Criston Cole

[Eternally_Theirs]

I heard that this forum has no Criston threads, so I am starting one. Share your thoughts here.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

On 1/7/2023 at 12:14 PM, Eternally_His said:

I heard that this forum has no Criston threads, so I am starting one. Share your thoughts here.

Fabian Frankel played one of the lovers of Emilia Clarke's character in Last Christmas, which was apparently his debut role. I guess Ser Criston really loves Targaryen princesses.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

I felt bad for him ever up until the first time skip. After that, he was a dickhole.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

Also, Criston beating Joffrey to death in the middle of a crowd of nobles made literally no sense, and the fact he got away with it and have no idea how is so stupid. 

[Eternally_Theirs]

Well, honestly, I don't get why he is so hated. It seems that people's intelligence and willingness to look into character in-depth took a nosedive lately, of which Criston is the best example. People before would have called him a complex character while theorizing what made him the way he is now. People now merely call him 'a dickhead' for turning against Rhaenyra with no thoughts regarding how or why.

It's sad, but true.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

Mainly wasted potential.

[Eternally_Theirs]

Also, remember my old thread, Marrying for love in Westeros? Well, I am reviving it for this, by saying that the laws against marrying for love bit him in his backside like a shark with sharp teeth.

[Annara Snow]

He's a great subversion of the white knight / courly love trope.

From a relatively lowborn person trying to prove himself as a great knight, he is obsessed with his "honor" and has a major Madonna/whore complex. He went from worshipping Rhaenyra to hating her because she made him question his entire identity, and then he started worshipping Alicent as his savior and almost like a religious figure (I don't think he really sees every woman as the 'image of the Mother', but I'm sure he does see Alicent that way). 

But that also makes him act violent - sometimes in defense of the queen he adores (as when he killed Beesbury), sometimes because he is losing his mind and projecting his shame on others - and bitter and vengeful. Rhaenyra didn't objectively do anything that awful to him, and was pretty nice about it when she rejected his (really unreasonable) marriage proposal).

 

[Annara Snow]

On 1/10/2023 at 6:05 AM, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

Also, Criston beating Joffrey to death in the middle of a crowd of nobles made literally no sense, and the fact he got away with it and have no idea how is so stupid. 

I wish they had shown it, but I don't have issues believing hw got away with it:

1) Alicent no doubt vouched for him and insisted he not only not be sacked, but was made her sworn shield,

2) No one saw exactly how or why the fight started, and Joffrey did have a dagger he pulled at one point, so Criston and Alicent could have spun some BS tale that Joffrey was threatening to do something against the princess or whatever.

3) Laenor probably didn't insist on punishment, in spite of his feelings, because he was aware how it would look like, and that it would cause even more gossip about him and Joffrey. And no doubt Corlys and Rhaenys made that clear to him too.

4) Rhaenyra probably didn't say anything. because she didn't want to risk her relationship with Criston be exposed.

5) Viserys didn't really care. He always chooses Rhaenyra over Alicent or his children with Alicent, and that's when Alicent has no chance - but when it's Alicent vs... some dead guy he doesn't know, and no one important to him will really insist his death be punished, eh. He'll permit Alicent to have her new pet.

[Raksha 2014]

On 1/14/2023 at 5:53 PM, Eternally_Theirs said:

Also, remember my old thread, Marrying for love in Westeros? Well, I am reviving it for this, by saying that the laws against marrying for love bit him in his backside like a shark with sharp teeth.

 

Criston may have been in love with Rhaenyra; but Rhaenyra definitely wasn't in love with Criston.  She liked him; perhaps she might have fallen in love with him in time, but she was attracted to him sexually, just not passionately enough to defy her father and risk her status as a princess and the heiress to the Iron Throne to openly claim him.

[The Bard of Banefort]

I thought they could have done better with Criston. In the books, there’s something genuinely threatening about this guy—he’s hellbent on destroying Rhaenyra’s life in a very cold, brutish, Roose Bolton-like way. Here he’s just this nasally (though not as nasally as Daemon) dope who’s still butthurt over a teenage girl he boned one time nearly twenty years ago. I don’t find him intimidating, or suave, or anything like that. He’s just a hot guy without much personality. I don’t think the writing or the acting was particularly strong for him.

Also, they may have already ruined his death by downplaying the kingmaker role. I don’t see why other people would think of him as one on the show.

Edited February 6, 2023 by The Bard of Banefort

[Lord Varys]

On 2/6/2023 at 7:35 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

I thought they could have done better with Criston. In the books, there’s something genuinely threatening about this guy—he’s hellbent on destroying Rhaenyra’s life in a very cold, brutish, Roose Bolton-like way.

I think that's more projection on your part. The one moment in the book where Criston talks about Rhaenyra is during the Green Council scene. Later all he does is propping up Aegon II's 'martial kingship' - something the show could do as well once Otto is sacked.

While his ultimate motivation there might very well be to destroy Rhaenyra that's by no means certain ... once they have crowned Aegon II they cannot double back on that. They have to see it through.

On 2/6/2023 at 7:35 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Here he’s just this nasally (though not as nasally as Daemon) dope who’s still butthurt over a teenage girl he boned one time nearly twenty years ago. I don’t find him intimidating, or suave, or anything like that. He’s just a hot guy without much personality. I don’t think the writing or the acting was particularly strong for him.

I think part of the problem is that they kept Westerling as Lord Commander and didn't have Criston Cole acquire an actual position of power and influence - and show him actually influence policy. If he had sat on the council from episode 6 onwards - or perhaps even before Rhaenyra's wedding as he would have in the book - they could have established him (also) as a keen political mind.

But then - we have that for Larys Strong who also doesn't sit on the council yet, so this is another time problem. In addition to the writers not really doing much with him after the time jump.

On 2/6/2023 at 7:35 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Also, they may have already ruined his death by downplaying the kingmaker role. I don’t see why other people would think of him as one on the show.

He just dies the death of a random traitor in the book. There is no heroism there, so it fits.

On 1/15/2023 at 1:54 AM, Annara Snow said:

I wish they had shown it, but I don't have issues believing hw got away with it:

Most of those speculations wouldn't fly in a sane and realistic society:

On 1/15/2023 at 1:54 AM, Annara Snow said:

1) Alicent no doubt vouched for him and insisted he not only not be sacked, but was made her sworn shield,

Alicent has no real power at court and no actual information on what transpired. Her word would mean little and less, whilst Cole's commoner background would also speak against him. He showed there that he was unworthy of the white cloak.

On 1/15/2023 at 1:54 AM, Annara Snow said:

2) No one saw exactly how or why the fight started, and Joffrey did have a dagger he pulled at one point, so Criston and Alicent could have spun some BS tale that Joffrey was threatening to do something against the princess or whatever.

The notion that nobody actually saw how the fight started strikes one as very unlikely - as does the notion that nobody would want to carry favor with Rhaenyra and Laenor by claiming they did (Taena Merryweather also didn't see Tyrion poisoning Joffrey yet she claimed she did). Criston Cole is a commoner with no powerful relations ... and we can assume that quite a few knights and lords attending the wedding didn't like the fact that this nobody was honored with a white cloak.

Viserys would only have believed nonsense like that if Rhaenyra and Laenor and the Velaryons would have backed something like that ... which they just wouldn't. But even if this were true - it just doesn't justify Criston running amok. Viserys would not want such a loose cannon protect himself, his wife, or his children. Even if Alicent vouched for him, Viserys could and would ignore her pleas 'for her own good' - because they could not trust a mad dog like Criston with keeping her safe.

On 1/15/2023 at 1:54 AM, Annara Snow said:

3) Laenor probably didn't insist on punishment, in spite of his feelings, because he was aware how it would look like, and that it would cause even more gossip about him and Joffrey. And no doubt Corlys and Rhaenys made that clear to him too.

And why would he care about that now? His lover was murdered and he was married to the future queen. He is beyond reproach now. Even as heir to Driftmark he could pretty much do whatever he wanted, and now even more.

On 1/15/2023 at 1:54 AM, Annara Snow said:

4) Rhaenyra probably didn't say anything. because she didn't want to risk her relationship with Criston be exposed.

LOL, why shouldn't she? Her father already believed she was sleeping around. That's why he had her drink moon tea. But you know who Rhaenyra and Laenor could see castrated and sent to the Wall (or even executed) by exposing him? Criston Cole. There is just no reason on earth why Laenor wouldn't (try) do that if he actually loved Joffrey. Which he did.

And Rhaenyra and Laenor would have had ten years to destroy Criston. If they wanted to see him dead and disgraced it would have happened. He couldn't possibly fight back against that.

On 1/15/2023 at 1:54 AM, Annara Snow said:

5) Viserys didn't really care. He always chooses Rhaenyra over Alicent or his children with Alicent, and that's when Alicent has no chance - but when it's Alicent vs... some dead guy he doesn't know, and no one important to him will really insist his death be punished, eh. He'll permit Alicent to have her new pet.

Even that makes little sense since the fucking guy there ruined the grand wedding Viserys wanted to throw even before it properly started. And Alicent also ruined Viserys' speech with her entrance, so chances that her word would have had much meaning to him in the aftermath of all that is not particularly high.

Rhaenyra was nearly trampled to death during to chaos that ensued if Harwin hadn't carried her to safety - the idea that she would have been of a forgiving mind afterwards is also not particularly high.

The fact remains that it was a completely stupid decision to rewrite this from 'tourney murder' to a blatant murder during a feast.

The very notion that Rhaenyra and Laenor would agree to live in castle where this fucking murderer stands around in front of the doors with a sword is ludicrous. In a tourney setting Joffrey's death was not only kind of fair - but Criston could reasonably well disguise a murder as an accidental death. That doesn't work for the scenario in the show.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I think part of the problem is that they kept Westerling as Lord Commander and didn't have Criston Cole acquire an actual position of power and influence - and show him actually influence policy.

Yeah, which is a bit puzzling. In the show, he doesn't actively persuade Aegon to go for the throne, and thus doesn't live up to his moniker of Kingmaker.

[Lord Varys]

17 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Yeah, which is a bit puzzling. In the show, he doesn't actively persuade Aegon to go for the throne, and thus doesn't live up to his moniker of Kingmaker.

Basically the moniker of Kingmaker goes back to him putting the crown of Aegon's head - which he also does in the show. And in a sense he does convince the guy to take the crown - at swordpoint.

However, the show still has plenty of time to build up Criston as a political player - for instance, by making his tenure as Hand be more important and crucial than it is in the book. For instance, they could really present Otto making one mistake after the other (aside from the Triarchy alliance thing which will only carry fruit long after Otto has been sacked - there, the show will likely go with the Sea Snake being the big enemy of the Triarchy rather than Daemon) which then means that Criston really saves Aegon's crown.

They could do that, for instance, by presenting the Black Crowlanders as real threat to Aegon's rule which Criston neutralizes with his attacks which were more unprovoked in the book.

[The Bard of Banefort]

59 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I think that's more projection on your part. The one moment in the book where Criston talks about Rhaenyra is during the Green Council scene. Later all he does is propping up Aegon II's 'martial kingship' - something the show could do as well once Otto is sacked.

While his ultimate motivation there might very well be to destroy Rhaenyra that's by no means certain ... once they have crowned Aegon II they cannot double back on that. They have to see it through.

I think part of the problem is that they kept Westerling as Lord Commander and didn't have Criston Cole acquire an actual position of power and influence - and show him actually influence policy. If he had sat on the council from episode 6 onwards - or perhaps even before Rhaenyra's wedding as he would have in the book - they could have established him (also) as a keen political mind.

But then - we have that for Larys Strong who also doesn't sit on the council yet, so this is another time problem. In addition to the writers not really doing much with him after the time jump.

He just dies the death of a random traitor in the book. There is no heroism there, so it fits.

Most of those speculations wouldn't fly in a sane and realistic society:

Alicent has no real power at court and no actual information on what transpired. Her word would mean little and less, whilst Cole's commoner background would also speak against him. He showed there that he was unworthy of the white cloak.

The notion that nobody actually saw how the fight started strikes one as very unlikely - as does the notion that nobody would want to carry favor with Rhaenyra and Laenor by claiming they did (Taena Merryweather also didn't see Tyrion poisoning Joffrey yet she claimed she did). Criston Cole is a commoner with no powerful relations ... and we can assume that quite a few knights and lords attending the wedding didn't like the fact that this nobody was honored with a white cloak.

Viserys would only have believed nonsense like that if Rhaenyra and Laenor and the Velaryons would have backed something like that ... which they just wouldn't. But even if this were true - it just doesn't justify Criston running amok. Viserys would not want such a loose cannon protect himself, his wife, or his children. Even if Alicent vouched for him, Viserys could and would ignore her pleas 'for her own good' - because they could not trust a mad dog like Criston with keeping her safe.

And why would he care about that now? His lover was murdered and he was married to the future queen. He is beyond reproach now. Even as heir to Driftmark he could pretty much do whatever he wanted, and now even more.

LOL, why shouldn't she? Her father already believed she was sleeping around. That's why he had her drink moon tea. But you know who Rhaenyra and Laenor could see castrated and sent to the Wall (or even executed) by exposing him? Criston Cole. There is just no reason on earth why Laenor wouldn't (try) do that if he actually loved Joffrey. Which he did.

And Rhaenyra and Laenor would have had ten years to destroy Criston. If they wanted to see him dead and disgraced it would have happened. He couldn't possibly fight back against that.

Even that makes little sense since the fucking guy there ruined the grand wedding Viserys wanted to throw even before it properly started. And Alicent also ruined Viserys' speech with her entrance, so chances that her word would have had much meaning to him in the aftermath of all that is not particularly high.

Rhaenyra was nearly trampled to death during to chaos that ensued if Harwin hadn't carried her to safety - the idea that she would have been of a forgiving mind afterwards is also not particularly high.

The fact remains that it was a completely stupid decision to rewrite this from 'tourney murder' to a blatant murder during a feast.

The very notion that Rhaenyra and Laenor would agree to live in castle where this fucking murderer stands around in front of the doors with a sword is ludicrous. In a tourney setting Joffrey's death was not only kind of fair - but Criston could reasonably well disguise a murder as an accidental death. That doesn't work for the scenario in the show.

Everything we know about Cole from the books indicates that he supports Aegon out of a personal vendetta against Rhaenyra. We don’t need to see him constantly talking about her to infer that. There’s nothing to indicate that he cares about male primogeniture or that he thinks Aegon would make a good king. Even in the main series, other characters know this. 
 

As for his death, we’re given what I consider to be one of the best quotes in the series: 

Quote

I’ll have no songs about how brave you died, Kingmaker. There’s tens o’ thousands dead on your account.

Maybe he’ll be known as the Kingmaker after becoming Aegon’s Hand, but right now there’s no reason for anyone to see him as anything but a lackey.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Side note: a while back I said that I thought Amanda Seyfried looked like a Targaryen (very close to how I picture Rhaenys) but that I’d only seen her in comedies and didn’t know if she had the acting chops for a role like that. After watching The Drop Out, I’d say she’s actually pretty goddamn incredible, and would make a great Targ in one of the spin-off shows.

[Lord Varys]

37 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Everything we know about Cole from the books indicates that he supports Aegon out of a personal vendetta against Rhaenyra. We don’t need to see him constantly talking about her to infer that. There’s nothing to indicate that he cares about male primogeniture or that he thinks Aegon would make a good king. Even in the main series, other characters know this.

Sure enough, that's his starting point. But him falling in with Alicent and her party indicates he also forged bonds with them and might have ended up caring for them and their rights also to a point. I don't think he ever viewed Aegon as a good king, but he may have cared for Aemond to a point - as they indicate in the show (their falling-out should be a great plot).

He could have been more of a snake in the show - helping to continue to fuel the enmity between Rhaenyra and Alicent. Although such a plot would then also have to explain or at least indicate what Criston is actually after.

37 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Maybe he’ll be known as the Kingmaker after becoming Aegon’s Hand, but right now there’s no reason for anyone to see him as anything but a lackey.

But he is also just a lackey in the books. Making him the architect of the coup would mean to rewrite the plot as given in FaB. I do think episode 9 foreshadows Criston's future prominence as a political leader both with Alicent insisting that he be the Lord Commander now as well as Criston crowning Aegon II and acting as his spokesman leading the cheers.

I don't think anyone would bother giving Criston a moniker (in book and show) if he didn't have a strong impact on policy. And the show could play up that aspect by having Criston kind of saving Aegon's ass from Otto doing nothing but letter-writing. Sure, the show should go with the Triarchy thing eventually bearing fruit (especially since the show should play up the Corlys-Triarchy enmity rather than their issues with Daemon since the show had Corlys war with the Triarchy as late as immediately before the Dance begins) but insofar as the early weeks and months of 129 AC Aegon II and his government could be in a very bad place. In the book, Criston starts unprovoked attacks on the Black Crownlanders ... whereas the shows could have them in a more active role - besieging KL, say. There could also be some smaller dragon chases and the like, with Baela and Rhaenys and Jace flying back and forth between Dragonstone and KL, emboldening the Crownlanders to take up arms against the Greens.

[Annara Snow]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I think that's more projection on your part. The one moment in the book where Criston talks about Rhaenyra is during the Green Council scene. Later all he does is propping up Aegon II's 'martial kingship' - something the show could do as well once Otto is sacked.

While his ultimate motivation there might very well be to destroy Rhaenyra that's by no means certain ... once they have crowned Aegon II they cannot double back on that. They have to see it through.

I think part of the problem is that they kept Westerling as Lord Commander and didn't have Criston Cole acquire an actual position of power and influence - and show him actually influence policy. If he had sat on the council from episode 6 onwards - or perhaps even before Rhaenyra's wedding as he would have in the book - they could have established him (also) as a keen political mind.

But then - we have that for Larys Strong who also doesn't sit on the council yet, so this is another time problem. In addition to the writers not really doing much with him after the time jump.

He just dies the death of a random traitor in the book. There is no heroism there, so it fits.

Most of those speculations wouldn't fly in a sane and realistic society:

Alicent has no real power at court and no actual information on what transpired. Her word would mean little and less, whilst Cole's commoner background would also speak against him. He showed there that he was unworthy of the white cloak.

The notion that nobody actually saw how the fight started strikes one as very unlikely - as does the notion that nobody would want to carry favor with Rhaenyra and Laenor by claiming they did (Taena Merryweather also didn't see Tyrion poisoning Joffrey yet she claimed she did). Criston Cole is a commoner with no powerful relations ... and we can assume that quite a few knights and lords attending the wedding didn't like the fact that this nobody was honored with a white cloak.

Viserys would only have believed nonsense like that if Rhaenyra and Laenor and the Velaryons would have backed something like that ... which they just wouldn't. But even if this were true - it just doesn't justify Criston running amok. Viserys would not want such a loose cannon protect himself, his wife, or his children. Even if Alicent vouched for him, Viserys could and would ignore her pleas 'for her own good' - because they could not trust a mad dog like Criston with keeping her safe.

And why would he care about that now? His lover was murdered and he was married to the future queen. He is beyond reproach now. Even as heir to Driftmark he could pretty much do whatever he wanted, and now even more.

LOL, why shouldn't she? Her father already believed she was sleeping around. That's why he had her drink moon tea. But you know who Rhaenyra and Laenor could see castrated and sent to the Wall (or even executed) by exposing him? Criston Cole. There is just no reason on earth why Laenor wouldn't (try) do that if he actually loved Joffrey. Which he did.

And Rhaenyra and Laenor would have had ten years to destroy Criston. If they wanted to see him dead and disgraced it would have happened. He couldn't possibly fight back against that.

Even that makes little sense since the fucking guy there ruined the grand wedding Viserys wanted to throw even before it properly started. And Alicent also ruined Viserys' speech with her entrance, so chances that her word would have had much meaning to him in the aftermath of all that is not particularly high.

Rhaenyra was nearly trampled to death during to chaos that ensued if Harwin hadn't carried her to safety - the idea that she would have been of a forgiving mind afterwards is also not particularly high.

The fact remains that it was a completely stupid decision to rewrite this from 'tourney murder' to a blatant murder during a feast.

The very notion that Rhaenyra and Laenor would agree to live in castle where this fucking murderer stands around in front of the doors with a sword is ludicrous. In a tourney setting Joffrey's death was not only kind of fair - but Criston could reasonably well disguise a murder as an accidental death. That doesn't work for the scenario in the show.

You cannot possibly believe some of the stuff you wrote there.

Alicent has no power in court?! Dude, she's the Queen Consort! Do you understand that?

The only person who outranks her is Viserys. He has all the power over her - but he's also usually unwilling to stir conflict, except on rare occasions when it's about something personal to him, so he puts his foot down. And I already pointed out that he'd always choose Rhaenyra vs Alicent or his kids with Alicent, but other than that, he'll allow Alicent to have what she wants to mollify her. And he had just sacked her father, so he needed to.

And guess what: Viserys doesn't care about the late Joffrey.

Also, no, no one seemed to have seen the very beginning of the fight, and certainly no one heard their conversation. It just happened all of a sudden and took everyone by surprise.

Your "Laenor is now safe", "Rhaenyra doesn't care of it comes out she slept around" arguments are blatantly in conflict with all of the facts of both book and the show. It's not the first time you claimed that, and it sounds like your wishful thinking and denial. Everything in both book and show shows that Rhaenyra cannot admit her children's true parentage or the nature of her relationship with Laenor or admit publicly that she was not a virgin before her marriage, Viserys is in active denial and threatening people left and right and even tearing out their tongues in the book, Rhaenyra is lying, gaslighting and threatening people left and right. None of them are chill about it or ready to openly admit that Rhaenyra slept with anyone other than husband. Her reputation would be ruined in the patriarchal sexist society they live in, and this matters.

Do I even need to point out that revealing Criston's tryst with Rhaenyra in order to get him castrated and/or sent to the Wall would also ruin Rhaenyra's reputation?

We may know less about Laenor's and Corlys's attitude in the book, but in the show, Corlys has a "it's a phase" attitude and doesn't accept his son's sexuality, while Laenor feels bad about not fulfilling his duties as a husband.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Annara Snow said:

You cannot possibly believe some of the stuff you wrote there.

Alicent has no power in court?! Dude, she's the Queen Consort! Do you understand that?

LOL, sure, she outranks everybody else ... but she is little more than Viserys' little housewife and fuck bunny at this point. Before episode 5 she has made no attempt to build up her own party nor a coterie of followers and favorites. She is so isolated and alone that even the creep Larys Strong can take advantage of her, putting his clubfoot on her neck even if it looks as if it is the other way around.

It is also made clear - in episode 4 - that Alicent and Otto are both outsiders within the Targaryen family.

If Alicent actually took up to defend the mad dog Criston Cole she would only damage herself and her standing with the king. It is like Cersei defending Gregor's attempted murder of Loras Tyrell.

1 minute ago, Annara Snow said:

And guess what: Viserys doesn't care about the late Joffrey.

And what about the mess this whole thing made of the grand royal wedding? What about Rhaenyra being nearly trampled to death? How would Viserys react if Rhaenyra was pissed about everything because it was her wedding and now Laenor is very distraught? Do you think he wouldn't care about that, either?

1 minute ago, Annara Snow said:

Also, no, no one seemed to have seen the very beginning of the fight, and certainly no one heard their conversation. It just happened all of a sudden and took everyone by surprise.

LOL, no, we don't know who saw anything there. We have the camera show that the people in charge didn't see - but you know what? The hall was full of people and if there was an investigation/trial/talk about things later on people would have seen things - or claimed to have seen things for their own reasons (like Taena did).

1 minute ago, Annara Snow said:

Your "Laenor is now safe", "Rhaenyra doesn't care of it comes out she slept around" arguments are blatantly in conflict with all of the facts of both book and the show. It's not the first time you claimed that, and it sounds like your wishful thinking and denial. Everything in both book and show shows that Rhaenyra cannot admit her children's true parentage or the nature of her relationship with Laenor or admit publicly that she was not a virgin before her marriage, Viserys is in active denial and threatening people left and right and even tearing out their tongues in the book, Rhaenyra is lying, gaslighting and threatening people left and right. None of them are chill about it or ready to openly admit that Rhaenyra slept with anyone other than husband. Her reputation would be ruined in the patriarchal sexist society they live in, and this matters.

Rhaenyra doesn't have to publicly admit to anything, she can just tell her father, the king, privately, that Criston Cole has to go (giving a reason or not) ... and then it would happen. Just as it did when she demanded that Otto had to go.

People already kind of know Rhaenyra slept around before her marriage - Laenor and the Velaryons didn't care.

Rhaenyra admitting/claiming that Criston Cole seduced or raped her would destroy him, not her. Because he is nothing, unlike her.

Also, you don't seem to remember the books - there people are either very aware or kind of aware that Rhaenyra was slut as early 111 AC. If you go by Mushroom's account a lot of people knew what was going on there. It didn't tarnish her standing or status.

Once she is a married woman things are different - but pre-marital sluts are just sluts, not adulterers. Just as widows like Cersei can sleep around. It is common vice of widows, as the High Septon puts it.

1 minute ago, Annara Snow said:

Do I even need to point out that revealing Criston's tryst with Rhaenyra in order to get him castrated and/or sent to the Wall would also ruin Rhaenyra's reputation?

With whom? Do you think they would actually have to make this public? Don't you think the king could not just do with a KG as he pleases? They are sworn to obey, are they not?

Or do you think Rhaenyra would have to tell the truth there? What about simply claiming that Criston assaulted her? Tried to seduce or rape her?

And who would care about her reputation now that she is married to Laenor Velaryon? They cannot possibly change the succession now without further humiliating the Velaryons. Rhaenyra is pretty much untouchable before her sons are born. And the Criston Cole issue would have been settled long before the birth of Jacaerys.

1 minute ago, Annara Snow said:

We may know less about Laenor's and Corlys's attitude in the book, but in the show, Corlys has a "it's a phase" attitude and doesn't accept his son's sexuality, while Laenor feels bad about not fulfilling his duties as a husband.

This doesn't change the fact that Laenor loved Joffrey - and who cares about the sexuality/relationship there? Even if Joffrey was but merely Laenor's close friend and confidant - his favorite, as he is described in the book - then this alone would warrant Laenor (and Rhaenyra) to demand justice and vengeance for his murder. I certainly would if some lowborn scum murdered my best friend. And if I were a fucking Velaryon dragonrider I'd have that man's head on a plate, with or without the weak-willed king's permission.

Criston's hypothetical claim that Joffrey wanted to harm a member of the royal family would mean literally nothing if dismissed/not believed by actual members of the royal family.

I mean - are you seriously trying to tell me that your bodyguard can brutally murder a close friend of your daughter's husband and you then just continue to employ that guy? That's a completely ludicrous scenario.

As is the notion that Rhaenys and Corlys would actually let the alleged murder of their son slide. That's equally abysmal writing. If they believed that, they would see Rhaenyra/Daemon punished for their crime and/or simply join team Green.

And this entire scene is abysmal writing in the show because people have now to invent explanations as to how and why this actually 'works' or 'makes sense' when that would be the fucking job of the writers themselves.

If they told us that Viserys, for some reason, thought that Joffrey wanted to kill someone then, perhaps, this thing could make sense. But even that would then have consequences since there is just no chance that Rhaenyra and Laenor would stand for this.

And the notion that Laenor would allow the murderer of his own lover to train his sons at arms is ludicrous, too. To him and Rhaenyra the man would be a murderer now, a man who might very well one day kill one of their children as he killed Joffrey at their wedding.

One must also consider a very simple fact:

Would Criston Cole as presented in the show actually lie about why he murdered Joffrey Lonmouth? He freely admitted to Alicent that he had had sex with Rhaenyra, so would he actually lie about what transpired when questioned about the thing by his king, the one he swore his life and honor to?

I don't think highly of the guy, but the show's take on the man doesn't indicate he would ever lie to wiggle out of something. He would tell the truth.

[Annara Snow]

You really are in denial and constantly repeating your wishful thinking ideas like "Rhaenyra is untouchable! No one cares about her reputation! Laenor is untouchable!" LMAO I love the Magically Disappearing Patriarchy! With that and how powerless Alicent and Otto are, one wonders how the Dance ever happened! But I guess the patriarchy just magically appears when it has to start and when Rhaenyra loses her untouchability, and then disappears again!

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As is the notion that Rhaenys and Corlys would actually let the alleged murder of their son slide. That's equally abysmal writing.

Blame GRRM.