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Jon Snow is likely to go insane


Damsel in Distress
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2 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

A second item of note is that the madness happens more often when the mother comes from outside the family.  This means the carriers of the madness are the male Targaryens.

First you left Viserys, Danys's brother, off the list.  Targaryen mother, Targaryen father.  He might not be mad but he was certainly a terrible person and getting worse the older he got, similar to his father.

The royal succession is through the males.  If a female Targaryen marries a non-Targaryen, their children are not considered Targaryen heirs and the story generally no longer keeps track of them.  So the "data" is not fairly represented.

If male Targaryens are the "madness carriers", then it makes no difference if the mother is a Targaryen or non-Targaryen.  Unless your argument is that Mad + Sane = Mad, but Mad + Mad = Sane?  (And no, I don't think all Targaryens are mad, but I am just trying to understand the argument.)

2 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

The Targaryens are the most prominent family in the series of A Song of Ice and Fire.

You can make that argument about the accessory books.  Fire & Blood: obviously about the Targaryens.  The Starks are unquestionably the main family in ASOIAF, no matter how much one likes or dislikes them.

2 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Daenerys Targaryen is just fine.  She will not go mad.  Her future children are not going to go mad.

I agree with you that she will not go mad.  I doubt that Daenerys or House Targaryen will survive the end of the story, or that Dany will have children.  Mirri could have been trying to frighten her, but I think the curse on Dany being unable to bear more children is real.

2 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon.  Should this theory of his parentage prove to be true, that Rhaegar is the father and Lyanna Stark the mother, it is very likely that it will be Jon who will go insane.

Why do either Jon or Dany need to go insane?  Jon has shown zero signs of mental instability whatsoever: if Jon does go insane, it will be because he was murdered, lived as a wolf for a time, and then got brought back to life under undoubtedly dramatic circumstances, not because Jon's father was a male Targaryen.

Edited by StarkTullies
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34 minutes ago, StarkTullies said:

but I am just trying to understand the argument.

IMO the root of all these silly, laughable & wholly unsupported ‘theories’ - and I use theories as loosely as possible - is that that’s the only possible way for certain outcomes to happen. In other words, the only way the evul Starks are going to commit the atrocities the TARGAs claim they will is if they go mad. Hence Arya will go/is insane, Jon will go/is insane, Rickon will go/is insane, and so on. That’s why we get the ‘x Stark will go insane!’ threads ad nauseam

Edited by kissdbyfire
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@Damsel in Distress  Excellent research and analysis.  :cheers: 

I do not recall reading of a Targaryen female who lost her mind.  The males are the ones who go nuts.  Only two can be positively confirmed though, Aerys and Baelor.  Aerion was just on a very bad trip.  Aerion's the kind to take psychoactive drugs. 

**(I would believe it of the Rogue Prince/Daemon T to take drugs to get a high)**

See my musings on Jon's parents.  I think R + L = J is the best of the choices because it links two old enemies to one another.  Aegon is a Blackfyre and that also links another former enemy to House Targaryen and opens the doors to reconciliation. 

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13 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

I posted a comment on this in 2017. 

If R + L = J is true, then Jon Snow is the one who will go insane.  He will have incidences of insanity from the Stark as well as the Targaryen side.  His kin, Arya Stark, is already insane. 

 

I edited, updated, and re-posted below:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

Rumors of Targaryen Madness is an Exaggeration.  And a slander against the ruling House Targaryen

 

The prevalence of the madness that runs in the family is exaggerated.  A careful study of the Targaryen lineage shows that this madness is not as prevalent as their enemies would have us believe.

 

    Targaryen + Targaryen = Maegor the Cruel
    Arryn + Targaryen = Rhaenyra
    Hightower + Targaryen = Aegon II
    Rogare + Targaryen = Aegon IV
    Velaryon + Targaryen = Baelor the Blessed
    Dayne + Targaryen = Aerion Brightflame
    Kiera + Targaryen = Vaela
    Targaryen + Targaryen = Aerys II

 

In red - female parent. Non-Targaryen female parent. 

Italics – unclear whether these people were mad or simply just cruel. Vaela is likely someone who just had a below average mental capacity. 

What interests me most is that the majority of the so-called “mad” members of the family were not the direct result of T + T but rather the result of what appears to be normal pairings.  A second item of note is that the madness happens more often when the mother comes from outside the family.  This means the carriers of the madness are the male Targaryens.  Thirdly, because we are dealing with a fantasy world in which real genetics may not completely hold true, we can assume that anyone whose father is a Targaryen will have an equal chance of going mad as any other member of the family with a Targaryen father.  Also note that we have not had a female Targaryen of whom we can clearly point out as mad.  None.  Rhaenyra was a b* but being a difficult person does not make one mad.  Maegor was cruel but that doesn’t mean he was mad.  If cruelty alone make one mad then Tywin and Stannis could be labeled insane. 

 

Implications are as follows:

 

    1.  The Targaryens are the most prominent family in the series of A Song of Ice and Fire.  I do not believe George R R Martin will end this family line.  I think the family just needed a fresh start and based on my theory that the males carry the potentially damaging gene it makes sense to eliminate the male line and begin anew with a perfect Targaryen female.  Who is, of course, the Mother of Dragons herself, Daenerys Targaryen.
    2.  The Targaryen dragons also needed a refresh.  The heroine delivered once more and hatched three eggs.
    3.  Daenerys Targaryen is just fine.  She will not go mad.  Her future children are not going to go mad. 
    4.  Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon.  Should this theory of his parentage prove to be true, that Rhaegar is the father and Lyanna Stark the mother, it is very likely that it will be Jon who will go insane.

 My verdict?  Jon has a much greater chance of going mad than Daenerys. 

Agreed  

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38 minutes ago, Ring3r said:

The logic here is stretchier than a 58 year old prostitute.

A charming note to add to the thread.

Jon might go a llttle nuts if he wakes up having warged Ghost while his body is dealing with stab wounds.

Some posters think this was foreshadowed in the remembered game in the crypt when he pretended to be a a ghost to scare his siblings.

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20 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

I posted a comment on this in 2017. 

If R + L = J is true, then Jon Snow is the one who will go insane.  He will have incidences of insanity from the Stark as well as the Targaryen side.  His kin, Arya Stark, is already insane. 

 

I edited, updated, and re-posted below:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

Rumors of Targaryen Madness is an Exaggeration.  And a slander against the ruling House Targaryen

 

The prevalence of the madness that runs in the family is exaggerated.  A careful study of the Targaryen lineage shows that this madness is not as prevalent as their enemies would have us believe.

 

    Targaryen + Targaryen = Maegor the Cruel
    Arryn + Targaryen = Rhaenyra
    Hightower + Targaryen = Aegon II
    Rogare + Targaryen = Aegon IV
    Velaryon + Targaryen = Baelor the Blessed
    Dayne + Targaryen = Aerion Brightflame
    Kiera + Targaryen = Vaela
    Targaryen + Targaryen = Aerys II

 

In red - female parent. Non-Targaryen female parent. 

Italics – unclear whether these people were mad or simply just cruel. Vaela is likely someone who just had a below average mental capacity. 

What interests me most is that the majority of the so-called “mad” members of the family were not the direct result of T + T but rather the result of what appears to be normal pairings.  A second item of note is that the madness happens more often when the mother comes from outside the family.  This means the carriers of the madness are the male Targaryens.  Thirdly, because we are dealing with a fantasy world in which real genetics may not completely hold true, we can assume that anyone whose father is a Targaryen will have an equal chance of going mad as any other member of the family with a Targaryen father.  Also note that we have not had a female Targaryen of whom we can clearly point out as mad.  None.  Rhaenyra was a b* but being a difficult person does not make one mad.  Maegor was cruel but that doesn’t mean he was mad.  If cruelty alone make one mad then Tywin and Stannis could be labeled insane. 

 

Implications are as follows:

 

    1.  The Targaryens are the most prominent family in the series of A Song of Ice and Fire.  I do not believe George R R Martin will end this family line.  I think the family just needed a fresh start and based on my theory that the males carry the potentially damaging gene it makes sense to eliminate the male line and begin anew with a perfect Targaryen female.  Who is, of course, the Mother of Dragons herself, Daenerys Targaryen.
    2.  The Targaryen dragons also needed a refresh.  The heroine delivered once more and hatched three eggs.
    3.  Daenerys Targaryen is just fine.  She will not go mad.  Her future children are not going to go mad. 
    4.  Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon.  Should this theory of his parentage prove to be true, that Rhaegar is the father and Lyanna Stark the mother, it is very likely that it will be Jon who will go insane.

 My verdict?  Jon has a much greater chance of going mad than Daenerys. 

I agree with the verdict. If someone is going insane in the future, it will be the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. The son of Rhaegar and Elia is also in danger of losing his mind. 

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On 1/14/2023 at 9:24 AM, Damsel in Distress said:

I posted a comment on this in 2017. 

If R + L = J is true, then Jon Snow is the one who will go insane.  He will have incidences of insanity from the Stark as well as the Targaryen side.  His kin, Arya Stark, is already insane. 

 

I edited, updated, and re-posted below:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

Rumors of Targaryen Madness is an Exaggeration.  And a slander against the ruling House Targaryen

 

The prevalence of the madness that runs in the family is exaggerated.  A careful study of the Targaryen lineage shows that this madness is not as prevalent as their enemies would have us believe.

 

    Targaryen + Targaryen = Maegor the Cruel
    Arryn + Targaryen = Rhaenyra
    Hightower + Targaryen = Aegon II
    Rogare + Targaryen = Aegon IV
    Velaryon + Targaryen = Baelor the Blessed
    Dayne + Targaryen = Aerion Brightflame
    Kiera + Targaryen = Vaela
    Targaryen + Targaryen = Aerys II

 

In red - female parent. Non-Targaryen female parent. 

Italics – unclear whether these people were mad or simply just cruel. Vaela is likely someone who just had a below average mental capacity. 

What interests me most is that the majority of the so-called “mad” members of the family were not the direct result of T + T but rather the result of what appears to be normal pairings.  A second item of note is that the madness happens more often when the mother comes from outside the family.  This means the carriers of the madness are the male Targaryens.  Thirdly, because we are dealing with a fantasy world in which real genetics may not completely hold true, we can assume that anyone whose father is a Targaryen will have an equal chance of going mad as any other member of the family with a Targaryen father.  Also note that we have not had a female Targaryen of whom we can clearly point out as mad.  None.  Rhaenyra was a b* but being a difficult person does not make one mad.  Maegor was cruel but that doesn’t mean he was mad.  If cruelty alone make one mad then Tywin and Stannis could be labeled insane. 

 

Implications are as follows:

 

    1.  The Targaryens are the most prominent family in the series of A Song of Ice and Fire.  I do not believe George R R Martin will end this family line.  I think the family just needed a fresh start and based on my theory that the males carry the potentially damaging gene it makes sense to eliminate the male line and begin anew with a perfect Targaryen female.  Who is, of course, the Mother of Dragons herself, Daenerys Targaryen.
    2.  The Targaryen dragons also needed a refresh.  The heroine delivered once more and hatched three eggs.
    3.  Daenerys Targaryen is just fine.  She will not go mad.  Her future children are not going to go mad. 
    4.  Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon.  Should this theory of his parentage prove to be true, that Rhaegar is the father and Lyanna Stark the mother, it is very likely that it will be Jon who will go insane.

 My verdict?  Jon has a much greater chance of going mad than Daenerys. 

I am not on the R + L = J train but if it is true, yeah, Jon is the one who will go crazy.  I do not expect Dany to go crazy.  She has very good control of her emotions as well as very good at being self-aware.  

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6 minutes ago, Rondo said:

She has very good control of her emotions

Quote

Mercy, thought Dany. They will have the dragon's mercy. "Skahaz, I have changed my mind. Question the man sharply."

"I could. Or I could question the daughters sharply whilst the father looks on. That will wring some names from him."

"Do as you think best, but bring me names." Her fury was a fire in her belly.

Hmm...has such good emotional control that she almost immediately gives into her anger to the extent of having people tortured.

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