Two Overkills: butchering Waymar Royce and Kevan Lannister

[sweetsunray]

Sometimes you come across a parallel that is an absolute gem, that went over our heads for years and years. But once you see it, you can barely comprehend you never noticed it before, as glaringly obvious it is once seen. For me it's the parallel that almost confirms what I've been trying to mount evidence for with Plutonian Others; Swords, Foxes and Beauty; and lately in my Night's King essay series, particularly What use is a Night's King and from Sandkings to Nightqueens.

I've incorporated the discovered parallel in the last mentioned essay, and it's a very recent discovery (over a week ago). But it is such a marvelous gem that George set up that I just wish to share it as a highlight.

So, I came across a rather on the nose hint that indeed the Others' are led by a "spider". It can be found in the last three paragraphs of the epilogue of aDwD: the murder of Kevan Lannister by Lord Varys' little birds.

Quote

"I am sorry." Varys wrung his hands. "You are suffering, I know, yet here I stand going on like some silly old woman. Time to make an end to it." The eunuch pursed his lips and gave a little whistle.
Ser Kevan was cold as ice, and every labored breath sent a fresh stab of pain through him. He glimpsed movement, heard the soft scuffling sound of slippered feet on stone. A child emerged from a pool of darkness, a pale boy in a ragged robe, no more than nine or ten. Another rose up behind the Grand Maester's chair. The girl who had opened the door for him was there as well. They were all around him, half a dozen of them, white-faced children with dark eyes, boys and girls together.
And in their hands, the daggers. (aDwD, Epilogue)

 

This final scene of the epilogue of aDwD mirrors the infamous slaughter scene of Waymar Royce by the Others in aGoT. While Alexis-rose-something makes a good point in Varys and Why he Serves the Realm by comparing Pycelle's and Kevan's murder to that of Aegon and Rhaenys, Kevan's murder itself also mirrors that of Waymar Royce by the Others in aGoT's prologue.

Quote

The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given. Swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. It was cold butchery. (aGoT, Prologue)

 

Will describes the Others that surround Waymar as watchers and Varys's little birds who kill Kevan are his spies. There are in total six Others butchering Royce together, while Kevan is murdered by half a dozen (aka six) white-faced children. In aGoT's prologue they move together "as if a signal was given", and in aDwD's epilogue Varys gives the signal to his white-faced children. In other words, Lord Varys stands in for the one who signaled the Others to finish off Waymar.

Both killings also have overkill in common. Once Waymar Royce had a swordpoint sticking through his eye, he was certain to die. There was no need to butcher him with a total of 6 Others. But they butchered him and his cloak. It is the same thing for Kevan. The arrow had struck Kevan in the chest. Varys could have waited patiently until Kevan died. More, the arrow was the perfect way for him to die, as it sets up Tyrion as the killer for a paranoid Cersei. But no, Varys had Kevan butchered by 6 children with their daggers on top of that, and that certainly was no mercy killing. This overkill is because Varys got personal satisfaction out of it. Even if Varys admits that Kevan is not a bad person, the butchery was personal vendetta. 

Quote

The eunuch set the crossbow down. "Ser Kevan. Forgive me if you can. I bear you no ill will. This was not done from malice. It was for the realm. For the children." (aDwD, Epilogue)

No, that arrow was not out of ill or malice, but the butchery that comes after?

And of course there is the side thought that surely Varys would have preferred to do this to Tywin Lannister, instead of Kevan, since Aegon/Pisswater Prince and little Rhaenys were murdered on Tywin's order. And thus the overkill of Waymar Royce signifies the Others believed him to be someone else (a Stark) or wished him to be someone else. (see also Joe Magician's The Killing of the Wrong Ranger on Youtube)

Now, it is quite interesting that in this parallel we see Varys giving the signal. What is Varys's nickname? The Spider. And not just any spider, but the King's Spider! (While the corpse queen would have been the Night's King glamored spider) In the conversation between Illyrio and Varys beneath the Red Keep that Arya eavesdrops in aGoT, Illyrio claims Varys to be a true sorcerer. So, now we have a sorcerer spider. And we should also remember that Varys is an effeminate eunuch. More, in Kevan's murder scene Varys refers to himself as some silly old woman. When we complete these pieces together, we end up with Varys standing in for a very old, crazy (aka silly) sorceress spider of the Night's King, the corpse queen, and it is implied that the Others are her children.

You might argue that the Others do have a language and can speak. Absolutely, but in the particular description of cold butchery of Waymar Royce, the Others are deadly silent, as silent as children without tongues.

And of course, Varys's children have dark eyes instead of blue ones. If George had given them blue eyes, the analogy between both scenes would never have been overlooked for over a decade. Instead George wrote a marvelous gem hidden behind misdirection. Firstly, readers remember Kevan as being murdered by the arrow fired into his chest by Varys, while he is instead slaughtered by Varys's spy children with daggers. Secondly, they analyze this scene to determine whether Aegon is fake or not. Thirdly, the winter and coldness of this scene is written off as showcasing that winter has finally come.

To remove any doubt that George very much wanted to evoke a scene of the Others, I point to Kevan feeling cold as ice and how painful it is to breathe. Sure, Kevan hurts because of the bolt in his chest, but the description of painful breathing together with being ice cold circles back to Val's statement to Jon when she leaves Castle Black in search of Tormund.

Quote

"Cold?" Val laughed lightly. "No. When it is cold it will hurt to breathe. When the Others come …" (aDwD, Jon VIII)

 

GRRM already forewarns us that Kevan is about to enter the past and world of the Others, after leaving Cersei and before arriving at Pycelle's.

Quote

The stars shone cold and distant. As Ser Kevan made his way across the inner ward, the castle seemed an alien place, where every keep and tower had grown icy teeth, and all familiar paths had vanished beneath a white blanket. Once an icicle long as a spear fell to shatter by his feet. Autumn in King's Landing, he brooded. What must it be like up on the Wall? The door was opened by a serving girl [who ends up murdering him]. (aDwD, Epilogue)

 

While Kevan walks through this alien place with icy teeth and icicle spears, he thinks of the Wall where a murderous girl opens the door. The latter evokes the corpse queen once more (Black Gate), while the icicle spear and alien place with icy teeth evokes the Heart of Winter.

Quote

Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid. (aGoT, Bran III)

 

The spikes with impaled bones that Bran sees at the Heart of Winter declare that location to be the corpse queen's throne.

Spoiler

“The bleeding star bespoke the end,” he said to Aeron. “These are the last days, when the world shall be broken and remade. A new god shall be born from the graves and charnel pits.” [...] Now it was metal underneath the Crow’s Eye: a great, tall, twisted seat of razor sharp iron, barbs and blades and broken swords, all dripping blood. Impaled upon the longer spikes were the bodies of the gods. (tWoW, The Forsaken)

 

When George mentions the cold and distant stars in combination with the Heart of Winter, he even hints at the corpse queen's origin - a Lovecraftian outer goddess. You can interprete this as you wish: either George admits here that his concept of the spider goddess is inspired by Lovecraft's mythos, or that he is trying to add his spider goddess to the Lovecraft mythos, or both are true.

 

Edited January 7 by sweetsunray

[Corvo the Crow]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Sometimes you come across a parallel that is an absolute gem, that went over our heads for years and years. But once you see it, you can barely comprehend you never noticed it before, as glaringly obvious it is once seen. For me it's the parallel that almost confirms what I've been trying to mount evidence for with Plutonian Others; Swords, Foxes and Beauty; and lately in my Night's King essay series, particularly What use is a Night's King and from Sandkings to Nightqueens.

I've incorporated the discovered parallel in the last mentioned essay, and it's a very recent discovery (over a week ago). But it is such a marvelous gem that George set up that I just wish to share it as a highlight.

So, I came across a rather on the nose hint that indeed the Others' are led by a "spider". It can be found in the last three paragraphs of the epilogue of aDwD: the murder of Kevan Lannister by Lord Varys' little birds.

 

This final scene of the epilogue of aDwD mirrors the infamous slaughter scene of Waymar Royce by the Others in aGoT. While Alexis-rose-something makes a good point in Varys and Why he Serves the Realm by comparing Pycelle's and Kevan's murder to that of Aegon and Rhaenys, Kevan's murder itself also mirrors that of Waymar Royce by the Others in aGoT's prologue.

 

Will describes the Others that surround Waymar as watchers and Varys's little birds who kill Kevan are his spies. There are in total six Others butchering Royce together, while Kevan is murdered by half a dozen (aka six) white-faced children. In aGoT's prologue they move together "as if a signal was given", and in aDwD's epilogue Varys gives the signal to his white-faced children. In other words, Lord Varys stands in for the one who signaled the Others to finish off Waymar.

Both killings also have overkill in common. Once Waymar Royce had a swordpoint sticking through his eye, he was certain to die. There was no need to butcher him with a total of 6 Others. But they butchered him and his cloak. It is the same thing for Kevan. The arrow had struck Kevan in the chest. Varys could have waited patiently until Kevan died. More, the arrow was the perfect way for him to die, as it sets up Tyrion as the killer for a paranoid Cersei. But no, Varys had Kevan butchered by 6 children with their daggers on top of that, and that certainly was no mercy killing. This overkill is because Varys got personal satisfaction out of it. Even if Varys admits that Kevan is not a bad person, the butchery was personal vendetta. 

No, that arrow was not out of ill or malice, but the butchery that comes after?

And of course there is the side thought that surely Varys would have preferred to do this to Tywin Lannister, instead of Kevan, since Aegon/Pisswater Prince and little Rhaenys were murdered on Tywin's order. And thus the overkill of Waymar Royce signifies the Others believed him to be someone else (a Stark) or wished him to be someone else. (see also Joe Magician's The Killing of the Wrong Ranger on Youtube)

Now, it is quite interesting that in this parallel we see Varys giving the signal. What is Varys's nickname? The Spider. And not just any spider, but the King's Spider! (While the corpse queen would have been the Night's King glamored spider) In the conversation between Illyrio and Varys beneath the Red Keep that Arya eavesdrops in aGoT, Illyrio claims Varys to be a true sorcerer. So, now we have a sorcerer spider. And we should also remember that Varys is an effeminate eunuch. More, in Kevan's murder scene Varys refers to himself as some silly old woman. When we complete these pieces together, we end up with Varys standing in for a very old, crazy (aka silly) sorceress spider of the Night's King, the corpse queen, and it is implied that the Others are her children.

You might argue that the Others do have a language and can speak. Absolutely, but in the particular description of cold butchery of Waymar Royce, the Others are deadly silent, as silent as children without tongues.

And of course, Varys's children have dark eyes instead of blue ones. If George had given them blue eyes, the analogy between both scenes would never have been overlooked for over a decade. Instead George wrote a marvelous gem hidden behind misdirection. Firstly, readers remember Kevan as being murdered by the arrow fired into his chest by Varys, while he is instead slaughtered by Varys's spy children with daggers. Secondly, they analyze this scene to determine whether Aegon is fake or not. Thirdly, the winter and coldness of this scene is written off as showcasing that winter has finally come.

To remove any doubt that George very much wanted to evoke a scene of the Others, I point to Kevan feeling cold as ice and how painful it is to breathe. Sure, Kevan hurts because of the bolt in his chest, but the description of painful breathing together with being ice cold circles back to Val's statement to Jon when she leaves Castle Black in search of Tormund.

 

GRRM already forewarns us that Kevan is about to enter the past and world of the Others, after leaving Cersei and before arriving at Pycelle's.

 

While Kevan walks through this alien place with icy teeth and icicle spears, he thinks of the Wall where a murderous girl opens the door. The latter evokes the corpse queen once more (Black Gate), while the icicle spear and alien place with icy teeth evokes the Heart of Winter.

 

The spikes with impaled bones that Bran sees at the Heart of Winter declare that location to be the corpse queen's throne.

  Reveal hidden contents

“The bleeding star bespoke the end,” he said to Aeron. “These are the last days, when the world shall be broken and remade. A new god shall be born from the graves and charnel pits.” [...] Now it was metal underneath the Crow’s Eye: a great, tall, twisted seat of razor sharp iron, barbs and blades and broken swords, all dripping blood. Impaled upon the longer spikes were the bodies of the gods. (tWoW, The Forsaken)

 

When George mentions the cold and distant stars in combination with the Heart of Winter, he even hints at the corpse queen's origin - a Lovecraftian outer goddess. You can interprete this as you wish: either George admits here that his concept of the spider goddess is inspired by Lovecraft's mythos, or that he is trying to add his spider goddess to the Lovecraft mythos, or both are true.

 

Great observation there! Others and Varys are one of the few(only?) things that are associated with spiders, that alone should’ve at least raised suspicion as early as the first book and raised the alarm after this scene.
We should all feel like Jon.

[Nadden]

On 1/6/2023 at 5:56 PM, sweetsunray said:

describes the Others that surround Waymar as watchers and Varys's little birds who kill Kevan are his spies. There are in total six Others butchering Royce together, while Kevan is murdered by half a dozen (aka six) white-faced children. In aGoT's prologue they move together "as if a signal was given", and in aDwD's epilogue Varys gives the signal to his white-faced children. In other words, Lord Varys stands in for the one who signaled the Others to finish off Waymar.

I think you are absolutely correct about the two scenes being parallel. However, I have a slightly different take on Waymar’s scene. You mention Vary’s little birds as children and compare them to the watchers in the Prologue, AGOT. 
 

Will, the POVin the AGOT Prologue, thinks and compares the watchers to the first one he saw. 
 

Quote

They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them … four … five … Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them, never heard them. Will had to call out. It was his duty. And his death, if he did. He shivered, and hugged the tree, and kept the silence.(AGOT,Prologue)

The first watcher Will saw was the “far-eyes” in the ironwood tree. Like you, for a long time,  I had assumed Will was comparing them to the white shadow but the white shadow in Waymar’s scene is different than the watchers. And the the watchers and the white shadow are different than the pale shapes. 
 

Quote

"There's one woman up an ironwood, half-hid in the branches. A far-eyes." He smiled thinly. "I took care she never saw me. When I got closer, I saw that she wasn't moving neither." Despite himself, he shivered.(AGOT, Prologue)

The watchers, like Waymar, have faces reflective of the moonlight like your white-faced children and wear delicate armor that camouflage them in the wood like your children in ragged robes.

Quote

Behind him, to right, to left, all around him, the watchers stood patient, faceless, silent, the shifting patterns of their delicate armor making them all but invisible in the wood. Yet they made no move to interfere.(AGOT, Prologue)

This idea of the “far-eyes” and the watchers seems to be confirmed in this next passage as the words come together again in this paragraph. “Far-eyes” is interesting in reverse.  Note that Will’s eyes are closed and the scene is far below him. Before the Far-eyes was above him as he saw her.

Quote

The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given. Swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. It was cold butchery. The pale blades sliced through ringmail as if it were silk. Will closed his eyes. Far beneath him, he heard their voices and laughter sharp as icicles.

 

The main point I’m trying to make hear is that the watchers are the Cotf.

The Cotf are woman and wear delicate armor made of leaves and tree bark that makes them invisible in the wood.

Your find helps to confirm this for me. Thx

 

[Corvo the Crow]

11 minutes ago, Nadden said:

The main point I’m trying to make hear is that the watchers are the Cotf.

 

How tall do children grow?

[sweetsunray]

@Nadden

The watchers referred to in the Waymar scene is indicating the 5 other Others that surrounded the duel. They are explicitly said to move in.

Varys' little birds are children and in some scenes or plot, they can serve as stand-in cotf. But in the case of Kevan's murder, the "white faced" children stand-in for the Others, because the Others are the children of the empress ice spider.

And yes the trees and the greenseers are watching the butchery: the trees tried to take the sword and cloak that made him the mark of the Others, and trying to glue Will to the tree so he won't come down and get killed. 

Edited March 6 by sweetsunray

[Nadden]

27 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

How tall do children grow?

I’m not sure I understand the point of the question? 
 

The Giants called him little squirrel people. But they are smaller than humans.
 

Other than being twins to the first, we get no other indication of the height of the watchers.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 minute ago, Nadden said:

I’m not sure I understand the point of the question? 
 

The Giants called him little squirrel people. But they are smaller than humans.
 

Other than being twins to the first, we get no other indication of the height of the watchers.

Exactly. If they are children, why no note of their stature?

Edited March 6 by Corvo the Crow

[sweetsunray]

The Others are taller than humans.

[Nadden]

3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

The watchers referred to in the Waymar scene is indicating the 5 other Others that surrounded the duel. They are explicitly said to move in.

The five watchers in the prologue, I believe are twins to the far eyes and not the white shadow or the Other that you are referring to. And yes they are the ones moving in:)

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, Nadden said:

The five watchers in the prologue, I believe are twins to the far eyes and not the white shadow or the Other that you are referring to. And yes they are the ones moving in:)

a far-eyes who's gone?

The 5 look identical to the first one who dueled with Waymar.

CotF don't look identical btw.

Edited March 6 by sweetsunray

[Nadden]

2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Exactly. If they are children, why no note of their stature?

I believe Martin is purposely being vague. Just like he is with the “pale shapes” and “white shadow”.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 minute ago, Nadden said:

I believe Martin is purposely being vague. Just like he is with the “pale shapes” and “white shadow”.

Purposefuly being vague? Being vague is one thing, not even giving the vaguest of information is an entirely different thing.

[Nadden]

3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

a far-eyes who's gone?

Yes, the far-eyes that Will saw in the ironwood. That’s who he’s comparing them to:)

[sweetsunray]

2 minutes ago, Nadden said:

Yes, the far-eyes that Will saw in the ironwood. That’s who he’s comparing them to:)

No he isn't.

That was a rhetorical question: the far eyes is gone. So he isn't saying the 5 others are twins to someone who isn't even in the scene anymore... Context matters.

And you're also mixing up a human far eyes who's an early parallel allusion to greenseers (human and cotf) watching via trees, with actual cotf.

[Nadden]

2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Purposefuly being vague? Being vague is one thing, not even giving the vaguest of information is an entirely different thing.

Watchers and far-eyes seems to be a good comparison.

Then patient, faceless, and silent also seems to compare well with the woman who wasn’t moving, half-hid in the branches.

And the delicate armor seems to fit with Cotf garb:)

[Corvo the Crow]

Just now, Nadden said:

And the delicate armor seems to fit with Cotf garb:)

Use of icy blades too? 

[Nadden]

3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

No he isn't

Even the parallel that you made seems to support this idea. But I get it. We are not seeing this the same. Ok:)

[sweetsunray]

Just now, Nadden said:

Watchers and far-eyes seems to be a good comparison.

Out of context, yes. But the context is that the far-eyes is not in the scene anymore and a wildling human.

Just now, Nadden said:

And the delicate armor seems to fit with Cotf garb:)

No it doesn't. It's reflective armor, not made of leaves and branches.

[Nadden]

2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Use of icy blades too? 

It doesn’t say icy. It says “pale”. 
 

Pale like moonlight:) It’s ok if we don’t agree.

[Corvo the Crow]

2 minutes ago, Nadden said:

It doesn’t say icy. It says “pale”. 
 

Pale like moonlight:) It’s ok if we don’t agree.

They were using white obsidian?