Landkings: “Foundation” of Magic in Planetos

[Phylum of Alexandria]

17 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

The world is bit different though. Westeros is described as the green lands, usually by the people who want to invade it (Ironborn definitely, but also Dany I think). It's the temperate zone I think, Renly's summer kingdom.

Red is defined by the Red Waste, Astapor and probably Valyria - the lands of consuming fire.

I can agree with this. The lands are much more diverse (and colorful) than the tri-color schematic of cyvasse terrains. But I think it's specifically about where the weirwoods gather and grow. Even for the Team Green weirwoods, it is implied that they grow much deeper into the earth than most people assume (because they take them for trees). So below the earth is a very important consideration.

While the deepest that Team Blue may go is the cold depths of the ocean, Team Red likely grows in all of the sources of geothermal heat and magma--volcanoes only being the most conspicuous points from a terrestrial point of view. I agree, going down into the depths of the earth seems important for the source of Fire Magic.

Team Green seems right at home next to the natural hot springs in Winterfell, yet the Ghost of High Heart notes that fire visions won't work near them. And here I think there is an interesting subtlety of color usage. As I noted in a recent post, the weirwoods we see have a red/white color scheme, just like Jon's wolf Ghost. GRRM uses wolves to indicate heat in his writing, and red indicates not just blood, but fire. But importantly, it's coupled with white, a cold color. Especially in the context of the North, I think these colors represent counter-balancing forces, a sort of harmony. The wolves and the weirwoods in the North represent vital warmth against the cold. Maybe the trees of Essos looked different before they were corrupted. My guess is that they had green leaves based on the Garth Greenhand legends, but we can't say for sure.

29 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Blue is occasionally sea or ice, but my impression is it's most connected to the sky - sky-blue silks, the blue calling to prisoners of the Sky Cells, hawk skinchangers mesmerised by the blue sky.

Blue certainly connects with sky plenty of times in the story. The problem with color language in writing is that it often is used for several purposes. I don't think sky will relate to the Others, except to the extent that icy winds can evoke the coldness of their attribution. And that might indeed be what GRRM is doing in the Eyrie. 

32 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

This suggests an up-down perspective - blue above and red below.

I guess I'd have to look back at the red imagery, but I imagine there are some red hot desert skies as well. Or blood red sunsets. 

34 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Another thought - we know the red trees, and the blue trees, but we usually overlook the green trees. GRRM puts a lot of love in the green trees too - sentinels and soldier pines, (more army/soldier references I can't quite remember), trees that claw at characters, characters that fight trees (mainly Arya, but also Sandor and maybe Asha counts too). Something will come of it.

Could be! As mentioned, so much of the Garth imagery relates to green leaves. Maybe there were weirwoods with green leaves once, before they were corrupted. Maybe they only grow red when growing near hot springs to survive in the cold North. And maybe, since the Green Men still keep their watch on the Isle of Faces, the weirwoods there have green leaves instead of red.

[Springwatch]

7 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

While the deepest that Team Blue may go is the cold depths of the ocean,

Nagga's ribs can be seen both as a sea monster and as a grove of weirwoods, so that's all good.

7 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Team Red likely grows in all of the sources of geothermal heat and magma--volcanoes only being the most conspicuous points from a terrestrial point of view. I agree, going down into the depths of the earth seems important for the source of Fire Magic.

Team Green seems right at home next to the natural hot springs in Winterfell, yet the Ghost of High Heart notes that fire visions won't work near them. And here I think there is an interesting subtlety of color usage. As I noted in a recent post, the weirwoods we see have a red/white color scheme, just like Jon's wolf Ghost. GRRM uses wolves to indicate heat in his writing, and red indicates not just blood, but fire. But importantly, it's coupled with white, a cold color. Especially in the context of the North, I think these colors represent counter-balancing forces, a sort of harmony. The wolves and the weirwoods in the North represent vital warmth against the cold. Maybe the trees of Essos looked different before they were corrupted. My guess is that they had green leaves based on the Garth Greenhand legends, but we can't say for sure.

Yes, that feels right, it does seem things appear out of their native element, against their nature sometimes. Does make it awfully tricky for the reader to see patterns though.

7 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Blue certainly connects with sky plenty of times in the story. The problem with color language in writing is that it often is used for several purposes. I don't think sky will relate to the Others, except to the extent that icy winds can evoke the coldness of their attribution. And that might indeed be what GRRM is doing in the Eyrie. 

I guess I'd have to look back at the red imagery, but I imagine there are some red hot desert skies as well. Or blood red sunsets. 

Yeah the sky doesn't have much to do with trees, but I still think something's going on there and the up-down thing mostly holds true, though it might be random. A red sun is a low sun after all. A red moon too I think.

 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

20 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Nagga's ribs can be seen both as a sea monster and as a grove of weirwoods, so that's all good.

8 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Yes. Also, like Crowfood's Daughter, I think all the talk about krakens are actually weirwoods.

Would cold-blooded weirwoods under the sea talk to those in the Heart of Winter? I'm not sure about that, but not necessarily. The tri-color scheme might not have to do with weirnets, but it a possibility to consider.

24 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Yes, that feels right, it does seem things appear out of their native element, against their nature sometimes. Does make it awfully tricky for the reader to see patterns though.

Agreed! I want to do a re-read thinking about color combinations. Obviously black and red correspond to the hottest of the hot, to the extent that I wouldn't be surprised if Team Red's weirwoods were black and red. And a likely combo for coolest of the cool is blue and white, which the White Walkers already sport. Not to mention House Arryn! Maybe that's the reason why the red leafed weirwoods won't grow in the Eyrie? Simply too cold?

28 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Yeah the sky doesn't have much to do with trees, but I still think something's going on there and the up-down thing mostly holds true, though it might be random. A red sun is a low sun after all. A red moon too I think.

Yeah, maybe it's a relative thing.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

@Evolett, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this post! 

[Ser Lepus]

Have you heard about Great Chess, the game King Alphonso the Wise of Castile wrote about in his Codex of Games? He also wrote about a 4-players chess variant, the Four Seasons Chess, and Decimal Chess (normal chess plus a "Judge" piece), and he used 8-sided and 7-sided dice...

[Evolett]

4 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this post! 

Believe me, I've been thinking about this post and your tri-colour observations in general and can probably speak to individual symbols. How they might come together to form a coherent whole eludes me, however. 

First, let me say I like your intepretation of cyvasse, the red-blue-green colour-coding as terrain and the black and white pieces representing warring factions defending a Sandking-type king or queen. Can't say I'm completely sold on black and white being representative of shade trees and weirwoods but I don't really have any other suggestion at the moment. Going back to the quote;

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“He had left her in her chambers, bent over a gaming table opposite Prince Trystane, pushing ornate pieces across squares of jade and carnelian and lapis lazuli. Myrcella's full lips had been slightly parted, her green eyes narrowed with concentration. Cyvasse, the game was called. It had come to the Planky Town on a trading galley from Volantis, and the orphans had spread it up and down the Greenblood. The Dornish court was mad for it.”

Ser Arys just found it maddening. There were ten different pieces, each with its own attributes and powers, and the board would change from game to game, depending on how the players arrayed their home squares.”

— The Soiled Knight, AFFC

"and the board would change from game to game, depending on how the players arrayed their home squares.”

This bit of information seems important in the context not only of warring factions, but also of wars being fought in different regions of Planetos as well as in terms of differing factions conquering and acquiring the lands of the vanquished peoples, thus assimilating them and gaining them as allies for their own kingdoms (or supreme kings or queens). Besides the extent of the territory and the degree to which it provides sustainance to the population, the presence or absence of certain geographical features can be advantageous to certain war strategies and detrimental to others. This also goes for man-made constructs such as bridges or strategically placed castles. Whoever commands Moat Cailin controls the route into the North from the South. Walder Frey's bridge was a must have for Robb Stark, the Green Fork being an obstacle he had to cross. The wight attack on the Fist of the First Men may have been about securing that high vantage point for team Ice rather than decimating the Night's Watch.

A cyvasse player who arranges his home squares differently each time possibly reflects that person's (or faction's) ability to acquire extensive territories along with the allegiance of the original occupants, thus extending their region of influence and chances of success during a war effort.  Trystane Martell's arrangements that are predictable reflect Dorne's stagnation in this regard, while Myrcella's use of differing arrangements of terrain mirrors the Lannister expansion taking place during and after the war of the five kings. 

We know the game originated in Essos and appears only recently to have reached Westeros, specifically Dorne (first mention in aFFC). If GRRM is going for a Sandking maw-type idea, then it would seem at least one of our key "players" or "maws" is of Essosi origin and is now preparing to take over Westerosi territory. Melisandre thinks this is about a battle between light and darkness or the Lord of Light against the Great Other (who is the lord of darkness). So we have another intepretation for black and white right there - white vrs. black, light vrs. dark. 

 

The Triple Spiral

The sigil of House Massey, the triple spiral or triskele is tricky because there are variations of it in many cultures. It is thought to represent the cycles, particularly cycles of life - birth, death, rebirth - which fit into the fertility motif in asoiaf. Then there is the idea of past, present and future or the spiritual world, earthly world and celestial realm. What I find compelling and relevant to the story is the triple spiral's connection to the Winter Solstice as seen in the Megalithic structure Newgrange, located in the Boyne Valley in Ireland. 

The Winter Solstice marks the longest night of the year and occurs during the respective hemisphere's winter months, December, in the northern hemisphere. There is continuous darkness at the poles during this period. The triple spiral symbol is carved into stone at Newgrange and illuminated at the Winter Solstice

Quoted from the source (taken from a couple of pages):

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Prof. Michael J. O’Kelly who excavated and restored Newgrange between 1962 and 1975, referred to the design as a Three-Spiral symbol. In his book Newgrange - Archaeology, Art and Legend, he states that there was a belief in the neighbourhood that the rising sun, used to light up the three-spiral stone in the end recess of the chamber. Since Newgrange faces southeast, Prof. O'Kelly decided to investigate the Winter Solstice sunrise.

Above the entrance to the passage at Newgrange there is an opening called a roof-box. Its purpose is to allow sunlight to penetrate the passage and chamber at sunrise around the Winter Solstice. At 8:58am a narrow beam of light penetrates the roof-box and reaches the floor of the chamber, gradually extending to the rear of the passage. As the sun rises higher, the beam widens within the chamber so that the whole room becomes dramatically illuminated. After 17 minutes the sunbeam leaves the chamber and retreats back down the passage.

This beam of sunlight that lights up a dark passage at the Winter Solstice, the longest night of the year (and a long night of several months at the poles), seems an obvious reference to the Long Night and struggle for the Dawn in asoiaf. If the red, green and blue colours represent warring factions, then GRRM's use of the colours in this particular symbol could indicate that those factions must come together and overcome their differences in order for light to return. Then also may predictable cycles of nature be restored. 

The Muppets are next in another post. 

 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

13 hours ago, Evolett said:

First, let me say I like your intepretation of cyvasse, the red-blue-green colour-coding as terrain and the black and white pieces representing warring factions defending a Sandking-type king or queen. Can't say I'm completely sold on black and white being representative of shade trees and weirwoods but I don't really have any other suggestion at the moment.

I agree that one its own, the black and white cyvasse pieces representing weirwood and shade magic is only weakly suggestive. But it’s in conjunction with other evidence that such a symbol seems quite fitting.

So why do I think “it’s all weirwoods?”

The first set of evidence for me was certain literary ties (brought up by LmL and then Crowfood's Daughter), and not knowing what to make of them. For instance, ties of the Others to trees and weirwoods, etc. Here's a sampling:

“A cold wind was blowing out of the north, and it made the trees rustle like living things.” —AGOT, Prologue

“Down below, the lordling called out suddenly, "Who goes there?" Will heard uncertainty in the challenge. He stopped climbing; he listened; he watched.

The woods gave answer: the rustle of leaves, the icy rush of the stream, a distant hoot of a snow owl.

The Others made no sound.” —AGOT, Prologue

"Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took." —AGOT, Prologue

"The wide smooth trunks were bone pale, and nine faces stared inward." — AGOT, Jon VI

“The greatest of the priests was the towering prophet Galon Whitestaff, so-called for the tall carved staff he carried everywhere to smite the ungodly. (In some tales his staff was made of weirwood, in others from one of Nagga's bones.)” —TWOIAF, The Iron Islands

“Outside, the night was white as death; pale thin clouds danced attendance on a silver moon, while a thousand stars watched coldly. He could see the humped shapes of other huts buried beneath drifts of snow, and beyond them the pale shadow of a weirwood armored in ice.” — ADWD, Prologue

This one links Other imagery to an eldritch grass rather than an eldritch tree:

“Down in the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai, they say there are oceans of ghost grass, taller than a man on horseback with stalks as pale as milkglass. It murders all other grass and glows in the dark with the spirits of the damned. The Dothraki claim that someday ghost grass will cover the entire world, and then all life will end.” — AGOT, Dany III

What about fire? At some point, I have wondered if the Green weirwoods were catalyzing Beric Dondarrion’s fire sword. But the Ghost of High Heart does point out that the fire visions won’t work near them. So what was the point of Beric’s weirwood throne? Perhaps to supply us with imagery like this:

“A huge firepit had been dug in the center of the earthen floor, and its flames rose swirling and crackling toward the smoke-stained ceiling. The walls were equal parts stone and soil, with huge white roots twisting through them like a thousand slow pale snakes.” —ASOS, Arya VI

Weirwood roots are compared to pale snakes and worms more than a few times in the story, but here it’s coupled with fire imagery.

How are the parasitic baby fire wyrms described in Fire & Blood? “Worms with faces, snakes with hands.” And the experience leads Septon Barth to write Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns: An Unnatural History.

Fire wyrms are blind cave dwellers, and so it makes sense that they’d be colored white, just like the weirwood roots. So imagine a horde of pale snakes writhing through the fiery cracks of the Fourteen Flames. 

Anyway, I didn’t know what to make of these associations. Then, when I was groaning about the Tully muppets, I noticed that their colors matched those of the Trident, then elsewhere in the story, including cyvasse.

So the colors seemed important, but it was really the “Three Singers” passage that brought everything together for me, and suddenly the Trident looked like an ancestral line. True, the river itself flows into one rather than from one into three, but even Bloodraven knows that time doesn’t flow like a river for a weirwood.

For me, the Three Singers passage is telling us something important. We think there is only one weirwood, but there are three. Planted by Garth, the “origin story of weirwoods” guy.

And they are the Three "Singers." GRRM has used “songs” to refer to psionic collectives before, such as with A Song for Lya. Given that the CotF are known as “those who sing the songs of earth,” wouldn’t the weirwoods sing those psionic songs as well?

It was only upon re-reading Sandkings that I began to think more about the specific details of cyvasse and what the colors might mean for weirwoods, more specifically.

 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

The "song" of the Three Singers, like the psionic collective of A Song for Lya, seems based on the metaphor of harmony. 

So maybe it's worth mentioning that according to the trichromatic theory of color vision, the human brain is primarily tuned to light in three wavelength bandwidths, corresponding to red, green, and blue. Other colors we perceive derive from the various tunings across these three dimensions (and RGB color space for computers replicates this). When all three dimensions are maxed out, we perceive white. When all are diminished, we perceive black.

It is why I cheekily named my idea the Trichromatic Theory of Magic, but maybe there is a dimension of harmony that he is trying to evoke.

Things have been out of whack on the planet for a while, probably ever since the cataclysm that led to the Long Night. From the Rhoynish, we have this story:

According to these tales, the return of the sun came only when a hero convinced Mother Rhoyne's many children—lesser gods such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River—to put aside their bickering and join together to sing a secret song that brought back the day.

The light metaphor works nicely here: all three dimensions are maxed out --> a bright shining sun.

I will admit it all sounds too hippie-dippie for me. GRRM is a hippie at heart, but he has to reconcile those feelings with a much more sober view of life's complexities and humanity's many faults. So if this harmonization across teams is relevant, I'm not sure how it will fit into his story, tonally speaking.

[Evolett]

3 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

So maybe it's worth mentioning that according to the trichromatic theory of color vision, the human brain is primarily tuned to light in three wavelength bandwidths, corresponding to red, green, and blue. Other colors we perceive derive from the various tunings across these three dimensions (and RGB color space for computers replicates this). When all three dimensions are maxed out, we perceive white. When all are diminished, we perceive black.

I presume you've noticed that RGB plus  its black maximum and white minimun constitute all the colours of the cyvasse board? 

 

Another thought on RGB symbolism, especially regarding the triple spiral: if we think of red in terms of heat and sunlight, green as vegetation and blue as water, it becomes clear that green is dependent on both cycles of red and blue. Combinations of these define the nature of a season and seasons are embedded in cycles of time. Time is cyclical, at least our measurement of it is based on its cyclical nature - the earth orbits the sun in a year, the moon orbits the earth in month etc. But the seasons have lost their predictable cyclical nature on Planetos and though time is measured, the length of a season is not determinable in advance. Extending the growing season (green) is desirable but to do so one would have to manipulate both red and blue. The best example for this that we can relate to are the glass gardens of Winterfell. Here, the growing season is extendend by artificial conditions that ensure food can be produced even in the depths of winter.   

I have no doubt that the growing seasons on Planetos are extended by magical means. There are only a few hints to this, like the glass gardens, but also Garth and his fertility magic, as well as the mention of Rhoynish water-witches who could make deserts bloom:

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it is said the Rhoynish water witches knew secret spells that made dry streams flow again and deserts bloom. 

So some Rhoynish women were well versed in water magic. They used it not only against their enemies, but to enhance food production. They were manipulators of the blue cycle. As suggested by the term "Orphans of the Greenblood," perhaps they had magicians who influenced the green cycle as well. These would be Garth-type wizards.  

Old Valyria was also called the Land of the Long Summer and known as the most fertile region in the world. I doubt this was because the geographical zone allowed it. More likely their magic tweaked the red cycle to extend the growing season. Of note is the Valyrian destruction of the Rhoynar. A war of red against blue and possibly green. The Valyrians probably came into possession of the magic of all three cycles after this and developed their part of the world to become the most fertile region on the planet. 

So does House Massey reflect this in any way? Perhaps. At present, Justin Massey, like the Rhoynar, has lost all his lands. He is allied with Stannis who has Shrouded Lord imagery surrounding him (Garin the Great, greyscale). In times gone by, the house was sworn to Storm's End (water + horned lord / Garth symbolism) but later swore allegiance to the Targs (Valyria). 

 

Sigil of House Strong

This one with its three straight RGB-lines representing the forks of the Trident contrasts the Massey spirals. Here the lines are linear instead of spiral or cyclic, perhaps reminding us of Bloodraven's comment about man seeing time as a river, flowing in one direction, not cyclical: 

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For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. 

Theoretically, one could apply this metaphor of time flowing in one direction to the asynchronous seasons. Summertime stretches on for years on end, even autumn is lengthy and in the worst case scenario, a winter can last a generation before a new seasonal cycle kicks in. Thus, characters who show red, blue or green colour symbolism, or combinations thereof, might harbour clues to why the seasons are more linear than properly cyclic.  

Thus, tied to the Strong RGB symbol is the idea that the "seed is strong," returning us to the fertility motif again. "The seed is strong" is demonstrated when all of Rhaenyra's children are born looking like her lover Harwin Strong. Ser Lucamore Strong, knight of the Kingsguard, broke his vows of celibacy, marring three women and siring a total of 16 children. After the scandal came to light, Ser Lucamore's children were forbidden from using the Strong surname and sent to different regions under the names of Rivers, Waters and Storm. From there their lineage is lost but we can assume their seed spread far and wide over time. Lucamore the Lusty sounds very much like Robert Baratheon and like a Garth figure. 

This "seed is strong" motif is relevant to at least two of the forks of the Trident. Think of Walder Frey, dominant personality of the Green Fork whose castle is named the "Twins," and who has so many descendants he could "field an army out of his breeches." At 90, he's still virile enough to marry an 8th wife and have more children with her. The twin towers on his sigil are blue, giving him green/blue symbolism.

The Tullys are situated on the Red Fork. The seed is strong in Catelyn especially. She has five children, four of which take after her, exhibiting her auburn hair and blue eyes. Lysa was also considered fertile, though she only had one child. The Tully sigil is red and blue however, matching their colouring and so they properly also belong in the blue faction. 

The Blue Fork is less prolific and more associated with extinct houses such as Oldstones and House Hoare. We note Catelyn explored the place during her childhood and also stopped over there with Robb, telling him of its history. Oldstones and its history also serves as poignant foreshadowing for Robb's downfall. Fairmarket is interesting in terms of reviving the population however: it is remembered for the Widows Fairs held there at the end of the Dance of the Dragons. Here, northmen who did not want to return north were offered the chance of meeting and marrying women who had lost their husbands. 

 This is only the tip of the iceberg since not included are the sources of these various rivers, some of which, like the Green Fork, have three. 

But again we have a battle of colours going on with Walder of team green/blue first an ally to and then an agressor against team red/blue. He not only took the Lord of House Tully hostage but has also acquired their genetics through Edmure's marriage to Roslin. What he has not achieved is gaining control over the Riverlands. Littlefinger holds the title Lord Paramount of the Riverlands. So in this "round of cyvasse," Littlefinger who had no direct involvement in the fighting actually wins the territorial prize. 

Anyway, since the different coloured forks of the Trident are associated with House Strong and the Strongs with creative ways of spreading their seed, I can see this particular trio representing bloodlines. Red and Green is successful in this regard while Blue is not. Blue is often also associated with death. I wonder whether the blue-sigil Freys settling on the Green Fork symbolically boosts their fertility, helping them to overcome the blue-death stigma. As things are right now, they might end up severly reduced or even extinct in the end. 

Still owe you the muppets but it's bedtime now

 

 

[kissdbyfire]

On 1/11/2023 at 5:40 PM, Craving Peaches said:

Possibly. I was thinking about Melisandre's ruby. If I recall correctly she gives it to Mance and then seems to be missing the obvious in her visions with regards to 'Snow'. Before her vision reading seems to have been on point.

Just saw it’s been brought up already, but here’s the quote where we see Mel still has her ruby and Mance’s is its ‘slave’. I think Mel may have a few of these slave rubies that she uses in different  glamors and such, like the one on the fake sword she gave Stannis.

ADwD, Melisandre I

The wildling wore a sleeveless jerkin of boiled leather dotted with bronze studs beneath a worn cloak mottled in shades of green and brown. No bones. He was cloaked in shadows too, in wisps of ragged grey mist, half-seen, sliding across his face and form with every step he took. Ugly things. As ugly as his bones. A widow's peak, close-set dark eyes, pinched cheeks, a mustache wriggling like a worm above a mouthful of broken brown teeth.

Melisandre felt the warmth in the hollow of her throat as her ruby stirred at the closeness of its slave. "You have put aside your suit of bones," she observed.

 

On 1/11/2023 at 5:48 PM, Craving Peaches said:

Presumably she predicted Cressen's poisoning attempt. Possibly the deaths of the other kings. I just think removing the ruby may have weakened the connection.

Did she? Or did she just use that as a way to ‘prove’ to Stannis that she has real power? 

[sweetsunray]

On 1/11/2023 at 9:01 PM, Craving Peaches said:

You may already be aware but House Massey has a red green blue Triskelion in their sigil. Perhaps this suggests the ability of the House to traverse the terrains of all the teams? Justin Massey has already survived the North, and is going to Essos - the 'red teams' territory?

Stannis is transitioning from red fire to green or at least adding green. He was a queen's men but transitioned to becoming a king's man and the king is adding/converting towards old gods.

• Mel cannot see Stannis anymore, and she sees the avatars of Bran and Bloodraven who see her. Ghost of High Heart explains in the Riverlands to Thoros he cannot see anything in his fires on High Heart, because the hill belongs to the Old Gods. The same applies to the North: the North belongs to the old gods (Bran and Bloodraven and the numerous CotF greenseers). That's why Mel cannot see him. She's locked out.
• Mel taught Stannis how to see stuff in the flames. Asha observes him staring at bonfires and beacon fires, but she has the impression he's not actually seeing much at all either, or not anymore by the time they're at the lakes. This "not seeing in fires anymore" makes Stannis more reliant on other forms of information. We can infer Stannis doesn't see anything in the flames either for the time being, for the very first thing Mel would have taught Stannis is to look for threats upon his life first (just like she does). He doesn't act against Karstark as a traitor until he had his meeting with Tycho Nestoris who relayed him the info that Jon got from Alys of their intended betrayal. Despite the fact that Karstark joined their position a few chapters before that.
• Stannis is surrounded by treemen: the mountain clans used foliage as camouflage during the attack on Deepwood Motte. During the March to WF, those same mountain clans end up surrounding Stannis' own troops: van and main, going back and fro.
• The farther they march, the less kindle material they have, the smaller the fires become. And when they finally execute men to be burned alive, those fires do not burn either the men or even the wooden stakes completely. Some of the wood is left untouched.
• Around this time we have a discussion between R'hllorists and clansmen of the mountains (Wull) about the powers. Wull says the old gods reign here, and Asha thinks to herself she's starting to believe it.
• Inside the tower where Theon hangs from the wall, Stannis has to burn peat (instead of wood) for heat (no flame at all) and candles. Asha tells him to execute Theon the Stark way.

This all points to the greenseers working to convert Stannis into believing the power of the Old Gods is real, more powerful than the red god. The question is whether it will be a full conversion or will Stannis use both powers? Based on who he was in aCoK and at the start of aDwD we might think he'll never fully relinquish the red firegod. He may not believe in gods, but he believes in Mel having power. Except Mel's power can barely come to his aid in this hour at the Ice Lakes. Instead the Old Gods will come to his aid, via Theon in front of a weirwood.

No matter who you believe the author to be of the Pink Letter, Stannis not having the glamored sword anymore is enormously significant in this conversion context, especially if he gave it up himself on purpose to make Roose believe that Stannis died and was defeated.

When Stannis gifts Mance-glamored-into-Rattleshirt to Jon in the war strategy meeting, Mel assures Jon that as long as Mance wears the ruby he is bound to her blood and soul. Sure, the ruby is used for the glamor spell that Mel casts and controls, but it also binds Mance himself to her. She is Mance's master in a sense. This tells us not only someting about Mel's power over Mance at the time, but also Stannis. He carries a glamored sword around. And George mentions this only once, in the very first chapter where we meet Stannis after the burning of the Seven at Dragonstone: Catelyn's chapter where Stannis and Renly parlay. Catelyn notices that Stannis' sword has a big square ruby in the hilt. So, each time that Mel asks or suggests something to Stannis (think aSoS: asking for Edric Storm), she's not just using manipulative stage tricks with leeches or arguments. She's magically pressuring Stannis to comply to her will. It's not a complete power over Stannis, but some and it can wear Stannis down over time. Davos watches Mel's ruby light up several times during their debates over Edric Storm with Stannis for example. There's also an instance where Jon informs Stannis and Mel he intends to send Gilly "and her son" away from the Wall. Mel arguments to Jon that it would be such a pity to take a milk brother and wet nurse away from Mance's son. Verbally she directs her words to Jon, but her ruby glows when she says this, so she's pressuring Stannis magically to agree with her argument. Jon then informs Stannis that Gilly was wife AND daughter to Craster, and the horrified Stannis agrees with Jon it's better to be rid of Gilly.

So, when Stannis separates himself from the glamored sword and its big square ruby, he is in fact liberating himself from the last magical hold of Mel onto him. Events after Theon's chapter in the tower at the ice lakes convinced Stannis imo to sever the magical bond with Mel.

By the time that Massey sails for Braavos, he'll be a king's man, not a queen's man anymore, and as the king went green, so will he. This seems apt, as I would not associate Braavos to a "red fire terrain" either.

It's not Mel's chapter that is crucial to understand what the ruby is really for (the glamor is the carrot that Mel uses to get people to agree to be her slave). Jon's war meeting chapter with Stannis is actually the key clue. And the fact that Mel says this so openly in front of Stannis reveals that she considers Stannis her slave enough by then to not care about Stannis being ablt to infer that he too is bound in soul and blood to her by carrying the glamored sword with the ruby.

No wonder Bran and Bloodraven mock her: her vanity and hubris in how secure she was in being the most powerful, the lure of the Wall's vast amounts of magic, made her decide to not go with Stannis.

[Springwatch]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Stannis is transitioning from red fire to green or at least adding green. He was a queen's men but transitioned to becoming a king's man and the king is adding/converting towards old gods. [...]

Terrific post, with points I find hard to argue against, but still, taking cyvasse as a model, I believe that the red-green-blue scheme has ended its active stage and now in winter black and white will make all the running. Stannis the blue-eyed king with his red and green followers should really resolve into either black or white. I'd guess black, because of Stannis' imagery of being burned out, and burned is blackened in these books.

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

So, when Stannis separates himself from the glamored sword and its big square ruby, he is in fact liberating himself from the last magical hold of Mel onto him. Events after Theon's chapter in the tower at the ice lakes convinced Stannis imo to sever the magical bond with Mel.

Genius idea. I could see this happening.

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

No wonder Bran and Bloodraven mock her: her vanity and hubris in how secure she was in being the most powerful, the lure of the Wall's vast amounts of magic, made her decide to not go with Stannis.

Not yet they don't. I like Mel, she's fun to think about. She's not really vain, except on the very material point of being an instrument of god - I won't call that hubristic until we see a bit more of the gods.

She is incredibly fatalistic. She lets Stannis go to war twice. Jon Snow is another character she's interested in, but she lets him risk his life if that's what he wants. She lets a good handful of kingsblood characters fly out of her reach. She doesn't worry about the fakeness of Lightbringer, or her rituals, powders and glamours. She trusts completely in R'hllor in a way most humans wouldn't find possible, and for that reason I do believe she is extraordinary in both age and experience.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

One more thought on light and color: there are a few in-story instances of white light separating into distinct colors, via the Faith's crystals that refract light into the colors of the rainbow.

Taking inspiration from such symbolism, Renly created his own rainbow guard as opposed to the white kingsguard. What I find interesting is that Renly is granted so much Garth symbolism here. Might the separate colored guardians hold some deeper significance for the magical plot? This is, after all, the setup for his death at the hands of his fire-Garth brother, who kills him with a shadow, then diminishes into the Grey King. Do the separate colors represent a fractious and ineffective collective?

I don't know what that deeper significance is, but I'll be re-reading such passages with these thoughts in mind.

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I don't know what that deeper significance is, but I'll be re-reading such passages with these thoughts in mind.

Someone else, I think it was Seams, pointed out on another thread that Renly was missing an indigo guard. The shadow 'fills' the missing slot. The rainbow guard was ineffective because the rainbow was not complete.

Interestingly enough, I found this line in relation to Renly.

Quote

A grey army, Catelyn thought. Grey men on grey horses beneath grey banners. As they sat their horses waiting, Renly's shadow knights pointed their lances upward, so she rode through a forest of tall naked trees, bereft of leaves and life.

Surely it should be Stannis who has the shadow knights?

[kissdbyfire]

5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

This all points to the greenseers working to convert Stannis into believing the power of the Old Gods is real, more powerful than the red god. The question is whether it will be a full conversion or will Stannis use both powers?
 

And IMO it doesn’t even matter all that much whether he becomes a true believer or just pragmatically acknowledges the power of the Old Gods, as he’s done w/ Red Rahloo. 

5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Based on who he was in aCoK and at the start of aDwD we might think he'll never fully relinquish the red firegod. He may not believe in gods, but he believes in Mel having power.
 

Yes, I always chuckle a bit when people quote Noye and go, ‘Stannis is iron, he’ll break before he bends!’. Because we’ve seen Stannis bend and yes, evolve. And as a side note, we see this happen a lot, not just in regards to Noye’s take on Stannis. Whenever a generally well-liked character says something emphatically, and especially if said character is either old or perceived to be someone wise or both, people tend to take their words at face value. This happens with quite a few characters, like Old Nan and maester Aemon. 
But I digress… I’m not so sure Stannis would never fully turn away from RR. Yes, he’s really not a true believer, he’s just being pragmatic b/c he sees Mel’s power in action. But here he may have the opportunity to witness the power of the Old Gods firsthand. 
And it wouldn’t require true devotion, only the same kind of acknowledgement of power. 

5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Except Mel's power can barely come to his aid in this hour at the Ice Lakes. Instead the Old Gods will come to his aid, via Theon in front of a weirwood.

Yes!

[Phylum of Alexandria]

14 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Someone else, I think it was Seams, pointed out on another thread that Renly was missing an indigo guard. The shadow 'fills' the missing slot. The rainbow guard was ineffective because the rainbow was not complete.

I did notice the missing indigo, but figured maybe indigo wasn't conventionally distinguished enough to get its color. But upon reading your comment, I notice now that indigo is the color of the Undying and their Shade trees. Now my suspicions that shadow magic, Shade trees, and the cataclysm that befell Asshai are connected are stronger than ever.

18 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Surely it should be Stannis who has the shadow knights?

Yes, this seems closer to the description of both the kingsguard and the Others as shadows of those they guard.

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Not yet they don't. I like Mel, she's fun to think about. She's not really vain, except on the very material point of being an instrument of god - I won't call that hubristic until we see a bit more of the gods.

She believes she can alter what she foresees happening in the future. She has failed at doing so far since aCoK. And when she fails, she never questions her actions and beliefs that may have promoted it (Renly's murder leading to the Tyrells siding with Lannisters, and Garland wearing Renly's armor). 

Yes believing yourself to THE chosen instrument of a god is an ego-stroking vanity. I equate it to spiritualists who believe they were the head priestess in an Egyptian temple in a former life. (Egypt seemed to have been overrun with those methinks)

And then there is her attitude of "Oh my imagine what I could do with all that magic of the Wall!". That is hubris: her belief that all that magic that is available is for her to be used at her own discretion, a dsicretion she never questions. Yeah, I can imagine what she would do if she were to tap into all that magic: bring the Wall down most likely.

But she means well.

 

[kissdbyfire]

8 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I equate it to spiritualists who believe they were the head priestess in an Egyptian temple in a former life. (Egypt seemed to have been overrun with those methinks)

Spot on!

8 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

But she means well.

Road to hell and all that, and that’s a common issue w/ religious zealots. 

[Springwatch]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

She believes she can alter what she foresees happening in the future. She has failed at doing so far since aCoK. And when she fails, she never questions her actions and beliefs that may have promoted it (Renly's murder leading to the Tyrells siding with Lannisters, and Garland wearing Renly's armor). 

Qyburn says prophecies can be averted, but I can't remember Mel saying it. Seems unlikely, when she advises Stannis that the leeches can't change his destiny in the war of the five kings.

Besides, what failure? She says flat out it's not her mission to put another king on the throne. Renly's death gifted Stannis an army, and the Tyrells were hostile anyway. If it hadn't been Garlan at KL, it would have been Renly and his army, and Stannis could have suffered an even worse defeat. Even death.

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes believing yourself to THE chosen instrument of a god is an ego-stroking vanity. I equate it to spiritualists who believe they were the head priestess in an Egyptian temple in a former life. (Egypt seemed to have been overrun with those methinks)

Spiritualism isn't a fair analogy for religion in a high fantasy novel, though - R'hllor might not be a classic god, but he/it is something. The legend of the Long Night is probably something too. So it may turn out Mel is justified. Or not - but it's not vanity, because she doesn't need anyone's admiration, and not hubris because she's doing it for the god not herself.

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

And then there is her attitude of "Oh my imagine what I could do with all that magic of the Wall!". That is hubris: her belief that all that magic that is available is for her to be used at her own discretion, a dsicretion she never questions. Yeah, I can imagine what she would do if she were to tap into all that magic: bring the Wall down most likely.

But she means well.

I somehow doubt GRRM will let Mel save the world, given all the human sacrifice and all, but at this stage of the story, she's looking fine. She thinks the world needs saving, and so do we.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Qyburn says prophecies can be averted, but I can't remember Mel saying it. Seems unlikely, when she advises Stannis that the leeches can't change his destiny in the war of the five kings.

But the leeches and all that was just a scam to convince Stannis of how ‘powerful’ she is.

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Besides, what failure? She says flat out it's not her mission to put another king on the throne. Renly's death gifted Stannis an army, and the Tyrells were hostile anyway. If it hadn't been Garlan at KL, it would have been Renly and his army, and Stannis could have suffered an even worse defeat. Even death.

So basically nothing really to do w/ her visions & power? I’m really asking b/c I’m not sure what you’re getting at here…

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Spiritualism isn't a fair analogy for religion in a high fantasy novel, though - R'hllor might not be a classic god, but he/it is something.

Are we sure of that? I’m not. There may be ways of tapping into magical sources, and assigning power to a random name is not that hard or that unbelievable. 

 

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

The legend of the Long Night is probably something too. So it may turn out Mel is justified.
 

I do believe all these old legends will play a part. But mostly in giving clues irt what’s to come. IMO there’ll be no NK 2.0 or any of that. 

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Or not - but it's not vanity, because she doesn't need anyone's admiration, and not hubris because she's doing it for the god not herself.

I disagree here. I think it’s 100% hubris. She’s being arrogant about how much she knows, how much power she has. She says she’s doing it for Red Rahloo, but there’s a good chunk that says she’s doing it for herself as well. Maybe not to benefit from it directly but just so she can go all, ‘I told ya!’ Or ‘I tried to warn you’. 
And that becomes quite clear when she thinks about how the display of power is important, how the pageantry matters, and how she doesn’t want anyone know how much her magicking costs her.  

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

I somehow doubt GRRM will let Mel save the world, given all the human sacrifice and all,

Not just the sacrifices, but the zealotry. Mostly the zealotry. Yeah, as enjoyable as her PoV was and her delusion is, she’s not going to be the hero in this story.

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

but at this stage of the story, she's looking fine. She thinks the world needs saving, and so do we.

Is she? I think she’s looking worse by the day, and likely to look even worse in TWoW. 
The world does need saving, but Mel’s defo not the person who’s going to do it. She’ll likely become quite antagonistic in the near future.