UK Politics: It's Time To Think The Unthinkable But This Lot Can't Even Think The Thinkable

[Heartofice]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64279654

Quote

Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer has said the NHS must reform in order to survive. 

He told the BBC the NHS should always be free at the point of use but there was also a role for the private sector, including to help clear waiting lists. 

He also proposed allowing patients to make self-referrals for conditions like back pain to cut bureaucracy.

Fucking Tory Cun… oh wait what??

[Spockydog]

8 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64279654

Fucking Tory Cun… oh wait what??

No, you're absolutely right. Dude is basically Diet Tory.

 

[Spockydog]

Here he is, during his leadership election, telling the world that his dying mum made him promise not to privatize the NHS. 

What a cunt.

 

[Spockydog]

No police investigation?

 

[Spockydog]

Last one from me....

 

[Raja]

The strangest part about this is you can refer yourself to the physio on the NHS depending on the physio without having to see the GP ( Area dependent, of course)

The crux of the problem is this - medicine has too much information asymmetry between the provider and the patient for patients to refer themselves to whomever they want, 95 percent of people have no idea how their body works and GPs are invaluable in not just triaging these patients to appropriate services, but also treating conditions that do not need to be seen in the hospital.

In addition, we just do not have the staff for patients to just go see a specialist - it adds another pressure that the NHS cannot deal with.

Labour's position that should be reform & funding the NHS, I wouldn't have an issue with that but just reform will get you nowhere. You get the service that you pay for, and that's what we've had for the last 10 years.

[Spockydog]

He talks about bloated NHS bureaucracy, and says anyone who has tried to get a GP appointment will know exactly what he means. 

Wut? 

This has nohing to do with bureaucracy. It's the shortage of GPs. We have almost 2000 fewer than 2015.

And as for the private sector? No. Just no. Profits and shareholder dividends should he nowhere near public health. 

[Werthead]

7 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

This has nohing to do with bureaucracy. It's the shortage of GPs. We have almost 2000 fewer than 2015.

Also, an increasingly older population dealing a multitude of health concerns that never used to exist because relatively few people lived into their 80s or 90s, but lots more do now, and the sheer number of people entering those ages is going to get enormous.

When we come out of this boomer-driven curve, things should get ease off (by dint of them dying off from old age, which is grim but accurate), but that's going to take 20+ years. In the meantime, buckle up.

[Poobah]

1 hour ago, Raja said:

The strangest part about this is you can refer yourself to the physio on the NHS depending on the physio without having to see the GP ( Area dependent, of course)

The crux of the problem is this - medicine has too much information asymmetry between the provider and the patient for patients to refer themselves to whomever they want, 95 percent of people have no idea how their body works and GPs are invaluable in not just triaging these patients to appropriate services, but also treating conditions that do not need to be seen in the hospital.

In addition, we just do not have the staff for patients to just go see a specialist - it adds another pressure that the NHS cannot deal with.

Labour's position that should be reform & funding the NHS, I wouldn't have an issue with that but just reform will get you nowhere. You get the service that you pay for, and that's what we've had for the last 10 years.

I do think you're right, but at the same time the experience I've had - of having my problems dismissed, put off, and minimised by a GP - is not an uncommon one and I think there are a lot of frustrated people who have had to deal with GPs somewhere between overworked / under-resourced through to incompetent / think they know better than their patient gatekeeping treatment they need. It's not that I'm unsympathetic, I know there is a severe tory-created resource shortage, and you have to play the odds but for every 9 patients you tell to fuck off on a 90% there's one that you're wrong about who ends up in hospital a few months later. So I understand why Starmer may think this is a vote winner.

 

[Which Tyler]

Point of order

"Vote winner" =/= "Good policy"

 

I'd also back up Raja's point that you can already self-refer to physio, and add that I'd trust someone who deals with back pain as 90% of the patient load to be better able to pick up back pain related red flags than a GP anyway (remember, physios ARE trained in diagnosis [and that training is easily increased], including red flags - whether they're authorised to do anything about it or not).
GPs as a whole are pretty much useless for back pain.
Dr Clarke just chose a really bad example.

[Heartofice]

The current system of scrambling at 8:30 to get an appointment from a GP is pure insanity and anything we can do to remove workload from them and find other approaches should be supported 

[Spockydog]

Moar GPs! 

[Raja]

1 hour ago, Poobah said:

I do think you're right, but at the same time the experience I've had - of having my problems dismissed, put off, and minimised by a GP - is not an uncommon one and I think there are a lot of frustrated people who have had to deal with GPs somewhere between overworked / under-resourced through to incompetent / think they know better than their patient gatekeeping treatment they need.

I don't disagree with this, as I do no think GPs or doctors in general are infalliable, and they will certainly get things wrong. I think this is a system issue, in that *all* doctors do this, including the speacialists that people see.

We do not have enough ortho surgeons for people to start referring their back pains to these surgeons directly, especially as *so* much of back pain does not need these surgeons, it needs a GP or ED clinician, I do not know what specifically physios see, to be fair. Same applies for almost every other type of speaciality, routine clinic appointments for lots of services are *months* away - what do we think happens when you have direct referrals?

I can see why he thinks it might win votes, as there is generally *a lot* of frustration when it comes to GPs, but I don't really think it's good policy - I have an open mind though when it comes to NHS reform as a general idea - part of this involves listening to front line clinicians, and Streeting & Labour aren't doing that.

I'm sorry you've had a bad experience though, dismissing people's problems as nothing is something that one has to constantly guard against.

[Raja]

Labour & Starmer are looking for quick fixes - and they are not going to work.

[Derfel Cadarn]

3 hours ago, Spockydog said:

No, you're absolutely right. Dude is basically Diet Tory.

 

You and HoI agreeing on politics is surely a breach of one of the seals of the apocalypse

[Heartofice]

11 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

You and HoI agreeing on politics is surely a breach of one of the seals of the apocalypse

I would never go so far as to say we are agreeing. 

[Derfel Cadarn]

2 hours ago, Poobah said:

I do think you're right, but at the same time the experience I've had - of having my problems dismissed, put off, and minimised by a GP - is not an uncommon one and I think there are a lot of frustrated people who have had to deal with GPs somewhere between overworked / under-resourced through to incompetent / think they know better than their patient gatekeeping treatment they need. It's not that I'm unsympathetic, I know there is a severe tory-created resource shortage, and you have to play the odds but for every 9 patients you tell to fuck off on a 90% there's one that you're wrong about who ends up in hospital a few months later. So I understand why Starmer may think this is a vote winner.

 

I can sympathise with this. My persistence symptoms just over 10 years ago were largely dismissed, investigated only with a blood test, and prescribed peppermint tablets.

I lost patience after months and exaggerated somewhat, easentially claiming blood in my stools (not the case). One colonoscopy and referral to gastro dept later, and I was diagnosed with Crohn’s disease.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 hours ago, Spockydog said:

And as for the private sector? No. Just no. Profits and shareholder dividends should he nowhere near public health. 

Stupid dog lover, it's called freedumb!!! The Freedumb to get worse care so some rich prick can cheat a little more on their taxes. Now shut up and enjoy it.

[Raja]

9 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

I can sympathise with this. My persistence symptoms just over 10 years ago were largely dismissed,

Yeah, we're not great when it comes to younger patients specifically as there is a temptation to think younger people don't get sick.

[Raja]

More here

It's also not just about costs, but people should read this thread.