UK Politics: It's Time To Think The Unthinkable But This Lot Can't Even Think The Thinkable

[Varysblackfyre321]

16 hours ago, ants said:

Anyone British who is truly concerned about this should be signing up as labour members and pushing for progressive candidates. Is there any good reason for any adult transperson to not be a member of the labour party? People want change, but then won't do anything about it. 

This rational only works if labour shows itself to some degree be better on trans issues than the tories.

Even apathy would be preferable to active regressivism on trans rights which tories seemed to begin now moving off from simple obstruction of policies that would improve the lives of trans people.

But if labour joins in on the moral panic well why not just try infiltrating the tories? 

[BigFatCoward]

We really need to get these stories about police officers being absolutely horrific out in one go.  The drip drip drip is doing my head in, another nonce, another one, working in schools FFS. 

[Heartofice]

11 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yeah that sounds awesome. What’s your problem with that good thing if you have one?

Sounds reasonable. I can understand perhaps the fear if we talking perhaps medical intervention being allowed—but for matters preventing misgendering on legal documentation such as birth and death certificates.

In isolation this change (lowering the age limit) might not be problematic and could be considered a good thing. However this change is not entirely neutral, nor is it purely an administrative matter. It comes against a background in which there has been a great deal of controversy and concern around just how gender identity services have been treating children with gender dysphoria.

The Cass review has put a spot light on the way children have been treated in the past, because there has been a sharp increase in the number of people reporting as being trans and a real lack of evidence behind many of the treatments by practitioners on children.

NHS implementation of Cass review guidelines
 

Quote

1. A significant and sharp rise in referrals
In 2021/22 there were over 5,000 referrals into the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) run by the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust. This compares to just under 250 referrals in 2011/12.

2. Marked changes in the types of patients being referred which are not well understood
There has been a dramatic change in the case-mix of referrals from predominantly birth-registered males to predominantly birth-registered females presenting with gender incongruence in early teen years. Additionally, a significant number of children are also presenting with neurodiversity and other mental health needs and risky behaviours which requires careful consideration and needs to be better understood.

3. Scarce and inconclusive evidence to support clinical decision making
This has led to a lack of clinical consensus and polarised opinion on what the best model of care for children and young people experiencing gender incongruence and dysphoria should be; and a lack of evidence to support families in making informed decisions about interventions that may have life-long consequences.

4. Long waiting times for initial assessment and significant external scrutiny and challenge surrounding the clinical approach and operational capacity at GIDS
This has contributed to the current service being unable to meet the scale of rising demand.

 Cass Report 
 

Quote

 ‘primary and secondary care staff have told us that they feel under pressure to adopt an unquestioning affirmative approach and that this is at odds with the standard process of clinical assessment and diagnosis that they have been trained to undertake in all other clinical encounters’ (para. 1.14) and that ‘GPs have expressed concern about being pressurised to prescribe puberty blockers or feminising/masculinising hormones after these have been initiated by private providers’

An example being the closure of the Tavistock Clinic was in part due to many of these failings and affirmative approach to gender identity problems, not questioning whether someone is or is not trans, but reinforcing it continually. 

There have been other examples, with the charity Mermaids sending breast binders to children, which could be considered another form of affirmation.

The main point here is that this form of affirmation may not be appropriate for many children and maybe lead to children making life altering decisions, which could be scarring permanently due to being locked into one path without being given the time and freedom to discover themselves. 

NHS guidelines for adolescents note that they need to be mindful that this could be a transient phase. They also state that social transition to changing gender should only happen in cases where:
 

Quote

Gender dysphoria has been diagnosed, is consistent and persistent; AND
• Associated needs and risks have been considered and are being addressed
or supported; AND
• The young person expresses a clear wish to affirm their gender transition
and fully understands the implications of affirming a social transition
(informed consent); AND
• The proposed clinical approach is necessary for the alleviation, or prevention
of, clinically significant distress or impairment in social functioning in the
individual.

The important part here is that changing your birth or death certificate is not a neutral admin action, but a form of social transition, confirmation by the state, an affirmative act that pushing children down the path of transition. From the Cass report:

Quote

Social transition – this may not be thought of as an intervention or treatment, because it is not something that happens within health services. However, it is important to view it as an active intervention because it may have significant effects on the child or young person in terms of their psychological functioning.64,65 There are different views on the benefits versus the harms of early social transition. Whatever position one takes, it is important to acknowledge that it is not a neutral act, and better information is needed about outcomes

So if you combine this act of social transition and affirmation, with a background of enormous increases in children reporting themselves as trans, poor quality treatment that did little to differentiate between those with genuine gender dysphoria and those with other emotional issues, and then you basically remove all safeguards by getting rid of the need for any sort of diagnosis for gender dysphoria when applying for a GRC, then you start to create a cocktail of very poor policies that could lead to children making uninformed and permanent life changing decisions without proper support or consideration.

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

30 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

In isolation this change (lowering the age limit) might not be problematic and could be considered a good thing

Okay so you can’t give a good criticism of it other than vaguely fear mongering about it feeding into some social contagion.

 

30 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

It comes against a background in which there has been a great deal of controversy and concern around just how gender identity services have been treating children with gender dysphoria.

Yeah there certainly has been massive  moral panic peddled by far right agitators since hating gay people got less popular.

I’m reminded of Matt Walsh confidently stating millions of kids are getting transitioned and then getting debunked by joe Rogan.

30 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

because there has been a sharp increase in the number of people reporting as being trans a

There’s with an increase of gays, lesbians, interracial couples since being those things became less hazardous to one’s social standing and literal safety.

30 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

An example being the closure of the Tavistock Clinic was in part due to many of these failings and affirmative approach to gender identity problems, not questioning whether someone is or is not trans, but reinforcing it continually. 

Hmm yes I see it’s very important for you to be able to question every purported trans person’s stated identity in all circumstances.

30 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

There have been other examples, with the charity Mermaids sending breast binders to children, which could be considered another form of affirmation.

Hey if a 15 year old trans boy wants a breast binder let him have it.

Tell me do you think it’s wrong for people to even refer to trans boy as a boy until he gets a gender recognition certificate?

Until he gets the certificate is your preference for continued misgendering?

30 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

The important part here is that changing your birth or death certificate is not a neutral admin action,

Of course it’s an overwhelming positive one.

 

30 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

that could lead to children making uninformed and permanent life changing decisions without proper support or consideration.

We’re talking about changing a part of a person’s birth certificate in regards to their sex.

You speak as if we’re literally talking about sexual reassignment surgery on 11 year old boys because they said they liked Barbie when we’re talking about  16 year olds changing some documentation that’s misgendering them.

 

[Heartofice]

Ok well, I tried. I put in a lot of reading material for you there, if that is the best you can do in terms of response then that is really up to you. Don't say I didn't try.

[Varysblackfyre321]

11 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Ok well, I tried.

It’s telling how you wouldn’t answer whether or not you think trans boys should be referred to as girls until they get a gender recognition certificate.

At least on an individual social level.

11 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Don't say I didn't try.

Yes you’ve mostly used Flowery language, mixed in with vague mongering without actually giving any hard claims on the harm of making it easier for 16 year old to make legal documentation of them not misgender them.

I’m fine calling trans boy a boy, and I think most of the time you’d do a lot more harm to him calling them a girl.

[Spockydog]

One has to wonder why non-trans people get so worked up and spend so much intellectual capital discussing the subject.

What difference does it make to these people? How does this issue impact their lives?

It doesn't. Not one bit.

So why? Why do people like my mum get so worked up about trans issues?

Hmmm.

 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

Sigh, you know I think there are people  who genuinely wary of puberty blockers, and hormones being given to minors for reasons other than pure transphobia.

I think their fears are not rationally justified. But it doesn’t have to be pure bigotry.

fear mongering on social  transitioning(let your kid wear a dress and refer to them by the pronouns they want etc etc)  is just..

 

38 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

One has to wonder why non-trans people get so worked up and spend so much intellectual capital discussing the subject.

What difference does it make to these people? How does this issue impact their lives?

It doesn't. Not one bit.

So why? Why do people like my mum get so worked up about trans issues?

Hmmm.

 

 

eh one could care about something that doesn’t directly affect them.

The moral policing that goes on in Iran will probably never affect me or you.  I’m still hoping the protesters against the government are successful and I think you do too.

 

[Spockydog]

I think you missed my point. 

I was talking about the people like Graham Linehan... 

[Spockydog]

So that's a yes then. 

 

 

[Spockydog]

 

 

[karaddin]

On 1/25/2023 at 11:20 PM, Spockydog said:

I think you missed my point. 

I was talking about the people like Graham Linehan... 

But it did effect him, iirc his villain origin story was that he wanted to fuck a trans woman (and cheat on his then wife) and she rejected him. 

[Heartofice]

Don't really keep up with what Linehan says or does, but it's clear he's become increasingly deranged, but then that is understandable given that he's gone from being responsible for some of the best comedy the UK has put out in the last 20 years to being a crackpot on the internet. I don't think he really takes responsibility for that, because it is in part his own behaviour and extreme takes, although he has been hounded by extremists so hard to know how much one thing feeds the other.

But then the whole topic is often completely deranged, with extremists on both ends. 

[Zorral]

Britain’s Cautionary Tale of Self-Destruction

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/25/opinion/uk-economic-decline-nhs.html

Quote

 

.... But the descent of Britain is in many ways more dramatic. By the end of next year, the average British family will be less well off than the average Slovenian one, according to a recent analysis by John Burn-Murdoch at The Financial Times; by the end of this decade, the average British family will have a lower standard of living than the average Polish one.

On the campaign trail and in office, promising a new prosperity, Boris Johnson used to talk incessantly about “leveling up.” But the last dozen years of uninterrupted Tory rule have produced, in economic terms, something much more like a national flatlining. In a 2020 academic analysis by Nicholas Crafts and Terence C. Mills, recently publicized by the economic historian Adam Tooze, the two economists asked whether the ongoing slowdown in British productivity was unprecedented. Their answer: not quite, but that it was certainly the worst in the last 250 years, since the very beginning of the Industrial Revolution. Which is to say: To find a fitting analogue to the British economic experience of the last decade, you have to reach back to a time before the arrival of any significant growth at all, to a period governed much more by Malthusianism, subsistence-level poverty and a nearly flat economic future. By all accounts, things have gotten worse since their paper was published. According to “Stagnation Nation,” a recent report by a think tank, there are eight million young Brits in the work force today who have not experienced sustained wage growth at all. ....

 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

8 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Don't really keep up with what Linehan says or does,

So maybe don’t immediately pontificate about “extremists” pressuring him in engaging in bad behavior? 

8 hours ago, Heartofice said:

topic is often completely deranged, with extremists on both ends. 

Both sides are not morally equal.

neither are the “extremists” edit usually edit

.

@Heartofice I’m sorry I can’t help you understand something if you don’t articulate what you’re confusion is.

[ants]

On 1/24/2023 at 6:36 PM, mormont said:

Yes. They'd face open hostility and discrimination in some branches. They'd be in a party whose leader is equivocating on their rights. That would be a tremendously difficult experience for a group of people who face a high degree of stress in their daily lives already.

 

Unless there is a requirement to show up for meetings or to interact with fellow members, most of these could be got away with. Given the goal is to change the leaders position by influencing who is leader and who the representatives are, the second is kind of a moot point. 

On 1/24/2023 at 6:36 PM, mormont said:

Also, it's not actually up to trans people to make sure that things like human rights are important to the Labour party. Don't put the onus on them.

In a perfect world, of course not. In a perfect world of course there wouldn't be these attacks either.

In this world, if they want to force political change and change in behaviours the easiest way would be they (and they're supporters) en mass joining the labour party and starting to vote for strongly pro-trans members to run for parliament. Simply the threat of sitting members losing preselection would probably force change. 

On 1/24/2023 at 6:36 PM, mormont said:

Having to pick the lesser of two evils sucks. Having to campaign for basic respect sucks more. I agree with you that in the end, many trans people will be forced to hold their nose and vote Labour because they have little effective choice. But I won't criticise, even by implication, anyone who feels unable to and neither should anyone else in my view. And the above remark comes close to that.

The current political reality is that in most seats it will be a choice between the Tories and Labour, with a handful being Tories vs. Lib Dems. Unless there is change, at the moment there really is no better solution than voting Labour. 

However, as I said initially, the actual best way to push change is to drive changes in who is preselected for one of those parties. Given their stances and sizes, the best option would be Labour. There would already be many supporters. 

What I am showing, is that if they and their supporters actually take part in the political process, they could easily create change. The number of trans members of the population, let alone when you add their supporters, would be more than enough to create a significant voting block within Labour and force change. The problem is very few people do take part in the political process, and then they have the options of voting Tory or Tory lite at the election.  

The conversation started around what options there are. This is a real one, it exists, and the steps are not particularly hard. 

On 1/24/2023 at 6:36 PM, mormont said:

ETA - you seem also to be suggesting that less than 20% of Labour members are already big supporters of trans rights, by the way. You might want to rethink that.

That was an error of writing. I meant to include "parliamentary" in front of "member". i.e. if 20% of the caucus were strongly pro-trans and would make a stink over legislation/policy I don't think Stamer would piss them off. 

On 1/25/2023 at 11:04 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

This rational only works if labour shows itself to some degree be better on trans issues than the tories.

Even apathy would be preferable to active regressivism on trans rights which tories seemed to begin now moving off from simple obstruction of policies that would improve the lives of trans people.

But if labour joins in on the moral panic well why not just try infiltrating the tories? 

This rational is all about changing labour policy. Sign up to be members, push for candidates for preselection who are pro-trans, and cause a shift within the party. 

The hardest bit would probably be finding people who are pro-trans, good candidates, and willing to run. That isn't a simple exercise to convince people to do so.

The main reason not to infiltrate the Tories is that Labour would already have many sympathetic to their position. Whereas the Tory members are clearly rabidly against it. The likelihood of finding a candidate who wouldn't be mauled in the preselection battles is pretty small. 

[kiko]

What happens when a single issue movement is trying to capture a party agenda in a FPTP system has been demonstrated by Momentum. Or by the Euro sceptics if that's a movement or by whatever you call what happens in the republican party.

[ants]

On 1/25/2023 at 9:31 PM, Heartofice said:

The important part here is that changing your birth or death certificate is not a neutral admin action, but a form of social transition, confirmation by the state, an affirmative act that pushing children down the path of transition.

This is hugely disingenuous. It's not a neutral action on the behalf of the person seeking the change. It absolutely is from a government perspective. To equate this change with someone pressuring a person (and therefore being biased) is absurb. 

[ants]

7 minutes ago, kiko said:

What happens when a single issue movement is trying to capture a party agenda in a FPTP system has been demonstrated by Momentum. Or by the Euro sceptics if that's a movement or by whatever you call what happens in the republican party.

Yep. It works. 

But you have to be organised. 

[ants]

14 hours ago, Zorral said:

Britain’s Cautionary Tale of Self-Destruction

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/25/opinion/uk-economic-decline-nhs.html

As I've been saying, Britain is now poorer. This will unfortunately reduce the options for getting itself out of the mess its created.