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UK Politics: It's Time To Think The Unthinkable But This Lot Can't Even Think The Thinkable


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1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

It’s a quite frankly bizarre statement because for a start 98% of sexual assaults are carried out by men, not women. 

And what's the percentage of sexual assaults that are carried out by trans women upon women?  What's the percentage of sexual assaults carried out by men upon other men?  The only logic to your argument is that all people incarcerated due to sexual assaults should be in some type of isolated category.  Which..well, maybe you got a point there, but that has to do with a much larger conceptual issue on prisons.

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2 hours ago, mormont said:

It's wild that the only Royal who actually seems to have disappeared from public view and be perfectly happy with that is Edward.

ETA - although to be fair, I don't follow Royal affairs enough to know he's actually OK with it. Maybe he's like the Eric Trump of the Royal family, desperately trying to be relevant while the world is like 'oh yeah, there was another one, wasn't there?'

From vague memory (also not very interested in the royals), he and his wife left royal duties behind (without the media outcry H/M got) to go into private business.

This did not end well, so they (Edward and wife) returned to royal duties (rather than sign on for unemployment benefits I assume), and presumably keep their heads down hoping they don’t leap to the mind of whichever monarch decides to trim numbers.

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2 hours ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

The attempt to rehabilitate Prince Andrew continues. There’s been a few articles too of him perhaps contesting the Guiffee settlement. 

 



Printing a photo of two people in that bath is an interesting way to go about proving that two people couldn't possibly fit in that bath.

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2 hours ago, polishgenius said:



Printing a photo of two people in that bath is an interesting way to go about proving that two people couldn't possibly fit in that bath.

Some of the comments speculate that ‘missionary’ is the only position Torygraphs are aware of

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15 hours ago, Week said:

Wow, I had no idea that there was so much care and attention for the safety of prisoners. Is it something that you often discuss and care about frequently?

What is important for me and what I also often discuss is the safety and the rights of women (and yes for me this includes trans women).  Every law which endangers this by making e.g. prisons or safe houses less safe by opening them (accidentally) also to cis men predators is wrong.  I also do not think that we should just ignore this case of this rapist because "we are fighting for a larger good" I think there must be a way to support trans rights without endangering others and it is also in the interest of trans women to have countermeasures against men who pretend to be a trans women to endanger the vulnerable.

But this is the UK politics thread which is often deraled  by this issue  and this time by me, and so this is my last post about this here.

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1 hour ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

From vague memory (also not very interested in the royals), he and his wife left royal duties behind (without the media outcry H/M got) to go into private business.

This did not end well, so they (Edward and wife) returned to royal duties (rather than sign on for unemployment benefits I assume), and presumably keep their heads down hoping they don’t leap to the mind of whichever monarch decides to trim numbers.

For an Aussie republican I know way too much about this stuff but I remember that Sophie had to close her PR agency when she was the subject of a nasty sting by a tabloid reporter who posed as an Arab sheikh and recorded indiscreet comments by her and her business partner. Later I guess Ed and Soph got old and the vultures of the press found fresh meat to feast on.

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5 hours ago, mormont said:

ETA - although to be fair, I don't follow Royal affairs enough to know he's actually OK with it. Maybe he's like the Eric Trump of the Royal family, desperately trying to be relevant while the world is like 'oh yeah, there was another one, wasn't there?'

We mock Eric all the time. Tiffany is the forgotten one that spent years trying to stay away from the family shitshow, who only now is leaning into it and still is completely forgotten. 

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5 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Except that what you said in response to the idea of a trans person being sent to jail for rape is that ‘cis women rape women too’. It’s a quite frankly bizarre statement because for a start 98% of sexual assaults are carried out by men, not women. 

Here you go pulling this shit again, this is only relevant if you are including trans women in the category men. We're not. You don't get to misgender us and then treat us like we're a threat because of your misgendering. That's why it's relevant that for both cis women and trans women in a huge overwhelming majority of cases, they are the victims of rape not the perpetrators. A very small amount of both are exceptions and are rapists themselves, and should be treated the same.

The threat they pose to other women in a women's prison is a similar profile. And I absolutely think far more care should be taken to protect all inmates from sexual assault - be it men's or women's prisons. The state has a duty of care to protect people while they are under the states custody. But even women convicted of sexual assaults are probably less of a risk for sexually assaulting other prisoners than the guards that are meant to be carrying out that duty of care because that's how little of a shit any of our states give about actually carrying it out.

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Though here is a spin off idea: I can think of one category of British people who are statistically more likely to be sexual predators. And to have a general contempt of the law. And there are relatively few of them, so it would be practical to take special action to protect the rest of us from them.

I refer, of course, to Tory MPs.

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9 minutes ago, karaddin said:

they are the victims of rape not the perpetrators. 

It's astonishingly disappointing over the years listening to people say trans individuals are disproportionally involved in sexual assaults without them acknowledging they're the victims far more often than not. 

Quote

The threat they pose to other women in a women's prison is a similar profile. And I absolutely think far more care should be taken to protect all inmates from sexual assault - be it men's or women's prisons. The state has a duty of care to protect people while they are under the states custody. But even women convicted of sexual assaults are probably less of a risk for sexually assaulting other prisoners than the guards that are meant to be carrying out that duty of care because that's how little of a shit any of our states give about actually carrying it out.

More broadly, we let this go unnoticed too much. The crimes committed in prisons go far too ignored by the people who should be there to help and rehabilitate the inmates, and far too often they're allowed to commit serious crimes of their own because we as societies tend not to care. Frankly most people are complicit.

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16 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Here you go pulling this shit again, this is only relevant if you are including trans women in the category men. We're not. You don't get to misgender us and then treat us like we're a threat because of your misgendering. That's why it's relevant that for both cis women and trans women in a huge overwhelming majority of cases, they are the victims of rape not the perpetrators. A very small amount of both are exceptions and are rapists themselves, and should be treated the same.

My point here is that CIS women are incredibly unlikely to violent sex offenders, so to me it just seems to bizarre to even bring it up as a point of comparison. 
 

18 minutes ago, karaddin said:

The threat they pose to other women in a women's prison is a similar profile.

This is where I simply disagree, and the only way you can think this is true is to consider than there is literally no difference between a woman and a trans woman. There are some rather obvious differences.

21 minutes ago, karaddin said:

But even women convicted of sexual assaults are probably less of a risk for sexually assaulting other prisoners than the guards that are meant to be carrying out that duty of care because that's how little of a shit any of our states give about actually carrying it out.

This is just whataboutism I'm afraid.

 

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Please enlighten me what differences you're talking about which are actually relevant to the risk profile to other inmates.

And it's not whataboutism to ask for someone concern trolling over a single barely existent risk to a group of people to show at least some concern about other, very real and widespread risks for that same group. Or to phrase it differently, I'm saying your claimed concern for women inmates is full of shit, you're cynically exploiting the opportunity to smear trans women as both men and sexual predators without ever saying it outright.

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22 minutes ago, A wilding said:

Though here is a spin off idea: I can think of one category of British people who are statistically more likely to be sexual predators. And to have a general contempt of the law. And there are relatively few of them, so it would be practical to take special action to protect the rest of us from them.

I refer, of course, to Tory MPs.

Metropolitan police officers 'hold my beer'. 

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15 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

and far too often they're allowed to commit serious crimes of their own because we as societies tend not to care. Frankly most people are complicit.

Honestly I think "tend not to care" is the best case scenario, a lot of the time it's actively approved of as people think they deserve everything that happens to them as part of the punishment. The punishment is meant to be the loss of liberty for the duration of the sentence and the loss of life progression (ie income, experiences etc) that go with it. Nothing more than that, and the state is meant to ensure that's all it is.

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Just now, karaddin said:

Honestly I think "tend not to care" is the best case scenario, a lot of the time it's actively approved of as people think they deserve everything that happens to them as part of the punishment. The punishment is meant to be the loss of liberty for the duration of the sentence and the loss of life progression (ie income, experiences etc) that go with it. Nothing more than that, and the state is meant to ensure that's all it is.

Qft, some sections of society want prisons to be positively medieval. 

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3 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Please enlighten me what differences you're talking about which are actually relevant to the risk profile to other inmates.

 

A biologically male body complete with male genitalia is one obvious difference I can think of. 

 

5 minutes ago, karaddin said:

And it's not whataboutism to ask for someone concern trolling over a single barely existent risk to a group of people to show at least some concern about other, very real and widespread risks for that same group.

It is, saying ‘oh don’t worry about this one thing worry about another thing’ something which is not the point of discussion is very much about trying to deflect the conversation. But I can see full well all you are doing is parroting Owen Jones talking points here. 

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4 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Metropolitan police officers 'hold my beer'. 

It's been a rough...I actually have no sense of time anymore, however long it's been since that fuck kidnapped and murdered the woman using his badge and it turned out his nickname was "the rapist". Hopefully the skeletons are being emptied out rather than simply replaced.

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Just now, karaddin said:

It's been a rough...I actually have no sense of time anymore, however long it's been since that fuck kidnapped and murdered the woman using his badge and it turned out his nickname was "the rapist". Hopefully the skeletons are being emptied out rather than simply replaced.

The boss came out and said this week there is going to be 2 or 3 cases a week going to court of MPS officers, overwhelmingly for offences of VAWG (violence against women and girls). It's going to be a rocky year. 

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