Jon Snow is likely to go insane

[Corvo the Crow]

12 hours ago, Ran said:

Reports of posts that violate the rules will be dealt with if they in fact violate rules. Threads that discuss characters critically that aren't just taking the piss by making silly claims are okay.

Discussion whether someone, be this someone Dany or anyone else, who says s/he's going to abolish slavery and actually commits a genocide over it and later allows it again, previously being a slave owner him/herself, not paying wages etc. warrants a discussion I would guess, but instead gets locked down.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

12 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

The long story short or short story long of this can be distilled down to one important and inescapable conclusion.  If R + L = J posits Rhaegar as the father of Jon Snow and it is true then it is inescapable that Jon has the same chances of going insane as every other Targaryen.  It's pointless to argue against it because it's true. 

Nope, because Jon isn't every other Targaryen. He is not born of the disgusting practice of incest like most other Targaryen. You can compare his chances to say, his several times great unlce and predecessor as Lord Commander Brynden Bloodraven who also wasn't born an abomination of incest. Brynden is over a hundred years old and has yet to become insane, despite being fused to a tree, which by itself must've been a traumatizing experience.

[sifth]

13 hours ago, Ran said:

Reports of posts that violate the rules will be dealt with if they in fact violate rules. Threads that discuss characters critically that aren't just taking the piss by making silly claims are okay.

I mean hate threads seem to be on the rise as of late and mostly by the same people. So it does make one wonder.

[Ran]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

I mean hate threads seem to be on the rise as of late and mostly by the same people. So it does make one wonder.

I'm certainly happy to put a foot down on repetitive threads. But being critical of a character and wanting to discuss them isn't a problem in itself.

[kissdbyfire]

17 minutes ago, Ran said:

I'm certainly happy to put a foot down on repetitive threads. But being critical of a character and wanting to discuss them isn't a problem in itself.

I don't think anyone  has a problem w/ people disliking characters and being validly critical of them. And I understand some of this is very subjective, but there are a lot of threads (and posts) whose OPs are entirely lacking in support from the text and are blatantly making statements that are nothing but empty hate. I don't think I've ever reported a thread/OP, in part because of how subjective this is: what is trolling, what is a genuine lack of comprehension? There's also the fact that maybe people don't want to be flooding the mods w/ reports b/c that could be something that's at least frowned upon? I understand there are no easy answers, but if there's one thing I'm sure of is that these empty hate threads suck the joy and life out of the forum for many members. One final thought: the threads and posts I'm referring to are generally disliked by many, many posters who want to have meaningful discussions, and among these posters we have fans of virtually every character in the books.

Edited January 25, 2023 by kissdbyfire

[Moiraine Sedai]

18 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

The long story short or short story long of this can be distilled down to one important and inescapable conclusion.  If R + L = J posits Rhaegar as the father of Jon Snow and it is true then it is inescapable that Jon has the same chances of going insane as every other Targaryen.  It's pointless to argue against it because it's true. 

It is an inescapable risk to Jon if he is a Targaryen. His fans will try to spin their way out of this but it’s futile. 

[Maegor_the_Cool]

3 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

It is an inescapable risk to Jon if he is a Targaryen. His fans will try to spin their way out of this but it’s futile. 

He has the same amount of chance to go insane as Dany. 
 

Though I think Targ insanity is vastly overblown. I think only 2 Targaryen rulers were truly mad, Baelor the Blessed and Aerys II. Maegor was very cruel but not insane. Aegon the Unworthy was just a selfish piece of shit. Rhaenyra may have been been a bit mental near the end of her life, but it wasn’t an innate madness, more akin to the madness that poor Cat went through before she was murdered by the pack of weasels known as the Freys.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Maegor Targaryen I said:

He has the same amount of chance to go insane as Dany. 

Does he not have slightly less though as Daenerys' parents were brother and sister whereas Jon's weren't?

[Maegor_the_Cool]

10 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Does he not have slightly less though as Daenerys' parents were brother and sister whereas Jon's weren't?

I assume dying and being resurrected is traumatic. Being betrayed by bigoted scumbags also doesn’t help.

[Darth Sidious]

10 hours ago, sifth said:

I mean hate threads seem to be on the rise as of late and mostly by the same people. So it does make one wonder.

Most of the hate threads are coming from the Stark fandom. 
This excellent thread from Damsel makes a very valid point. The Stark fans can scream “troll” and “hate thread” all they want and it won’t discredit the very valid point made by Damsel in distress. 

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, Darth Sidious said:

Most of the hate threads are coming from the Stark fandom. 
This excellent thread from Damsel makes a very valid point. The Stark fans can scream “troll” and “hate thread” all they want and it won’t discredit the very valid point made by Damsel in distress. 

This is 100% certified bollocks and you know it. But please, carry on.

[Darth Sidious]

On 1/14/2023 at 9:24 AM, Damsel in Distress said:

I posted a comment on this in 2017. 

If R + L = J is true, then Jon Snow is the one who will go insane.  He will have incidences of insanity from the Stark as well as the Targaryen side.  His kin, Arya Stark, is already insane. 

 

I edited, updated, and re-posted below:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

Rumors of Targaryen Madness is an Exaggeration.  And a slander against the ruling House Targaryen. 

 

The prevalence of the madness that runs in the family is exaggerated.  A careful study of the Targaryen lineage shows that this madness is not as prevalent as their enemies would have us believe.

 

    Targaryen + Targaryen = Maegor the Cruel
    Arryn + Targaryen = Rhaenyra
    Hightower + Targaryen = Aegon II
    Rogare + Targaryen = Aegon IV
    Velaryon + Targaryen = Baelor the Blessed
    Dayne + Targaryen = Aerion Brightflame
    Kiera + Targaryen = Vaela
    Targaryen + Targaryen = Aerys II

 

In red - female parent. Non-Targaryen female parent. 

Italics – unclear whether these people were mad or simply just cruel. Vaela is likely someone who just had a below average mental capacity. 

What interests me most is that the majority of the so-called “mad” members of the family were not the direct result of T + T but rather the result of what appears to be normal pairings.  A second item of note is that the madness happens more often when the mother comes from outside the family.  This means the carriers of the madness are the male Targaryens.  Thirdly, because we are dealing with a fantasy world in which real genetics may not completely hold true, we can assume that anyone whose father is a Targaryen will have an equal chance of going mad as any other member of the family with a Targaryen father.  Also note that we have not had a female Targaryen of whom we can clearly point out as mad.  None.  Rhaenyra was a b* but being a difficult person does not make one mad.  Maegor was cruel but that doesn’t mean he was mad.  If cruelty alone make one mad then Tywin and Stannis could be labeled insane. 

 

Implications are as follows:

 

    1.  The Targaryens are the most prominent family in the series of A Song of Ice and Fire.  I do not believe George R R Martin will end this family line.  I think the family just needed a fresh start and based on my theory that the males carry the potentially damaging gene it makes sense to eliminate the male line and begin anew with a perfect Targaryen female.  Who is, of course, the Mother of Dragons herself, Daenerys Targaryen.
    2.  The Targaryen dragons also needed a refresh.  The heroine delivered once more and hatched three eggs.
    3.  Daenerys Targaryen is just fine.  She will not go mad.  Her future children are not going to go mad. 
    4.  Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon.  Should this theory of his parentage prove to be true, that Rhaegar is the father and Lyanna Stark the mother, it is very likely that it will be Jon who will go insane.

 My verdict?  Jon has a much greater chance of going mad than Daenerys. 

The Targaryens who went sideways were Half-Targaryen. Only Aerys and Maegor came from two Targaryen parents. So the incidence is even higher among the Half-Targaryens. We should look into the reason. Perhaps a small genetic incompatibility exists between the god-like Targaryens and regular humans. They are the direct descendants of the founders of the Great Empire of the Dawn. Maybe they were biological and physical perfection. To quote Martin, “ gods do not mate with beasts.” It could mean the Targaryens damaged their genes when they married outside of the Valyrian pool. 
 

The idea of early man having superior biology comes from the bible. The patriarchs lived very long lives. 

[Craving Peaches]

12 minutes ago, Darth Sidious said:

Most of the hate threads are coming from the Stark fandom. 
This excellent thread from Damsel makes a very valid point. The Stark fans can scream “troll” and “hate thread” all they want and it won’t discredit the very valid point made by Damsel in distress.

I'm really not convinced. Sure, there were one or two anti-Daenerys threads, that were made in response to a much greater quantity of anti-Stark posts. Now tit for tat behaviour is not constructive, but I can see why people get annoyed because some of those arguments were almost certainly, in my view, made in bad faith as they completely ignore the text, they don't just interpret it differently. And I've not seen Stark Fans 'scream' anything. Of course, screaming won't discredit the point, and people have no need to even try that, because there are multiple sound arguments based on the text already defeating it.

[Craving Peaches]

4 minutes ago, Darth Sidious said:

the god-like Targaryens and regular humans.

What?

4 minutes ago, Darth Sidious said:

Maybe they were biological and physical perfection.

Well that's not true. You only need to look at Aerys.

4 minutes ago, Darth Sidious said:

To quote Martin, “ gods do not mate with beasts.” It could mean the Targaryens damaged their genes when they married outside of the Valyrian pool. 

Are you seriously saying everyone in the story who is not a Targaryen is an animal? Also, that is not how genetics work. The genes won't be 'damaged' by outbreeding, the chance of inheritance is what would be affected. If anything outbreeding would be beneficial as it would strengthen the gene pool.

Also, when did George say that?

Edited January 25, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[StarkTullies]

41 minutes ago, Darth Sidious said:

god-like Targaryens

The worst of the Targaryens think they are god-like, but they certainly are not.  Spawned by their own arrogance, that is the Targaryens' self-made justification for their racial supremacy and for fornicating with their siblings to avoid the taint "lesser men", which is typical propaganda spouted by many tyrannical racist regimes throughout real-life history.

Do you sincerely believe that George Martin is writing a story about an incestuous superior race saving the world?

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by StarkTullies

[Angel Eyes]

13 minutes ago, StarkTullies said:

The worst of the Targaryens think they are god-like, but they certainly are not.  Spawned by their own arrogance, that is the Targaryens' self-made justification for their racial supremacy and for fornicating with their siblings to avoid the taint "lesser men", which is typical propaganda spouted by many tyrannical racist regimes throughout real-life history.

Do you sincerely believe that George Martin is writing a story about an incestuous superior race saving the world?

 

Unless Martin is writing a deconstruction of that type.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

39 minutes ago, StarkTullies said:

Do you sincerely believe that George Martin is writing a story about an incestuous superior race saving the world?

It's not about a race, though. It's about a specific family. As far as we know, the Targaryens are the only Valyrian family who have prophetic dreams.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

It's not about a race, though. It's about a specific family. As far as we know, the Targaryens are the only Valyrian family who have prophetic dreams.

The whole race of them practiced Blood magic, I’d find it hard to believe they were the only ones with prophetic visions. Like the Starks aren’t the only ones that can Warg.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

To be clear, anyone who thinks a certain family will be the main heroes of the story or the main villains has another thing coming. None of the Starks are crazy, or evil (yet, Arya has a chance) and none of the Targaryens are gonna be insane (Jon or Dany). Both ancient bloodlines are going to have to come together to save the world from the Others and I believe it’s Jon who will unite them. Daenerys will bring her magic blood that can take dragons and Bran will bring the visions he sees through the weirdwoods (which I’m certain will help fight the Others) I also think it’s a distinct possibility that Bran will Warg one of the dragons during the fight. Jon’s role will be uniting all the warring parties together and his blood of ice and fire will aid him and bringing the North back into the fold with the rest of the 7K while his experiences in the North will bring the 7K into the fight with others by convincing Daenerys. And I’m betting that Jon will survive the fight against all odds, and be King by the end. Where I’d expect he’d not only be miserable, but I’m not certain he’ll be a great king. I think Bran and Sansa will do most of the political work. Possibly Daenerys if she survives. But the game of thrones will never end, even after he saves the world.

[Rosetta Stone]

We obviously do not know who will go insane but the OP is right.  If the condition that Rhaegar fathered Jon is met then he has the same chances to go insane as any Targaryen.  Further, it looks like the men in the family were the ones going insane.  So there is that going against Jon.