Jon's death

[kissdbyfire]

3 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

I kind of hope for his sake that he is, because somehow surviving numerous stab wounds of lethal intent in a medieval setting would not be a fun experience.

Maybe four… delivered w/ relatively short blades, that have to go through several layers of small clothes (something that is mentioned over and over and over again irt the NW), leather, mail, in freezing weather and by the looks of it stab wounds that weren’t delivered w/ much conviction. He’s definitely not dead. 

[Many-Faced Votary]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

Maybe four… delivered w/ relatively short blades, that have to go through several layers of small clothes (something that is mentioned over and over and over again irt the NW), leather, mail, in freezing weather and by the looks of it stab wounds that weren’t delivered w/ much conviction. He’s definitely not dead. 

You are correct about the possible importance of layers, but daggers pierce chainmail.

 

I don't think it's at all safe to say that the cuts weren't deep. One big clue that points to the contrary is one of the first paragraphs in Barristan's chapter right after Jon's.

…away, he meant to say. When Wick Whittlestick slashed at his throat, the word turned into a grunt. Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin. He cut me. When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers. “Why?”

“For the Watch.” Wick slashed at him again. This time Jon caught his wrist and bent his arm back until he dropped the dagger. The gangling steward backed away, his hands upraised as if to say, Not me, it was not me. Men were screaming. Jon reached for Longclaw, but his fingers had grown stiff and clumsy. Somehow he could not seem to get the sword free of its scabbard.

Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. “For the Watch.” He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. “Ghost,” he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end.

When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold…

Jon XIII, A Dance with Dragons

He saw no sign of dragons, but he had not expected to. The dragons did not like the rain. A thin red slash marked the eastern horizon where the sun might soon appear. It reminded Selmy of the first blood welling from a wound. Often, even with a deep cut, the blood came before the pain.

The Queen's Hand, A Dance with Dragons

[kissdbyfire]

@Many-Faced Votary, I’m never certain of how much research Martin puts into certain things, so there’s that. But if I cut myself chopping veggies I’ll bleed in a way that is consistent w/ the description given above - blood welling. 

We will have to wait for Winds to settle this; I feel pretty confident he’s not dead.

 

[Many-Faced Votary]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

@Many-Faced Votary, I’m never certain of how much research Martin puts into certain things, so there’s that. But if I cut myself chopping veggies I’ll bleed in a way that is consistent w/ the description given above - blood welling. 

We will have to wait for Winds to settle this; I feel pretty confident he’s not dead.

I hope he's not! I would tend to agree that even in optimal conditions, resurrection by human hands is going to result in raising something that is not the person who died -- be it a fire wight (e.g., Lady Stoneheart), an ice wight (obviously), or other (e.g., Robert Strong). Furthermore, I highly doubt there will ever be direct intervention by a god (or anything else proving or disproving any god's existence) in the series.

Though if he is, could we call Dany a necrophile?

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

I hope he's not! I would tend to agree that even in optimal conditions, resurrection by human hands is going to result in raising something that is not the person who died -- be it a fire wight (e.g., Lady Stoneheart), an ice wight (obviously), or other (e.g., Robert Strong). Furthermore, I highly doubt there will ever be direct intervention by a god (or anything else proving or disproving any god's existence) in the series.

Though if he is, could we call Dany a necrophile?

Yeah, this is another issue imo… we already have a bit of a ‘crowd’ of undead, and it can get to be just too much, narratively speaking. Another point for me is that Jon’s story is far from over, and a resurrected Jon is not Jon…

[StarkTullies]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, this is another issue imo… we already have a bit of a ‘crowd’ of undead, and it can get to be just too much, narratively speaking. Another point for me is that Jon’s story is far from over, and a resurrected Jon is not Jon…

I agree with this, but it never occurred to me before seeing comments on this forum that Jon is not dead.  I'm still 100% convinced that he is, but obviously he will come back to life.  Mel is famously wrong in her interpretations of her seemingly always-correct visions, but I think her warnings to Jon were correct.  I also think Varamyr's chapter had a specific purpose about skinchangers living on in their wolf; otherwise, what was the point?  Last, I don't think the multiple people who tried to kill Jon were that incompetent (even if it is Bowen that we're talking about) to not succeed, and it would be anti-climactic for TWOW to start off with Jon merely recovering from his stab wounds.

That said, Lady Stoneheart is pretty much a continuation of Beric Dondarrion; it was his life-force living on in Catelyn.  Each time they come back they were faded and less than they were... and Catelyn far worse because she was a rotting corpse for 3 days before being raised again.  Ser Robert Strong was seemingly raised to life by "alt-science" rather than magic.  Jon is different from any of them.  His body may be dead (preserved in an ice cell most likely, and not rotting), but his spirit is alive since he's living on in Ghost.

Also, if this story has a single person who is Azor Ahai reborn (a big if, and not something that I necessarily want), it is obviously going to be Jon or Dany.  Most people interpret that Azor Ahai being "reborn" as some sort of re-incarnation, or just a second person playing the same role.  But maybe it is a more literal interpretation: that the person has to actually be "born" a second time, and in order for that to happen they first must die.  Some people claim that Azor Ahai was born again when Dany walked into those flames, but she didn't actually die so she wasn't actually reborn.  Jon actually is dead.  (I'm not trying to start a Jon vs Dany debate.  Nor is this a pro-Jon argument: I love Jon, I don't love Azor Ahai, and I have no desire for him or anyone else to become Azor Ahai, but I recognize it as a possibility.)

[SeanF]

People can survive vicious stab wounds in freezing weather that would be fatal in warm weather, as blood flows more sluggishly.

That said, stomach wounds would almost always be fatal in this world (unless you’re Arya in the Abomination and you recover after a good night’s sleep).

So, I think Jon is dead.  I suspect Gilly’s baby or Shireen will be burned alive to revive him.

[Willam Stark]

18 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I suspect Gilly’s baby or Shireen will be burned alive to revive him.

Shireen won't be burned until she met her father again, he's the one who's supposed to burn her alive and he's not at Castle Black currently.

[kissdbyfire]

21 minutes ago, StarkTullies said:

I agree with this, but it never occurred to me before seeing comments on this forum that Jon is not dead. 

And I thought it was pretty funny when Dance came out and many were freaking out about Jon’s death and I was like, ‘what are you talking about?’.

 

 

21 minutes ago, StarkTullies said:

I'm still 100% convinced that he is, but obviously he will come back to life.

I’m pretty certain he isn’t dead… we’ll see how it goes. 

 

21 minutes ago, StarkTullies said:

  Mel is famously wrong in her interpretations of her seemingly always-correct visions, but I think her warnings to Jon were correct. 

Mel warns Jon of a betrayal, of daggers in the dark, but she doesn’t say he’ll die. 

ADwD, Jon I

“Ice, I see, and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red and hard, and naked steel. It was very cold.”

ADwD, Melisandre 

 

“But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. Melisandre had seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it. Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark. He would not listen.”

ADwD, Jon X

“I am seeing skulls. And you. I see your face every time I look into the flames. The danger that I warned you of grows very close now.”

  “Daggers in the dark. I know. You will forgive my doubts, my lady. A grey girl on a dying horse, fleeing from a marriage, that was what you said.”

  “I was not wrong.”

  “You were not right. Alys is not Arya.”

Mel always wants to prove herself, and this is especially true irt Jon. I think that if she’d seen his death, he would have said so instead of warning him of a betrayal and “danger”. 

21 minutes ago, StarkTullies said:

I also think Varamyr's chapter had a specific purpose about skinchangers living on in their wolf; otherwise, what was the point? 

To make readers think of that that was the whole point of the prologue when they read Jon XIII while not paying enough attention to the dangers and possibilities of skinchanging into human beings. Just my 2p. 

21 minutes ago, StarkTullies said:

Last, I don't think the multiple people who tried to kill Jon were that incompetent (even if it is Bowen that we're talking about) to not succeed, and it would be anti-climactic for TWOW to start off with Jon merely recovering from his stab wounds.

I don’t think it’s necessarily about incompetence, or at least not just incompetence. I think they’ve acted before they were ready and ended up putting themselves in a very poor position. Not only there’s a very pissed off giant right there, but Leathers and others loyal to Jon. Then there’s also the fact that cowards will be cowards, and their behaviour shows this clearly. Then add to that the description of the scene, where one one blade barely grazes the skin then Jon wrenches the dagger from Wick’s hand etc. 

Yeah, he ain’t dead.

21 minutes ago, StarkTullies said:

That said, Lady Stoneheart is pretty much a continuation of Beric Dondarrion; it was his life-force living on in Catelyn.  Each time they come back they were faded and less than they were... and Catelyn far worse because she was a rotting corpse for 3 days before being raised again.  Ser Robert Strong was seemingly raised to life by "alt-science" rather than magic.  Jon is different from any of them.  His body may be dead (preserved in an ice cell most likely, and not rotting), but his spirit is alive since he's living on in Ghost.

I’m not sure about Jon being in an ice cell… just b/c there are too many men loyal to him there, plus all the free folk in the Shieldhall. Even if those in the Shieldhall can’t hear the racket outside, my guess is that someone like Leathers, who is very loyal and very smart, would send someone to go get Tormund immediately. 

21 minutes ago, StarkTullies said:

Also, if this story has a single person who is Azor Ahai reborn (a big if, and not something that I necessarily want), it is obviously going to be Jon or Dany.  Most people interpret that Azor Ahai being "reborn" as some sort of re-incarnation, or just a second person playing the same role.  But maybe it is a more literal interpretation: that the person has to actually be "born" a second time, and in order for that to happen they first must die.  Some people claim that Azor Ahai was born again when Dany walked into those flames, but she didn't actually die so she wasn't actually reborn.  Jon actually is dead.  (I'm not trying to start a Jon vs Dany debate.  Nor is this a pro-Jon argument: I love Jon, I don't love Azor Ahai, and I have no desire for him or anyone else to become Azor Ahai, but I recognize it as a possibility.)

I’m not going to get into this… just because I hate Arsehole Ahai, I think he’s a villain and I hope no one becomes a reincarnation or whatever of this legend.

[SeanF]

13 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

Shireen won't be burned until she met her father again, he's the one who's supposed to burn her alive and he's not at Castle Black currently.

I think that Gilly's baby is the more likely of the two to be sacrificed , because Stannis' people, and Mel's followers, and most Free Folk would view him as an abomination.

And, it would be a hideous irony if Jon's efforts to prevent child murder actually resulted in it.  

[Willam Stark]

1 hour ago, StarkTullies said:

I also think Varamyr's chapter had a specific purpose about skinchangers living on in their wolf; otherwise, what was the point?

This is what we call a red herring, GRRM used it a lot to hide the identity of Jon Snow's mother for example, now we know it's Lyanna, not Wylla, Ashara or the fisherman's daughter.

[StarkTullies]

29 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Mel warns Jon of a betrayal, of daggers in the dark, but she doesn’t say he’ll die.

You're right, she doesn't.  But Mel isn't like Jojen, who thinks that predictions can't be changed.  She saw two futures for Stannis whether he left from Dragonstone toward Storm's End or directly toward King's Landing.  I think she was trying to prevent the attack from ever happening, thinking that it could be prevented.

Also, she wants Jon to trust her.  Saying that he'll die but then rise again would just make her sound crazy.  Jon only knows about the zombie wights: he doesn't know about Beric or any of the raised dead who still has life in them.

33 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

To make readers think of that that was the whole point of the prologue when they read Jon XIII while not paying enough attention to the dangers and possibilities of skinchanging into human beings.

20 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

This is what we call a red herring, GRRM used it a lot to hide the identity of Jon Snow's mother for example, now we know it's Lyanna, not Wylla, Ashara or the fisherman's daughter.

I defintely think there is more than one purpose of Varamyr's prologue chapter.  For both Jon (living on in your animal after death) and Bran (morality rules of skinchanging... not that Hagon is necessarily an authority on that).  Anyway, obviously no one but George Martin knows what's going on with Jon, so we'll just have to wait and see.  I think Jon's dead, but I'd be happy to be wrong.

36 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I’m not sure about Jon being in an ice cell… just b/c there are too many men loyal to him there, plus all the free folk in the Shieldhall.

I meant that if Jon is dead, I think it will be the loyal men putting him in there for preservation, not for arresting a dead body.  Since it is unlikely that Mel will give Jon a haircut and magic sponge bath and say a couple words to raise Jon without consequence, I think she will ask to have Jon kept in the cells until she is ready.  No real text to support my speculation, I suppose.  My point is that Jon's body won't be rotten and decayed when he is raised, so pointing to Lady Stoneheart for what will happen to Jon (as Jon-haters are often inclined to do) isn't a like-for-like comparison.

40 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I’m not going to get into this… just because I hate Arsehole Ahai, I think he’s a villain and I hope no one becomes a reincarnation or whatever of this legend.

I 100% agree.  If the legends of AA are true (a big if), he doesn't sound like a hero to me.  But tempering his sword by stabbing it through his wife's heart sounds so ludicrous and silly that if Azor Ahai ever existed, the truth has been washed out by thousands of years of constantly changing re-tellings.

I also don't want to derail the thread with a side-tangent, so I won't continue on this topic....

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, StarkTullies said:

Since it is unlikely that Mel will give Jon a haircut and magic sponge bath and say a couple words to raise Jon without consequence,

Dear Old Gods, what was that?

 

[StarkTullies]

36 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think that Gilly's baby is the more likely of the two to be sacrificed , because Stannis' people, and Mel's followers, and most Free Folk would view him as an abomination.

Unless Mel can see through the baby swap, or unless Val tells the truth, everybody thinks that the baby is Mance Rayder's.  But if they know that the baby is actually Gilly and Craster's, is an "abomination" a worthy sacrifice?

[StarkTullies]

Deleted post because it indirectly referenced sources that should not be referenced.

[SeanF]

28 minutes ago, StarkTullies said:

Unless Mel can see through the baby swap, or unless Val tells the truth, everybody thinks that the baby is Mance Rayder's.  But if they know that the baby is actually Gilly and Craster's, is an "abomination" a worthy sacrifice?

That’s hard to say.

If they think he’s Mance’s baby, that would increase the value of the sacrifice, but also run into hostility from the Free Folk.

[Craving Peaches]

29 minutes ago, StarkTullies said:

But if they know that the baby is actually Gilly and Craster's, is an "abomination" a worthy sacrifice?

I think he already has some sacrificial value because he is an innocent baby. Young + Innocent = Better Sacrifice ()

Quote

The Lord of Light cherishes the innocent. There is no sacrifice more precious.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

8 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

I kind of hope for his sake that he is, because somehow surviving numerous stab wounds of lethal intent in a medieval setting would not be a fun experience.

As others said before me he was wearing many layers of clothes and it was short blades. His most serious wound is the one on the neck since the others between the shoulder blades and in the belly are in more protected areas of the body. And never forget what Aemon said *Fire consumes, but cold preserves…*.

[SeanF]

18 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think he already has some sacrificial value because he is an innocent baby. Young + Innocent = Better Sacrifice (/cdn-cgi/mirage/d061fbc8a99b74d9127f1b0a19a8d29641ec2a7e3541937299ee1540bc7d0bf1/1280/https://asoiaf.westeros.org/uploads/emoticons/default_unsure.png)

That too.  If Mel says “burn him”, there won’t be many speaking up for him.

I think it’s the irony that will make Martin go for it.  Jon forced Gilly to give up her child, thinking he’d save Mance’s.  Then the child is burned alive to revive him, and he has to wrestle with his guilt over his actions.

[kissdbyfire]

11 minutes ago, SeanF said:

That too.  If Mel says “burn him”, there won’t be many speaking up for him.

I think it’s the irony that will make Martin go for it.  Jon forced Gilly to give up her child, thinking he’d save Mance’s.  Then the child is burned alive to revive him, and he has to wrestle with his guilt over his actions.

I'm not so sure. In a confrontation between Mel and a few [of the worst] Queen's Men and Val and the free folk, my money is on Val and the free folk.