Spockydog Posted January 27 Author Share Posted January 27 (edited) Hey, Baddiel. This you? Edited January 27 by Spockydog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 (edited) 4 hours ago, Heartofice said: In fact I wrote a massive long post containing links Yeah dude the links didn’t provide studies that demonstrate it being harmful for 16 year olds to stop legal documents of theirs from misgendering them. It did imo show you think the rise of trans people in society is a social contagion that would only exasperate if 16 year olds were given the option to their legal documents on gender Hence me asking if you’d prefer a general for people to keep misgendering a 16 year old trans boy despite his objections—as to not pressure him of course through “affirmation” 4 hours ago, Heartofice said: 'd urge anyone considering using Owen Jones as a source of information on the topic to reconsi Jesus Christ after a week you still haven’t stated how what he’s said is a lie or at least wrong here. Just cried about the Scottish bill being unpopular after misunderstanding what he was talking about, and now you’re just complaining Jones man bad. Are tories not planning on removing some countries from the list of whose gender recognition certificates they recognize. Is your grievance that he didn’t include “at least some countries” @Heartofice I can’t help you if you don’t/can’t articulate what you couldn’t understand. I’m sorry. Edited January 27 by Varysblackfyre321 Heartofice 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 I'd urge anyone considering HoI a source of information, or even a conduit to reputable information, on the subject to reconsider. 4 hours ago, Raja said: The right won't though - Same with asylum seekers, immigration, channel boats, trans rights - and whatever else they think will give them the next election - stay silent whilst these people are constantly attacked? Some of us have the privilege to do that, others don't. Exactly. 80-90% of the "constant conversation" on this issue is driven by the anti trans faction, which is always the case on any socially progressive issue that people get sick of hearing about (in the manner BFC is referencing), yet the target group gets all the blame for it. BFC - I feel like the main source of this from the pro trans side recently was Scotland actually passing legislation, the thing they're supposed to have the power to do, so it wasn't the kind of useless posturing you're wanting Starmer to avoid in the first place. It just resulted in the UK government trampling Scottish Parliament in what is arguably overreach, which again results in the anti side making sure people are talking about it Raja, Prince of the North, Week and 6 others 6 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoannaL Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 An article today described the discussion about which prison a former-male twice rapist now trans woman should go. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-64419533 This is a real case and a real discussion. It must be possible to state that there are problems for cis women with some laws and rules which are now proposed for trans women without immediately being called transphobic or other names. There must be a way to acknowledge trans persons without infringing on the safety of cis women or the destrution of fairness in sports and so on. Conflicting Thought and Raja 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 Cis women can and do also rape other cis women, trans women are also victims of rape - far more often than being the perpetrator. To decide that an entire group of people need to be treated as a threat due to rare occurrences is fucked. Ser Reptitious, Which Tyler, Prince of the North and 5 others 5 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 13 minutes ago, karaddin said: Cis women can and do also rape other cis women, trans women are also victims of rape - far more often than being the perpetrator. To decide that an entire group of people need to be treated as a threat due to rare occurrences is fucked. Jesus Christ. If your reaction to a two time rapist being put into a prison full of women is to try to draw some some sort of equivalence between male and female rapists then maybe you want to go away and really have a bit of a think. Absolutely grim. ants, kiko and Week 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFatCoward Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 15 minutes ago, karaddin said: Cis women can and do also rape other cis women, trans women are also victims of rape - far more often than being the perpetrator. To decide that an entire group of people need to be treated as a threat due to rare occurrences is fucked. Considering what % of the population are trans women, I've been to an horrific number of rapes where they are the victims. Which Tyler, Poobah, dog-days and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 8 hours ago, BigFatCoward said: if you think trans rights hasn't been front and centre for a number of weeks now (alongside those issues you mentioned), it must be because you have been not watching the news. It's because so many in the less respectable media won't shut up about it, and consistently link the matter it to SCOTLAND using this for INDEPENDENCE. Or so it looks from over here. Just like, you know, the less respectable media's relentless screeching about MM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Week Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 14 minutes ago, JoannaL said: There must be a way to acknowledge trans persons without infringing on the safety of cis women or the destrution of fairness in sports and so on. Well that ain't the way. That framing is taking bad faith arguments at face value for the jump. Immediately beginning the discussion at a screeching decibel. It reminds me of concerns about gaming journalism - aka complete bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 4 hours ago, karaddin said: I'd urge anyone considering HoI a source of information, or even a conduit to reputable information, on the subject to reconsider. Exactly. 80-90% of the "constant conversation" on this issue is driven by the anti trans faction, which is always the case on any socially progressive issue that people get sick of hearing about (in the manner BFC is referencing), yet the target group gets all the blame for it. BFC - I feel like the main source of this from the pro trans side recently was Scotland actually passing legislation, the thing they're supposed to have the power to do, so it wasn't the kind of useless posturing you're wanting Starmer to avoid in the first place. It just resulted in the UK government trampling Scottish Parliament in what is arguably overreach, which again results in the anti side making sure people are talking about it This is the strategy -- "the right wing has muddied the political waters by creating such confusion over things that should be clear—flooding the zone with sh*t, as Trump advisor Stephen Bannon put it—that people can’t figure out what is really going on." IOW, keep howling about trans, abortion, religion, patriotism, the poor treatment of men, while cutting all public services, allowing -- nay, encouraging -- ever more 'useless mouths' (useless meaning not white and rich and particularly male) to die, abused and oppressed -- squandering all monies to themselves, allying themselves globally to the sorts of governments our nations used to abhor for all those things, such as Russia, Saudi, North Korea, etc., while dividing the 'democratic' countries from each other -- BREXIT was wonderful for all the above. Crixus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoannaL Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 30 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said: Considering what % of the population are trans women, I've been to an horrific number of rapes where they are the victims. Yes, but that is not my point. I find it highly likely that this rapist is no trans woman at all but just want to take advantage of a bad-thought-out law by pretending to be one. Trans women as well as cis women are the likely victims here. Heartofice 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 46 minutes ago, JoannaL said: An article today described the discussion about which prison a former-male twice rapist now trans woman should go. You can just at the moment say trans woman. And yes there are a smattering cases anyone people can point to like this over the course of decades. Despite the British press would like to present it the Scottish bill had nothing to do with where she was housed and the laws currently hasn’t lead to a systematic increase of sexual assault in female prisons. 51 minutes ago, JoannaL said: This is a real case and a real discussion. It must be possible to state that there are problems for cis women with some laws and rules which are now proposed for trans women without immediately being called transphobic or other names. Sure. But a lot of the time it really is just bigotry—for example alluding to it being irresponsible to not misgender 16 year old trans kids as to avoid affirming them. 44 minutes ago, Heartofice said: your reaction to a two time rapist being put into a prison full of women Oh so it was a deliberate misgendering on your part earlier. You can’t say he, so you’ll settle for they. 45 minutes ago, Heartofice said: some some sort of equivalence between male and female rapists then maybe you want to go away and really have a bit of a think. The equivalence being rape is equally bad no matter the gender of who does it and that should be segregated from other prisoners like Blrant was? And once more an allusion to misgendering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Week Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 14 minutes ago, JoannaL said: Yes, but that is not my point. I find it highly likely that this rapist is no trans woman at all but just want to take advantage of a bad-thought-out law by pretending to be one. Trans women as well as cis women are the likely victims here. Would you care to interview them and inspect their genitals? No? Part of Karadin's point is that there are women who raped women already in that prison. You're using this case as a shocking example of abuse as a blunt instrument against a discussion of rights for marginalized people. This is the same rationale as arguing against things like bail reform in the US and is a new kind of Willie Horton. A (potential, but not likely actual) outcome of a law has an anecdotal example that is awful therefore we must continue the unacceptable status quo that causes far more pain and suffering for many people. ants 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 17 minutes ago, JoannaL said: Yes, but that is not my point. I find it highly likely that this rapist is no trans woman at all but just want to take advantage of a bad-thought-out law by pretending to be one. Trans women as well as cis women are the likely victims here. I really hope you’re not referring to the bill to make it easier to change legal documents as to not misgender them. The current laws probably do to less sexual assaults/rapes than the erosion or removal of them would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tywin et al. Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 1 hour ago, JoannaL said: or the destrution of fairness in sports and so on. This does not happen. Sure you can find a random example here and there, but when the uber conservative governor of Utah of all places has to veto an anti-trans bill relating to sports because he can only find a handful of examples of trans athletes in general, maybe just let this one go. Also worth guessing >90% of the people who bring this up, especially men, give zero fucks about women's sports at all and would probably be fine with defunding them. It's not an actual issue. But be afraid! Week, Prince of the North, ants and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoannaL Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 1 minute ago, Week said: Would you care to interview them and inspect their genitals? No? Part of Karadin's point is that there are women who raped women already in that prison. You're using this case as a shocking example of abuse as a blunt instrument against a discussion of rights for marginalized people. No, I point out that it must be possible to have new laws for the rights of marginalized people without endangering others. iI think that this specific law seems to be lacking if it allows (cis) men to prey on (cis and trans) women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A wilding Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 Since we seem to be generating a great deal of heat on this topic, here is a couple of sensible quotes from the BBC : Quote Sarah Armstrong, a professor of criminology at Glasgow University, said she was surprised that concern over the safety of women in prison was "focused on this one, very exceptional case" given the "scathing" reports from the European Committee on the Prevention of Torture after previous visits to [the woman's prison concerned]. Prof Armstrong said: "We hear the committee saying women are being held in segregation for such long periods and with no mental health support - one women gnawed her arm to the bone. I'd love to hear those who care about the safety of women showing up for the issues that are really facing women in prison." Quote A former Scottish prison governor, David Wilson, told BBC Scotland's the Nine that he had been involved in managing a number of transitioning prisoners during his career, which had been done on an "ad-hoc basis" - a strategy he said could no longer be coped with. He added: "There's going to have to be a much more concerted plan in relation to how to deal with transitioning prisoners, and that probably means setting up a special unit for those prisoners or a special wing. "It's not something that's so unusual - we now have special units that are basically being run in our prisons as hospices because we now have so many older prisoners in our prison population. I don't see this as any different from that." Week, Fragile Bird, mormont and 1 other 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 7 minutes ago, JoannaL said: think that this specific law seems to be lacking if it allows (cis) men to prey on (cis and trans) women. What law specifically? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoannaL Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 2 minutes ago, A wilding said: Since we seem to be generating a great deal of heat on this topic, here is a couple of sensible quotes from the BBC : The first part is whataboutism the second part I totally agree with; special units or special wings may be the way to go, this should be executed soon and be perhaps part of the law and be explained to everyone. kiko 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 I’m just going to brush over this insane assertion that you can in some way compare male and female rapist numbers or draw some sort of comparison between them. It’s insane. It’s worth also noting the actual statistics behind the prison transgender population in the UK. This is an article from 2018, but no reason anything would be different now. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629 “Reality Check verdict: A government survey has counted 125 transgender prisoners in England and Wales, but the Ministry of Justice says these figures are not yet a reliable reflection of the true numbers. The MoJ says 60 of them have been convicted of one or more sexual offences but it didn't identify their gender. There are likely to be more trans inmates, on shorter sentences and who are less likely to be sex offenders, who don't show up in this data.” ” Of the 60 serving time for sexual offences: 27 were convicted of rape (plus a further five of attempted rape) 13 were convicted of possessing, distributing or making indecent images of children 13 were convicted of sexual assault or attempted sexual assault Nine were convicted of causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity Seven were convicted of sexual activity with a child Seven were convicted of indecent assault or gross indecency” The simple stats suggest that these individuals are much more of a danger to women than your average woman. Just for clarification as to my point, I’m not painting trans people as more dangerous than the average population, but that trans women sent to jail are often there for sexual offences, quite often rape ( I’d also be suspicious that many of these individuals are in fact trans, but like Bryson using that identity to game the system) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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