Criston Cole

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Basically the moniker of Kingmaker goes back to him putting the crown of Aegon's head - which he also does in the show.

Wasn't he the one who did most of the persuading in F&B? In the show, a lot of that was done by other characters. 

Particularly:

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According to the septon, Criston told the prince that he and his siblings would be killed by Rhaenyra if he did not claim the Iron Throne.

In the show, this was said by Otto to Alicent, who later repeats it to Aegon. I guess the showrunners wanted to give Alicent more agency.

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Wasn't he the one who did most of the persuading in F&B? In the show, a lot of that was done by other characters. 

Particularly:

In the show, this was said by Otto to Alicent, who later repeats it to Aegon. I guess the showrunners wanted to give Alicent more agency.

In any case, this is just from one record of events - Eustace's, I think - and nobody ever said that this was what earned Criston his moniker.

But the show has Criston and Aemond track Aegon down - it would have been better if they had used arguments there, of course, but they still kind of do the same thing.

[Lord Varys]

21 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

You really are in denial and constantly repeating your wishful thinking ideas like "Rhaenyra is untouchable! No one cares about her reputation! Laenor is untouchable!" LMAO I love the Magically Disappearing Patriarchy! With that and how powerless Alicent and Otto are, one wonders how the Dance ever happened! But I guess the patriarchy just magically appears when it has to start and when Rhaenyra loses her untouchability, and then disappears again!

also -

Blame GRRM.

I'm sorry, but you are wrong. In the book it is crystal clear that only the nutcase Mushroom considers the possibility that Daemon arranged the murder of Laenor through Qarl. It is an outlandish theory, something the Velaryons apparently never considered. (You can criticize George's writing there, pointing out that if Daemon was indeed the man arranging the murder - which we don't know - the Velaryons are morons for not suspecting anything, subsequently even supporting Rhaenyra and Daemon in their silly war. But George at least has the grace to not cause narrative problems by claiming the Velaryons suspected Daemon's involvement in their son's death.)

And if they don't consider that Daemon had their son murdered, they also have no reason to dislike him or Rhaenyra later on.

The show completely fucks this up by having not only Rhaenyra/Daemon randomly announce they would be suspected of having murdered Laenor and not taking any precaution against that by, you know, having Laenor write a letter to his parents explaining what they did so that Rhaenys/Corlys actually randomly believe this stuff years (!) after the fact, indicating that neither Rhaenyra/Daemon nor Baela/Rhaena made any attempts to convince them of the contrary. Not to mention how silly it is that the Greens never actually use this alleged murder of Laenor as ammunition against Rhaenyra/Daemon. It could have made sense if Otto/Alicent had gotten Vaemond to agree to their plans with the argument that Rhaenyra/Daemon murdered Laenor.

Your own take on how sleeping around prior to marriage destroys royal women also doesn't seem to be very accurate. Of course, it tarnishes a woman's reputation ... but the 'slut' Elaena Targaryen, who gave birth to two bastards after she got out of the Maidenvault, later ended up marrying three men and rose to prominence and power at the court of Daeron II. Apparently men were still accepting her as wife, presumably because she was a royal princess. Even lesser noblewomen aren't completely ruined by something like that, as Walder Frey's sister shows - or Lysa Tully.

You try to convince us here that Rhaenyra Targaryen - a royal princess, a dragonrider, and the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne - who was just married to another dragonrider who was once a rival claimant to her own father and from a family the king wanted to get back into the fold by marrying Rhaenyra to Laenor would get into trouble if she were to accuse some lowborn nobody of a Kingsguard of having tried to sleep with her. That just doesn't make much sense.

Laenor and Joffrey already knew that Rhaenyra was sleeping around before the marriage - and they didn't care, just as Rhaenyra didn't care about Joffrey. So they wouldn't make a fuzz. And Viserys actually believed that his daughter was sleeping around despite her own claims or else he would have never have commanded her to drink moon tea. So there is really no chance that Rhaenyra would have been in trouble if she accused Criston after her wedding.

[Annara Snow]

The person who'd stand most to gain from Laenor's death rumored to have arranged his murder: "outlandish theory". Sure. LMAO

Daena the Defiant later openly had a bastard and it was used against her as a reason (or an excuse) to pass her over for the throne.

Rhaenyra is not trying to get married, she's trying to become the first ruling Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.

[Lord Varys]

21 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

The person who'd stand most to gain from Laenor's death rumored to have arranged his murder: "outlandish theory". Sure. LMAO

Actually, I'm laughing my ass off right now, since you actually don't seem to know or care about the original material. It is only Mushroom who suggests that Daemon was involved - decades after the fact. Nobody in FaB makes the claim the Velaryons suspected that Daemon and/or Rhaenyra was involved in Laenor's death. The utter show nonsense of Rhaenyra assuming they would be suspected of murder BEFORE ANYTHING HAPPENS (they could arrange a fake death that doesn't even suggest murder!) as well as Rhaenys/Corlys assuming Daemon/Rhaenyra were to blame without us learning how they reached that conclusion - much less seeing Daemon/Rhaenyra not making a single attempt for years and years to prove that they had no hand in any of that.

That's just nonsensical writing - and, again, THIS SHIT WASN'T IN THE BOOK!

21 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Daena the Defiant later openly had a bastard and it was used against her as a reason (or an excuse) to pass her over for the throne.

LOL. Did Rhaenyra Targaryen have a bastard when she married Laenor? She was married to Laenor at a time when her father and the court knew she was sleeping around - both in book and show. And it had no effect on her status as heir nor on her standing as a royal princess.

Just try processing the fact that Rhaenyra revealing she also slept with Criston Cole would not further damage her reputation. It would, however, completely destroy Criston Cole - and it actually makes no sense that she and Laenor (who also knew that Criston had been sleeping with Rhaenyra) wouldn't just do this.

And the motivational problem there simply is the fact that Criston brutally murders Joffrey Lonmouth without provocation. He has no excuse for it at all, unlike in the book, where the setting is different.

In the book Rhaenyra Targaryen and Laenor Velaryon also don't really get along and don't seem to be as close as they are in the show. In the show Rhaenyra would gladly help Laenor to avenge Joffrey ... whereas in the book Rhaenyra might care for Joffrey even less than she cared about Laenor.

In the book Criston Cole also seems to be beneath Rhaenyra's notice after their falling-out. In the show that's harder to sell considering the guy not only murders her husband's lover but also ends up messing with her sons.

21 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Rhaenyra is not trying to get married, she's trying to become the first ruling Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.

Rhaenyra already is married at the time the Criston Cole situation would be discussed. And as I said repeatedly - the Rhaenyra-Laenor match healed the breach between the branches of Aemon and Baelon Targaryen. Laenor is married to Rhaenyra so he can be the prince consort and Corlys' grandchildren can one day sit the Iron Throne.

They all would have no motivation nor a reason to fuck all that up because of some murderous commoner who should have never gotten a white cloak.

[Annara Snow]

Oh yes, it's well known that people in Westeros have absolutely no problem with married women sleeping with men other than their husbands and having children with them! 

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Actually, I'm laughing my ass off right now, since you actually don't seem to know or care about the original material.

No, my dude, I don't care about your headcanons about the original material. The ones where Rhaenyra is an all-powerful, flawless girlboss that no one could touch and that almost everyone supported,. but oh! The Dance still somehow happened! How did that come to pass? 

If you're laughing your ass off because people don't buy your headcanons - well, I guess, go and have a good time, because you'll be laughing your ass off a lot!

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It is only Mushroom who suggests that Daemon was involved - decades after the fact. 

All of the accounts were written after the Dance, so "decades after" Laenor's death - so I have no idea what you think you did there.

Mushroom's account often uses rumors that were circling around at the time. I don't think he went and made up every single one of them (though he certainly did some, like the ones where he self-inserted). Maybe you'd like to think that, but that would make his very existence in the story very pointless. 

He's unreliable, but guess what: so is every account in F&B. Eustace, Munkun, they are all unreliable in their different ways, as are Gyldayn's conclusions.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

13 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

Mushroom's account often uses rumors that were circling around at the time. I don't think he went and made up every single one of them (though he certainly did some, like the ones where he self-inserted). Maybe you'd like to think that, but that would make his very existence in the story very pointless.

For what it's worth, GRRM said that people in King's Landing weren't afraid to speak about their secrets in front of Mushroom because they thought that he was a simpleton who wouldn't understand anything. So he has to be correct at least about something in the story.

[Annara Snow]

25 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

For what it's worth, GRRM said that people in King's Landing weren't afraid to speak about their secrets in front of Mushroom because they thought that he was a simpleton who wouldn't understand anything. So he has to be correct at least about something in the story.

I can imagine if the events of the War of the Five Kings were told through a bunch of unreliable accounts, and Moon Boy was a Mushroom-like figure and wrote an account, he's write down every scandalous rumor there was at the time - so he'd write about how Patchface was Shireen's father, Catelyn had a threesome with Jaime and Brienne in his cell before letting him go, Sansa killed Joffrey with a spell and then turned into a wolf with bat wings, etc. and he might write a self-insert story about how he had threesomes with Cersei and Jaime. But he's also occasionally write down some true ones. He'd be the only one who would mention that. when Lord Tywin was found dead on the privy, a naked young woman was found strangled in his bed - while all the other, more sanitized accounts by maesters and septons would keep quiet about it as improper and unlikely for someone like Lord Tywin, who was so chaste and so against prostitution and sleeping around!

Edited February 17, 2023 by Annara Snow

[Lord Varys]

34 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

Oh yes, it's well known that people in Westeros have absolutely no problem with married women sleeping with men other than their husbands and having children with them! 

Just read my stuff. We are talking about Rhaenyra having pre-marital sex in book & show with Daemon and/or Criston. That has literally nothing to do with her sleeping around during her marriage which came later.

I'm quite aware that a royal woman might get in trouble if she slept around in her marriage ... if her husband and the king object. But sleeping around prior to your marriage is not necessarily a big problem.

34 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

No, my dude, I don't care about your headcanons about the original material. The ones where Rhaenyra is an all-powerful, flawless girlboss that no one could touch and that almost everyone supported,. but oh! The Dance still somehow happened! How did that come to pass? 

LOL, I don't have head canons. I merely point out what's written in the book.

34 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

All of the accounts were written after the Dance, so "decades after" Laenor's death - so I have no idea what you think you did there.

That means that the Velaryons clearly never thought that Daemon was involved in Laenor's death - because then they wouldn't have supported Rhaenyra/Daemon during the Dance. Hell, considering Rhaenys' fiery temperament in the book - Corlys feared her to the point of not acknowleding the Hull boys if they were his children - they might have even sent assassins after Daemon if she had believed the guy murdered her son.

34 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

Mushroom's account often uses rumors that were circling around at the time. I don't think he went and made up every single one of them (though he certainly did some, like the ones where he self-inserted). Maybe you'd like to think that, but that would make his very existence in the story very pointless. 

He's unreliable, but guess what: so is every account in F&B. Eustace, Munkun, they are all unreliable in their different ways, as are Gyldayn's conclusions.

Go back and read the section of FaB where Gyldayn gives us Mushroom's take on Laenor's death:

Quote

Mushroom, as always, favors the most sinister theory, suggesting that Prince Daemon paid Qarl Correy to dispose of Princess Rhaenyra’s husband, arranged for a ship to carry him away, then cut his throat and fed him to the sea.

No indication that Mushroom actually witnessed anything there. He merely assumes that somebody else was directing Qarl's hand. There is no indication there that Mushroom personally witnessed something or were himself involved in the deed (as he claims with Rhaenyra in the brothel, little Visenya's looks, him trying to mount Silverwing, him suggesting to look for dragonseeds, etc). It would even be hard to assume Mushroom could have witnessed something there since Laenor died on Driftmark where Daemon lived at that time, too, as Laena's widower and son-in-law to Corlys and Rhaenys. But Mushroom lived at court or on Dragonstone at that time. He was never the fool of the Velaryons at High Tide.

Instead, this seems to be Mushroom speculating about conspiracies that may be completely invented. Just because Daemon (and Rhaenyra) profited from Laenor's death doesn't mean they had anything to do with it. (Tommen also profited from Joffrey's death but he didn't have anything to do with that, either.)

32 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

For what it's worth, GRRM said that people in King's Landing weren't afraid to speak about their secrets in front of Mushroom because they thought that he was a simpleton who wouldn't understand anything. So he has to be correct at least about something in the story.

He certainly is correct about something - but as I pointed out above there is no reason to assume he was right about this. Even if he was - then he obviously never told the Velaryons who didn't suspect Daemon being the guy who arranged the murder of their son.

Which they randomly and stupidly think he and Rhaenyra did in the show.

The notion that Daemon would openly talk about murdering Laenor at all also strikes me as very unlikely. Could he dare tell Rhaenyra this if he did it so he could marry her? Really hard to say. Talking about this at all would carry the risk of Corlys being informed about it - and he put a reward of 10,000 dragons for information on the whereabouts and fate of Qarl Correy. I mean, would Mushroom himself keep quiet about knowing this about Daemon if he could get 10,000 dragons from Corlys? Would anyone at the citadel of Dragonstone? Not bloody likely.

Thus it strikes me that Mushroom speculates there along a cheap 'Cui bono...?' routine - Daemon quickly married Rhaenyra after Laenor's death, he profited from Laenor's death, so of course Daemon must have been behind it. And not, say, Harwin Strong or Rhaenyra herself or Vaemond Velaryon, etc.

[Annara Snow]

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Just read my stuff. We are talking about Rhaenyra having pre-marital sex in book & show with Daemon and/or Criston. That has literally nothing to do with her sleeping around during her marriage which came later.

I'm quite aware that a royal woman might get in trouble if she slept around in her marriage ... if her husband and the king object. But sleeping around prior to your marriage is not necessarily a big problem.

LOL, I don't have head canons. I merely point out what's written in the book.

That means that the Velaryons clearly never thought that Daemon was involved in Laenor's death - because then they wouldn't have supported Rhaenyra/Daemon during the Dance. Hell, considering Rhaenys' fiery temperament in the book - Corlys feared her to the point of not acknowleding the Hull boys if they were his children - they might have even sent assassins after Daemon if she had believed the guy murdered her son.

Go back and read the section of FaB where Gyldayn gives us Mushroom's take on Laenor's death:

No indication that Mushroom actually witnessed anything there. He merely assumes that somebody else was directing Qarl's hand. There is no indication there that Mushroom personally witnessed something or were himself involved in the deed (as he claims with Rhaenyra in the brothel, little Visenya's looks, him trying to mount Silverwing, him suggesting to look for dragonseeds, etc). It would even be hard to assume Mushroom could have witnessed something there since Laenor died on Driftmark where Daemon lived at that time, too, as Laena's widower and son-in-law to Corlys and Rhaenys. But Mushroom lived at court or on Dragonstone at that time. He was never the fool of the Velaryons at High Tide.

Instead, this seems to be Mushroom speculating about conspiracies that may be completely invented. Just because Daemon (and Rhaenyra) profited from Laenor's death doesn't mean they had anything to do with it. (Tommen also profited from Joffrey's death but he didn't have anything to do with that, either.)

He certainly is correct about something - but as I pointed out above there is no reason to assume he was right about this. Even if he was - then he obviously never told the Velaryons who didn't suspect Daemon being the guy who arranged the murder of their son.

Which they randomly and stupidly think he and Rhaenyra did in the show.

The notion that Daemon would openly talk about murdering Laenor at all also strikes me as very unlikely. Could he dare tell Rhaenyra this if he did it so he could marry her? Really hard to say. Talking about this at all would carry the risk of Corlys being informed about it - and he put a reward of 10,000 dragons for information on the whereabouts and fate of Qarl Correy. I mean, would Mushroom himself keep quiet about knowing this about Daemon if he could get 10,000 dragons from Corlys? Would anyone at the citadel of Dragonstone? Not bloody likely.

Thus it strikes me that Mushroom speculates there along a cheap 'Cui bono...?' routine - Daemon quickly married Rhaenyra after Laenor's death, he profited from Laenor's death, so of course Daemon must have been behind it. And not, say, Harwin Strong or Rhaenyra herself or Vaemond Velaryon, etc.

What a Straw Man. Absolutely no one said that Mushroom witnessed anything regarding Laenor's death.

I said he recorded various rumors that were circling around and that it's unlikely he straight up invented every one of them (because that would make his use as a source by GRRM pointless; the idea is that they are all unreliable but not that they are completely useless).

I don't know what you think you're proving by bolding "the most sinister theory". Yes, it's obviously the most sinister one, so? Most sinister because it would be a planned, premeditated murder for interest. That sure doesn't make it "outlandish" and no one even said it was outlandish. Not that Gyldayn thinking stories  are outlandish would mean they definitely are (he believes all sorts of actually outlandish stories by Mushroom or Eustace but draws the line at things like Jace falling in love with a Northern bastard), but in this case, he doesn't say it is outlandish or unlikely.

What most likely happened is that people suspected Daemon because he and Rhaenyra got married not long after Laenor's death, and because they thought he might do something like that in general. Just as they presumably do in the show.

In the show, Daemon talked to Rhaenyra about how people will suspect them (because of the whole getting marrie right after his death thing) and that this can even be a good thing. That certainly doesn't mean he went and told people he had Laenor murdered - which would be implicating himself. Officially, as far as anyone knows, Laenor was killed by Qarl in a quarel. 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Annara Snow said:

What a Straw Man. Absolutely no one said that Mushroom witnessed anything regarding Laenor's death.

I said he recorded various rumors that were circling around and that it's unlikely he straight up invented every one of them (because that would make his use as a source by GRRM pointless; the idea is that they are all unreliable but not that they are completely useless).

There is no indication that Mushroom merely records a theory 'that was floating around' when he accuses Daemon of being the guy behind Qarl's deed.

Also, the entire narrative doesn't give the slightest indication that the Velaryons, specifically, believed that Daemon and/or Rhaenyra were behind Laenor's murder - that's show nonense and it makes no sense.

My point is that the book doesn't claim that the Velaryons believed Daemon was involved in the murder of Laenor - which you claimed earlier.

1 hour ago, Annara Snow said:

What most likely happened is that people suspected Daemon because he and Rhaenyra got married not long after Laenor's death, and because they thought he might do something like that in general. Just as they presumably do in the show.

That is not 'most likely' since nothing in the narrative we have indicates that anyone of note actually believed Laenor Velaryon was murdered at the behest of Daemon or Rhaenyra. If they had believed something like this it would have consequences in Westerosi history, consequences we would read about in FaB.

I mean, honestly, I don't understand how you cannot see this. In the main series certain people believe a certain old man was murdered at the behest of the wife of his old friend ... and this effectively helped to cause a civil war. The belief that an ugly dwarf sent an assassin after a comatose boy (and his mother) also triggered severe repercussions against the allegedly guilty party at the hands of the party who felt wronged by said dwarf. The actual real gruesome murder of three members of the royal family causes an ailing lord and his hot-headed brother to scheme and plot destroy an entire noble house for years and years.

But sure enough - the richest man in Westeros and an apparently royal princess with a fiery temperament would do nothing if they suspected or knew for a fact that their son-in-law murdered their son - the brother of his late wife - to marry their daughter-in-law.

1 hour ago, Annara Snow said:

In the show, Daemon talked to Rhaenyra about how people will suspect them (because of the whole getting marrie right after his death thing) and that this can even be a good thing. That certainly doesn't mean he went and told people he had Laenor murdered - which would be implicating himself. Officially, as far as anyone knows, Laenor was killed by Qarl in a quarel. 

It is just shitty writing - you know what people who actually can think would do if they were in the shoes of Rhaenyra and Daemon there?

They would plot Laenor's alleged death more carefully so nobody would think they were involved. Or they would fucking tell his parents that he wasn't dead. If they didn't want their subsequent marriage to cause suspicions - they could have fucking waited a year or two before going through. In the show they are in no rush to marry and Daemon could still be Rhaenyra's ally and supporter without being her consort (yet). After all, in the books Rhaenyra may have already been pregnant with Aegon at the time of her marriage to Daemon (which she had no way of knowing a day after Laena's funeral).

Also - why it might make some sense if their enemies would view them as capable of cold-blooded murder - it is utter horseshit to even pretend it might make sense for them to want the Velaryons to believe that. They are dependent on their support as we see later, so they should have ensured that they don't believe shit like that. Because if they believe it, they might not, in fact, support them.

How fucked-up the writing there is you also see later when the Greens actually never so much as reference the death or Laenor. They certainly don't believe Rhaenyra is capable of murdering her own husband. If they had been thinking this thing would have come up as argument for Vaemond's case as well as being something they considered when staging the coup - either as a point to spread fear of 'Rhaenyra's tyranny' or by actually giving them pause when staging the coup fearing Rhaenyra's brutal vengeance.

[Annara Snow]

Yes, you are right. They did a poll of all the people of note, found out that no one of note believed that Daemon might have been behind Laenor's murder, and it says so explicitly that just some peasants might have believed it, but everyone of note was adamant that it was an outlanfish idea, outlandish I say!

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Yes, you are right. They did a poll of all the people of note, found out that no one of note believed that Daemon might have been behind Laenor's murder, and it says so explicitly that just some peasants might have believed it, but everyone of note was adamant that it was an outlanfish idea, outlandish I say!

It was specifically about the Velaryons believing this - Rhaenys and Corlys. It is no small thing on your part to claim that in-laws of Rhaenyra and Daemon actually believed they murdered their son to fuck and marry. And that Rhaenys and Corlys would later fight and die for their cause if they believed something like that.

And for the hundredth time: It isn't in the book that they believed that. You made it up.

[Alester Florent]

On 2/16/2023 at 5:40 PM, Lord Varys said:

Your own take on how sleeping around prior to marriage destroys royal women also doesn't seem to be very accurate. Of course, it tarnishes a woman's reputation ... but the 'slut' Elaena Targaryen, who gave birth to two bastards after she got out of the Maidenvault, later ended up marrying three men and rose to prominence and power at the court of Daeron II. Apparently men were still accepting her as wife, presumably because she was a royal princess. Even lesser noblewomen aren't completely ruined by something like that, as Walder Frey's sister shows - or Lysa Tully.

Two of Elaena's marriages were pretty much trash though, by royal standards. Ossifer Plumm was an old man from a relatively minor house for her first marriage, and Michael Manwoody wasn't a lord at all, just a knightly retainer from Dorne. Only Ronnel Penrose seems like a match worthy of a princess, and it'll be interesting to learn more about how that came about.

Do we know that Jon Arryn knew about Lysa's previous dalliance? I would have thought part of the reason Hoster forced her to abort the baby was to avoid precisely the "ruining" effect talked about.

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Two of Elaena's marriages were pretty much trash though, by royal standards. Ossifer Plumm was an old man from a relatively minor house for her first marriage, and Michael Manwoody wasn't a lord at all, just a knightly retainer from Dorne. Only Ronnel Penrose seems like a match worthy of a princess, and it'll be interesting to learn more about how that came about.

That's not accurate. Ossifer Plumm was an immensely wealthy Lord of the West who was married to Elaena because her royal cousin wanted tp - and eventually did - take all the Plumm money for himself. Ronnel Penrose was Daeron II's Master of Coin and likely also a man of Targaryen descent (assuming he is the father of Aelinor Penrose) - a man Elaena was married because the king asked her to. This was a political match and Elaena was princess enough to actually serve her cousin in that capacity. She was not damaged goods. Michael Manwoody was the man Elaena married for love in the end - but he didn't care about her being a double widow nor a bastard-birthing slut.

7 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Do we know that Jon Arryn knew about Lysa's previous dalliance? I would have thought part of the reason Hoster forced her to abort the baby was to avoid precisely the "ruining" effect talked about.

Lysa may not be the best example as Jon might indeed not know about Littlefinger (but we actually don't know that he didn't know) but she is to illustrate what a father could still do if there are mere rumors about sleeping around and now bastards to prove the sluttiness of the woman. After all, the topic we discuss here is the notion that Rhaenyra - a royal princess and the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne - could be destroyed as a woman and an heir to the throne by admitting to or people believing she was sleeping around prior to her most prestigious marriage. And that is just no chance that this would be the case.

We could also go with Saera Targaryen - who would have been married to somebody had she not provoked her father too much, as were her companions. Coryanne Wylde was also not destroyed by birthing a bastard, and neither was Delena Florent.

It is the case that noblewomen can have trouble making really prestigious matches if they are believed to be sluts. But heiresses and future queens could likely have armies of bastards ... as long as they remain heiresses and future queens (which in certain scenarios cannot be changed - e.g. if the woman in question is simply the only known heir) men of high birth and great ambition would still want to marry them. Especially such men of high birth who aren't heirs themselves.

But the example of Walder's sister also illustrates the fact that well-connected and wealthy lords can still make prestigious matches for daughters of ill repute. Money, wealth, power, and high birth are more important than the reputation of women.

[Porfirio K. Heisler]

Wow, it's clear that you're a big fan of Robb Stark! I completely understand why you feel that way. He was certainly a decent and brave leader who fought for justice. It's always sad when we lose someone who has made an impact on us, and I can see that Robb's death has affected you deeply.

[Annara Snow]

On 2/28/2023 at 1:34 AM, Alester Florent said:

Two of Elaena's marriages were pretty much trash though, by royal standards. Ossifer Plumm was an old man from a relatively minor house for her first marriage, and Michael Manwoody wasn't a lord at all, just a knightly retainer from Dorne. Only Ronnel Penrose seems like a match worthy of a princess, and it'll be interesting to learn more about how that came about.

Do we know that Jon Arryn knew about Lysa's previous dalliance? I would have thought part of the reason Hoster forced her to abort the baby was to avoid precisely the "ruining" effect talked about.

It's implied Jon Arryn knew, because I think it's mentioned he probably resented Lysa for having to marry a 'soiiled' girl.

However, Jon Arryn was practically blackmailed by Hoster Tully because he wouldn't give him military support in the war unless he married Lysa. And for that to happen, Hoster needed to trick Lysa into miscarring her child - because Jon would obviously not want to acknowledge another man's child as his own, nor would be have married a girl who had a bastard, and neither Hoster nor Jon would've tolerated their reputations being smeared and Jon Arryn would never agree if it meant people would laugh at him. So it was incredibly important no one else knew.

There is no doubt that public knowledge of a woman having had a bastard and generally having been "soiled" significantly reduces her chances in that society, both for a good marriage, and, which is crucial in this case, of inheriting - especially when it's the throne. It certainly contributed to reducing Daena's chances of taking the throne.

And both the book and show imply that at least Daemon believed that ruining Rhaenyra's reputation would be enough for him to blackmail Viserys to marry her to him, because "no one else would want her now". 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Annara Snow

[SoftSpell]

Even if he did know, Jon Arryn needed an alliance with the Riverlands and got it via marriage.  Just as people seemed to guess that Rayenna was sleeping around and perceived her children were illegitimate.

Aaaaaaanyway, there's no way to know how things would have unfolded even if she admitted it publicly. House Hightower and co. were preparing for their coup-by-the-backdoor steadily. They would have just used it to denounced her and cement a desire in most nobles' minds someone else needed to ascend to the Iron Throne.

[Annara Snow]

27 minutes ago, SoftSpell said:

Even if he did know, Jon Arryn needed an alliance with the Riverlands and got it via marriage.  Just as people seemed to guess that Rayenna was sleeping around and perceived her children were illegitimate.

Aaaaaaanyway, there's no way to know how things would have unfolded even if she admitted it publicly. House Hightower and co. were preparing for their coup-by-the-backdoor steadily. They would have just used it to denounced her and cement a desire in most nobles' minds someone else needed to ascend to the Iron Throne.

House Hightower wasn't preparing a coup. There's zero evidence in book or show that Lord Ormund Hightower or his father were involved.

The Council prepared and took part in the coup, minus Beesbury: Otto Hightower, Queen Alicenr Hightower, Criston Cole, Tyland Lannister, Jasper Wylde, Grand Maester Orwyle.

[SoftSpell]

14 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

House Hightower wasn't preparing a coup. There's zero evidence in book or show that Lord Ormund Hightower or his father were involved.

When he was Lord of House Hightower received a letter from his younger brother, Ser Otto;

On no account can Prince Daemon be allowed to ascend to the Iron Throne.[...] He would be a second Maegor the Cruel, or worse.[...] Better the Realm’s Delight than Lord Flea Bottom.

So he KNEW about it being likely to happen in the future. Ormund would lead his family's forces in the Reach. So yes, 'House Hightower' as in more than one member, as a broader political entity, participated in the coup.