarchy in the UK.  This was interesting to me the mirror the positive, defending comments here, by the way.  In fact, while recognizing so well all the contemporary manners of their shallow media self-centered presentation, commentators are sympathetic to them, partly because that's exactly what so very very very many are doing themselves, even among the commentators.  Everyone is trying to expose themselves in public because that's what we do, and hopefully get media attention for it too -- and even money!   While those who aren't managing to manipulate their internet medias into a fame-money condition are fairly envious of those who do. 

Why Has America Fallen So Hard for Harry and Meghan?

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/08/opinion/prince-harry-meghan-markle.html#commentsContainer

Funny too, isn't it how interest in talking about Andrew Tate here has gone poof now that we brought in Meghan to kick around instead. 

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I read more leaks about Harry and William's [verbatem] allegedly, conversations and it all seems very sad to me.  It's one thing if you decide your family is toxic and want to split from them, it's another to continually invade their privacy by telling the world about emotional and difficult conversations. 

Harry writing how William thought he was being brainwashed by therapy and telling him he loved him and wanted him to be happy, even invoking their sacred 'on our mother's life' language, sounds like a real thing to me, and something that should have remained private.  It sounds like a brother who was concerned.  It also seems that Harry appears to be literally incapable of understanding that some people do not like his wife, including it appears the vast majority of his own family and his previously closest friends.  That may be a testament to his love for her, but it's a little delusional to refuse to accept that not everyone is going to feel the same.

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11 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I read more leaks about Harry and William's [verbatem] allegedly, conversations and it all seems very sad to me.  It's one thing if you decide your family is toxic and want to split from them, it's another to continually invade their privacy by telling the world about emotional and difficult conversations. 

Is it though? I mean, the hits didn't stop when Harry and Meghan left did they? Most people fight with what they got at hand, and if it's just dirt then aim your spears at the assholes that gave it to them, I'd say. 

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6 minutes ago, JGP said:

Is it though? I mean, the hits didn't stop when Harry and Meghan left did they? Most people fight with what they got at hand, and if it's just dirt then aim your spears at the assholes that gave it to them, I'd say. 

Which hits?  What hits did the Royal family put out? If you mean the media, that's expected, especially if you declare war on the tabloids.  The Daily Mail will never let up on them.    It seems to me that the hits are coming from the Sussex side, they are the ones who keep doing interviews and broadcasts airing their grievances.  

You don't find it a little, um, inconsistent, that they iced out her poor slob of a father for cooperating with the media and invading his daughter's privacy, when they are doing the same thing in regard to Harry's family?  Poor Tom Markle only made probably a few grand off his actions, they're raking in tens of million.  

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40 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

It seems to me that the hits are coming from the Sussex side, they are the ones who keep doing interviews and broadcasts airing their grievances.  

They are now, certainly, and I don't blame them.

I got a few family members [and a close friend of almost 30 years] whose bullshit I'd finally had enough of and cut them right the fuck out my and my daughters' lives. A few have since tried to circumvent it, or you know, felt unfairly judged and started up with other grievance airing. Didn't work out well for them. Hasn't for the Windsors either.

Add whatever role and expectations the monarchy occupy in British society, inherent prejudice, tradition, blar de blar. You're a member of a royal family and not only do they not go to bat for you and your new wife, they start undermining your effort to combat it yourself?

That's assbackwards shit. And in no world, unless you're some kind of long suffering passive beesh, is that going to be best path for everyone involved. 

There's also a kernel of civility policing to it that I don't respect either. That's not the way we do things around here, so we can fuck with you and yours, but you can't fight back in this particular way or that?  

[loud laugh]

Nah, fuck with my kids and I'm going for your throat. I would observe none of your rules, and I'm glad they're not either.

 

40 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

 

You don't find it a little, um, inconsistent, that they iced out her poor slob of a father for cooperating with the media and invading his daughter's privacy, when they are doing the same thing in regard to Harry's family?  Poor Tom Markle only made probably a few grand off his actions, they're raking in tens of million.  

 

Don't know much about the whole dad situation beyond he and Meghan being estranged.

Plain they couldn't with the media, but her father they could ice out. Feels like you're insinuating her dad is entitled to more than that despite poor behavior? 

 

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56 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

It also seems that Harry appears to be literally incapable of understanding that some people do not like his wife, including it appears the vast majority of his own family and his previously closest friends.  That may be a testament to his love for her, but it's a little delusional to refuse to accept that not everyone is going to feel the same.

See, this is I think the dividing point.When many heard that a high-ranking member of the BRF was set to marry a non-white, non-British non-aristocrat, their immediate thought was something along the lines of ‘this won’t go down well’ if you are left-leaning, ‘this is more PC bullshit’ if you’re right, maybe? Just guessing on the latter, but on the former it’s what almost everyone I heard it mention it here in Canada said. With the vast majority of them knowing absolutely nothing about her except what she wasn’t. 
 

So since then, whenever we hear that X royal said Y and that there were racial remarks and that she’s not liked, to those of us not expecting that, it comes off as a comment on her as a person, being so unliked. But when you have expected it since you first heard it, because of who/what they are that she is not, it comes off very differently, ie confirming something about them.

Does this mean her personality is perfect or anything close? Hardly, she might be insufferable for all we know. But the RF has had more than it’s share of insufferable people down the years and rarely circled the wagons like this. So that makes people like me think that my first gut reaction is playing out ~ as expected, because we are seeing a version of what I ~ expected to see. And that was based entirely on assumptions about the RF, knowing nothing about MM. 

So, in short (ha!), when people confirm your expectations of them, you don’t need to go looking for other explanations. Maybe something about her as a person aggravated the situation, maybe something about her would have caused conflict and rejection regardless, but when established perception of the family she’s joining caused many to expect conflict and rejection, it’s hard not to think that the reason that lead to those expectations is also largely the reason they’re coming true. 

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1 hour ago, Zorral said:

Funny too, isn't it how interest in talking about Andrew Tate here has gone poof now that we brought in Meghan to kick around instead. 

Zorral -- yes; I've noticed the same! The number of recent scandals seem to have had a high turnover rate (e.g., Kanye, Elon, Andrew, Harry, and so many others.). We'll move on to the next, and recycle as needed. It's amazing!

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I just don't get that.  Harry marrying Meghan was heralded as a uniformly positive thing.  The Windsors turning a corner, diversity, modernity, royal family now more resembles modern UK, etc. etc.  Why would the family purposely self sabotage when everyone on the planet knew that if things went badly the R word would come out, even if Harry and Meg never made such accusations?

I've always thought that the problem with Meghan wasn't her ethnicity, but her Americanism.  Forthright, direct, a 30s professional coming from a place/profession with very, very different norms than the royal family.  

Did some people snicker behind her back and think it was tacky he married an American actress?  I'm sure, after all they made fun of Kate Middleton for years because her parents were middle class before they got rich.  The best thing to happen to KM was Meghan arriving to make her look good.

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1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

I just don't get that.  Harry marrying Meghan was heralded as a uniformly positive thing.  The Windsors turning a corner, diversity, modernity, royal family now more resembles modern UK, etc. etc.

We’re very close to mutual understanding here: WHY was this seen as a significant change, and all as described above? What is the reason it was seen to be so revolutionary, and about whom is that what kind of comment?

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