UK Politics: It's Time To Think The Unthinkable But This Lot Can't Even Think The Thinkable

[Spockydog]

Q: When is a fascist not a fascist?

A: When it's an Israeli fascist.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

16 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Q: When is a fascist not a fascist?

A: When it's an Israeli fascist.

 

I would advise not comparing Jews to fascists. It's really the ultimate insult and an old narrative based around denying the Holocaust. 

Apartheid is fair game though. As a Jew it's hard not to deny the obvious comparisons. 

Fuck Netanyahu. I cannot believe he's back in power. What a disgrace. 

 

[Spockydog]

13 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I would advise not comparing Jews to fascists. It's really the ultimate insult and an old narrative based around denying the Holocaust. 

Apartheid is fair game though. As a Jew it's hard not to deny the obvious comparisons. 

Fuck Netanyahu. I cannot believe he's back in power. What a disgrace. 

 

It's not the ultimate insult. It is a statement of fact. And all this never mention the f-word in the same sentence as Israel is just some bullshit cooked up by the Israeli lobby to deflect and silence all valid criticism of the State of Israel.

So, yeah, of course the Holocaust happened. But I'm not one of those people that can ignore the genocidal treatment of the Palestinian people, just because it raises uncomfortable questions for Jewish people around the world.

Netanyahu is most definitely a fascist. As is the party he has gotten into bed with. 

And I repeat, the Holocaust definitely happened. 

ETA: Ty, what are we allowed call a Jewish or Israeli person who engages in the type of behaviour and discrimination that, everywhere else in the world, would be described as fascism?

Or are you trying to claim that this archetype does not exist in Israel?

 

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

11 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

But I'm not one of those people that can ignore the genocidal treatment of the Palestinian people, just because it raises uncomfortable questions for Jewish people around the world.

Like I've said before, both sides can point to genocides historically. It's a messy subject with no good answers unless everyone agrees to peace and I've explained how I think that can most realistically happen. It requires sacrifices for a number of parties and as of now they do not want to make them. 

For starters, how do you make peace with a group driven by a minority faction that essentially says every Jew should leave, be punished or die? Not exactly a great starting point.

Quote

Netanyahu is most definitely a fascist. As is the party he has gotten into bed with. 

He's a right wing thug and an authoritarian who supports an apartheid state. You don't need to call him a fascist. The point is implying Jews are the real Nazis. That's why it's such a slight that stings badly. You'll get nowhere going down that road. Comparing Israel today to South Africa of yesteryear, you can say, "Show me the lie" and have a winning hand. It might not be a big difference to you, but even the most liberal Jews in Israel cannot accept the Nazi comparisons and it should be obvious why that is.

[Spockydog]

So there is no such thing as an Israeli fascist, is that what you're saying? 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

4 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

So there is no such thing as an Israeli fascist, is that what you're saying? 

No. I'm saying there are interchangeable terms that mean generally the same thing, more or less, and calling Jews fascists is a great way to end the conversation which should not be the goal.

[Spockydog]

So what are we allowed to call these people? 

What word would you have used instead of fascist? 

[Spockydog]

Also, I never once used the term, Nazi. That was you. 

Also, Hitler did not invent fascism. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

12 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

So what are we allowed to call these people? 

What word would you have used instead of fascist? 

Like I said, call it an apartheid state. 

10 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Also, I never once used the term, Nazi. That was you. 

Also, Hitler did not invent fascism. 

Hitler believed in a number of conflicting ideologies. Mussolini was more consistent, but Jews don't hear the word fascism and think about him. It's synonymous with Nazi Germany and when a Jew is accused of being a fascist, they more likely than not will interrupt that you're calling them a Nazi, which is as bad as being called a kike. 

[Spockydog]

12 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Like I said, call it an apartheid state. 

But what would you call a Jewish individual who practises hate and all the other stuff fascists get up to?

I'm looking for one word here.

And, seriously, lol at not being able to recognise that these guys are bigger fascists than anything we have in Europe or the US.

Having said that, the Israeli Times seems to have called them what they are.

Ben Gvir’s policy goals: Going to extremes even Europe’s far right won’t touch
 

Quote

 

Moves advocated by Otzma Yehudit, such as deporting ‘disloyal’ citizens, go far beyond those of the continent’s ascendant nationalists and into areas where only neo-fascists tread

Among the most prominent policy positions laid out by Ben Gvir and Otzma Yehudit, either in the party’s manifesto or verbally, include encouraging Arab citizens of Israel to emigrate; annexing the West Bank without affording Palestinians the right to vote or other civil rights; imposing the death penalty for terrorists; using live fire against Palestinian rioters; immunity from prosecution for IDF soldiers for military actions they carry out; overhauling the legal system, crimping the High Court’s ability to strike down legislation and giving the government the ability to pack the bench with ideological compatriots.

 

 

 

 

[mormont]

[mod] I think we've had enough of this discussion. It's clearly an emotive topic, for good reason, and I'm absolutely sure that you two are not going to reach agreement on it here.

For now, I'm going to say this: a polite request has been made not to use a term that clearly some think is accurate, but others think is offensive. We are going to err on the side of not using it. You can certainly note that a politician has used it and you can criticise her party for disciplining her. But you, yourself, should not use it in the way objected to, please, out of respect for other users.

The mods will discuss it further amongst ourselves when we have time. But meantime, that's the position. [/mod]

[A Horse Named Stranger]

 

[Spockydog]

Quote

 

The International Monetary Fund could hardly have made it clearer this week. The chronic British disease, the underlying one that marks out the UK from the developed world crowd, is our low economic growth.

The IMF’s revised forecasts for 2023 certainly make stark reading for Rishi Sunak. Last week, at a cabinet awayday at Chequers, Sunak told colleagues they would be judged on five issues at the next election, of which one would be their success in expanding the economy. Yet just a few days later, the IMF revised its UK growth forecast down from the very modest 0.3% increase it posted three months ago to a 0.6% contraction.

With that new forecast, Sunak’s already steep route to electoral success got steeper and more slippery. But this isn’t Sunak’s problem alone. It’s a national challenge, affecting all of us. Strikingly, the UK was alone in suffering this humiliating revision. The IMF is forecasting growth for every other developed or large developing economy this year. That list includes not just all the countries some Conservative writers spend their careers disparaging, like France, Germany and Japan, but also even Russia, despite its wartime sanctions

 

 

[Spockydog]

 

 

[karaddin]

3 hours ago, Spockydog said:

 

 

If only someone, anyone, could have foreseen this outcome and issued warnings

[Varysblackfyre321]

6 hours ago, karaddin said:

If only someone, anyone, could have foreseen this outcome and issued warnings

The economy is a small price to pay to win the culture war. 

[Heartofice]

Its worth noting what the IMF have actually said about the UK growth figures here, because there is so much bollocks being written about it.

Pierre-Olivier Gourinchas, the IMF Research Director said that the UK's poor performance was down to 3 factors:
 

1. High exposure to the natural gas prices as the main reason.
2. Labour market has fallen post pandemic 
3. Large amounts of monetary tightening due to the inflation (which he says is a side effect of high energy prices)
    

Also worth noting that this is described as a sharper adjustment, but this is compared to 2022 where the UK was one of the top performers in terms of growth, a fact that seems to be missing from these conversations, or that the UK's growth is already being revised upwards for next year, or that the drop this year is likely to not be as sharp as predicted as energy prices have fallen again.

So I know this is obviously getting blamed on Brexit, mainly because of the date of the forecasts, but the only factor here that can even marginally have any real relation to Brexit is number 2. Even then we've seen record levels of immigration last year so it's hard to really see that it's a strong cause. Labour market challenges are being seen around the world as well, mostly due to the older workforces deciding to not get back into work. 

But of course these are boring narratives, and don't make for good headlines, and they don't confirm enough peoples biases so you get articles like the one posted above instead.

[DaveSumm]

 

[Spockydog]

What a bellend.

[Derfel Cadarn]

But what about their sovereignty???!?