Jon Snow is likely to go insane

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

The whole race of them practiced Blood magic, I’d find it hard to believe they were the only ones with prophetic visions.

But it definitely seems that way, since they were the only ones to survive the Doom.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

I haven't read all the responses, just replying to the OP. 

I disagree about Arya. The rest of it, you might be on to something. I mean it makes sense right? I'm hopeful neither go mad but I see where you're coming from with this. Nice post. 

What do you make of the mad king himself being born of two Targ parents though?  Could his mother have not been a Targ somehow? Hmm. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

On 1/16/2023 at 4:33 PM, James West said:

The incidence of madness is not even high.  The Targaryens were in the spotlight for 300 years and only Aerys and Aerion were mental.  I don't think Dany will go mental.  

I am biased to M + L = J (M = Mance Rayder).  You are right though.  R + L = J puts Jon at a greater risk for madness if it truly runs in the family and not some sabotage from the Maesters poisoning the Targaryens.  

Haha really?! Got a link to any good threads on that? It's been my own silly head canon for years. 

[sifth]

4 hours ago, Darth Sidious said:

Most of the hate threads are coming from the Stark fandom. 
This excellent thread from Damsel makes a very valid point. The Stark fans can scream “troll” and “hate thread” all they want and it won’t discredit the very valid point made by Damsel in distress. 

This is either a joke or a lie. I'll be nice and say it comes from the former though.

[StarkTullies]

9 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Unless Martin is writing a deconstruction of that type.

I agree that he is.  There's no doubt that some of the Targaryens had a "god complex".  What little information we have heavily implies that Rhaegar believes that he was meant to save the world, and later changed his mind that his children were instead.  Aegon's song is "the song of ice and fire", according to Rhaegar, according to Dany's vision.  But Aegon is probably dead, and in the small chance Young Griff is real, his reign won't last long.  This story is partially about deluded people thinking they are meant to save the world... not about deluded people who think they are meant to save the world actually doing so.

9 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

It's not about a race, though. It's about a specific family. As far as we know, the Targaryens are the only Valyrian family who have prophetic dreams.

Many Targaryens and non-Targaryens have prophetic dreams.  I'd be surprised if other Valyrians didn't have dreams, but the vast majority of them died 400 years earlier so we aren't going to learn about it now.

I'm not sure what defines the classification of different "races", or maybe that is just an outdated inaccurate term.  Do the Valyrians' purple eyes and silver-gold hair make them a distinct race?  The whole "god-like" claim implies that people who make that claim see them as a different (and superior) race.  But whether we are talking about race or family, the notion that Targaryens are god-like and superior is equally deplorable to me.

7 hours ago, Rosetta Stone said:

We obviously do not know who will go insane but the OP is right.  If the condition that Rhaegar fathered Jon is met then he has the same chances to go insane as any Targaryen.  Further, it looks like the men in the family were the ones going insane.  So there is that going against Jon.

Rhaenyra wasn't making rational decisions during her "kill all bastards" campaign and other atrocious acts, although that might have been tyranny rather than madness.  Haelena certainly went mad.  As many people have pointed out, not that many Targaryens went mad.  Considering that there is far more information about the male Targaryens than female Targaryens, of course there is more information about mad Targaryen men than Targaryen women.  But there were mad Targaryen women.

Jon is half-Targaryen; Daenerys is born of incest.  Jon's Targaryen father was certainly more stable than Daenerys's Mad King father, who was a raving lunatic.  And who says that Dany's mother wasn't also mad?  Rhaella didn't have the authority to demonstrate her madness through tyrannical policy, and I doubt the abuse and rape from her psychopathic brother helped her mental state.  Other people only witnessed a secluded and traumatized queen they were too fearful to protect, but none of them were looking for signs of madness because they didn't care about her mental state or well-being.

So going by genes alone, Dany's chances are still greater than Jon's of going mad.  Circumstances are another matter, but this thread is about genetic disposition.  Again, I don't think either of them will go mad.  But "only Targaryen men go mad" is not a thing.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

6 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

I agree that he is.  There's no doubt that some of the Targaryens had a "god complex".  What little information we have heavily implies that Rhaegar believes that he was meant to save the world, and later changed his mind that his children were instead.  Aegon's song is "the song of ice and fire", according to Rhaegar, according to Dany's vision.  But Aegon is probably dead, and in the small chance Young Griff is real, his reign won't last long.  This story is partially about deluded people thinking they are meant to save the world... not about deluded people who think they are meant to save the world actually doing so.

Many Targaryens and non-Targaryens have prophetic dreams.  I'd be surprised if other Valyrians didn't have dreams, but the vast majority of them died 400 years earlier so we aren't going to learn about it now.

I'm not sure what defines the classification of different "races", or maybe that is just an outdated inaccurate term.  Do the Valyrians' purple eyes and silver-gold hair make them a distinct race?  The whole "god-like" claim implies that people who make that claim see them as a different (and superior) race.  But whether we are talking about race or family, the notion that Targaryens are god-like and superior is equally deplorable to me.

Rhaenyra wasn't making rational decisions during her "kill all bastards" campaign and other atrocious acts, although that might have been tyranny rather than madness.  Haelena certainly went mad.  As many people have pointed out, not that many Targaryens went mad.  Considering that there is far more information about the male Targaryens than female Targaryens, of course there is more information about mad Targaryen men than Targaryen women.  But there were mad Targaryen women.

Jon is half-Targaryen; Daenerys is born of incest.  Jon's Targaryen father was certainly more stable than Daenerys's Mad King father, who was a raving lunatic.  And who says that Dany's mother wasn't also mad?  Rhaella didn't have the authority to demonstrate her madness through tyrannical policy, and I doubt the abuse and rape from her psychopathic brother helped her mental state.  Other people only witnessed a secluded and traumatized queen they were too fearful to protect, but none of them were looking for signs of madness because they didn't care about her mental state or well-being.

So going by genes alone, Dany's chances are still greater than Jon's of going mad.  Circumstances are another matter, but this thread is about genetic disposition.  Again, I don't think either of them will go mad.  But "only Targaryen men go mad" is not a thing.

I think the Targaryens and the other 39 dragon families of Valyria all have/had literal blood of the dragon in their veins. From centuries of human experimentation and blood magic conducted by Valyrians and the GEotD. It’s how the valyrians gained control over dragons in the first place. The more the Targs bred with Westerosi families the more their blood deluded. Leading to a loss of control of the dragons.

[StarkTullies]

6 hours ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

I think the Targaryens and the other 39 dragon families of Valyria all have/had literal blood of the dragon in their veins. From centuries of human experimentation and blood magic conducted by Valyrians and the GEotD. It’s how the valyrians gained control over dragons in the first place. The more the Targs bred with Westerosi families the more their blood deluded. Leading to a loss of control of the dragons.

This is certainly a valid theory, and a common one, but that's not what I think.  I think the first Valyrian dragonriders were like Nettles: they tamed them by other means, not through bloodmagic.  While it is possible that Nettles was a "dragonseed", it is also possible that she wasn't... and I think one purpose of Nettles in the story (among others) is to show the Targaryen claim of genetic dragon-riding superiority is utter crap.

Shouldn't Valeryons have just as much "dragon blood" as the Targaryens?  They didn't not ride dragons because they couldn't, but because it was claimed that only Targaryens can ride dragons. Did any non-Targaryens/non-"dragonseeds" in the story even try to ride dragons other than Nettles (who was successful)?  Quentyn might have successfully tamed Viserion if Rhaegal hadn't roasted him when some other fool attacked Rhaegal.  (And remember, Drogon tried to roast Dany too.)  Yes, the Martells have a "drop" of dragon blood in them... but if a drop is all it takes and considering how common it was for Targaryens to rape new brides on the "first night", probably half of southern Westeros has a "drop" of dragon blood in them by now.

Also, if only Targaryens can ride dragons, then why did the "best Targaryen ruler" King Jaeherys threaten to burn Braavos to the ground over some stolen dragon eggs?  The Braavosi couldn't do anything with the dragons because dragons will only obey Targaryens, right?  Jaeherys said it but didn't seem to believe it, based on his actions.

I'm not sure the Targaryens ever lost control over their dragons.  The Targaryens seemed to control the dragons just fine until they all died out.

The counter-claim is that the Targaryens diluted their blood, and fair enough.  But most of these pro-Targaryen arguments are really pro-Daenerys arguments.  If Targaryen blood is so diluted that they aren't special anymore, then Daenerys isn't special either.  Her parents being brother and sister, and her grandparents being brother and sister, doesn't undilute her blood (though it is apparent that some people on this forum don't seem to grasp that).

Just in general, George Martin's world is magical, but the magic is very subdued compared to many other fantasies.  There isn't much glaring magic in the current story, and I doubt there was thousands of years earlier either.  The fantastical stories of the past are myths that developed over time, but in George Martin's mind I doubt they are what "really happened".  I don't think the Bloodstone Emperor or Night's King or Azor Ahai or whoever else existed in the way they are told, or at all.  And I don't think the sheepherder Valyrians did anything with the dragons other than tame them with sheep... just like Nettles did.

All of this is a massive tangent from whether or not Jon will go insane... but to connect it back to the main topic, I don't think "blood" is nearly as important as the characters in the story think it is, or as many real-world fans think it is.  Products of incest, unlimited power, and toxic ideologies about superiority had more impact on Targaryen madness than blood.  Dany has two of those traits going on three, and Jon has zero of those traits.

[the trees have eyes]

Well, Arya isn't mad, Jon's father, Rhaegar, wasn't mad, Dany isn't mad and Jon himself isn't mad.  None of them showed or show any signs of madness.  Dany's brother and father did - and quite obviously so - but that just highlights the contrast.

Have Arya, Dany and Jon made difficult decisions, sometimes poor decisions and sometimes out of anger that we either disagree with or are troubled by?  Yes.  Which ones and how much is up to the reader.  Have they done anything to indicate the onset of madness?  No.  But it's an easy way to register dislike of a character or goad other forum users which seems a bit silly really.

[TheLastWolf]

suthmud

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Well, Arya isn't mad, Jon's father, Rhaegar, wasn't mad, Dany isn't mad and Jon himself isn't mad.  None of them showed or show any signs of madness.  Dany's brother and father did - and quite obviously so - but that just highlights the contrast.

Have Arya, Dany and Jon made difficult decisions, sometimes poor decisions and sometimes out of anger that we either disagree with or are troubled by?  Yes.  Which ones and how much is up to the reader.  Have they done anything to indicate the onset of madness?  No.  But it's an easy way to register dislike of a character or goad other forum users which seems a bit silly really.

I agree though I'm not sure Viserys was really mad. Definitely showed some signs though. 

I think everything has just been discussed so thoroughly that people get bored & start saying things just to get a reaction, but yeah, that's the beauty of the books right? That we can hate Theon so much for betraying the Starks all while understanding why he betrayed the Starks & then feel nothing but pity for him because of the hell he has went through, says much about George's writing, IMO. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

suthmud

Not sure what this means but I put a laugh emoji on your post because I just read your signature! LOL 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

On 1/25/2023 at 9:48 PM, sifth said:

This is either a joke or a lie. I'll be nice and say it comes from the former though.

Things flipflop all the time. I haven't been combing through the forums enough lately to know where the hate threads are coming from right now but Jon & Dany both have been the subject of many of them. Might be Stark fans making Dany hate threads right now, soon it'll be Dany fans making Stark hate threads & on & on we go. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

On 1/26/2023 at 4:06 AM, StarkTullies said:

agree that he is.  There's no doubt that some of the Targaryens had a "god complex".  What little information we have heavily implies that Rhaegar believes that he was meant to save the world, and later changed his mind that his children were instead.  Aegon's song is "the song of ice and fire", according to Rhaegar, according to Dany's vision.  But Aegon is probably dead, and in the small chance Young Griff is real, his reign won't last long.  This story is partially about deluded people thinking they are meant to save the world... not about deluded people who think they are meant to save the world actually doing so.

Right, you know whats so frustrating to me? That we don't know why Rhaegar thought he or his children would save the world. Where did he find this info? What made him believe it so? By all accounts he was sane, fairly normal person. Something convinced him that this information took precedence & priority over all esle. At any rate prophecy is a sword with no hilt right? Who knows why Rhaegar thought it would be him or his child but he may not be wrong still. It still could be his child that was meant to save the world. Maybe his child & his niece? It's all convoluted but I'm saving judgement on Rhaegar until we hear all the info. 

Someone has to save the world though & I think regardless of Georges tendency toward destruction he won't end the series with the world being overran with Others. He said some people will survive the series, IIRC, so someone, deluded or not, thinks they are meant to save the world & they probably are & will, if you asked me. 

On 1/26/2023 at 4:06 AM, StarkTullies said:

Many Targaryens and non-Targaryens have prophetic dreams.  I'd be surprised if other Valyrians didn't have dreams, but the vast majority of them died 400 years earlier so we aren't going to learn about it now.

Who all has prophetic dreams? I can't think of any non-Targ's to have them. I'd bet the Valyrians had them too though. 

 

On 1/26/2023 at 4:06 AM, StarkTullies said:

Jon is half-Targaryen; Daenerys is born of incest.  Jon's Targaryen father was certainly more stable than Daenerys's Mad King father, who was a raving lunatic.  And who says that Dany's mother wasn't also mad?  Rhaella didn't have the authority to demonstrate her madness through tyrannical policy, and I doubt the abuse and rape from her psychopathic brother helped her mental state.  Other people only witnessed a secluded and traumatized queen they were too fearful to protect, but none of them were looking for signs of madness because they didn't care about her mental state or well-being.

I don't know how accurate it is, I assume it is but I didn't look it up, but there is a post above that lays out which Targ's have went insane & it seemed to indicate a half-Targ is more likely to go insane than a full Targ but genetics, heredity, etc are all screwy in universe so who knows what the real chances are. 

I agree though, Dany's father was mad, Dany was born of incest (though I don't know if that makes her more likely to be insane in universe) irl of course problems arise from incest but Targ's are different. I wonder if when a Targ baby is born deformed, looking like a dragon or reptile, that's the in universe equivalent of birth defects spawned from incest? Like you said, Jon's father was much more stable whether we are talking about Rhaegar, presumably his birth father, or Ned who raised him. Contrast that with Dany who was raised by Viserys mostly & I'd say that would be enough to tip the scales toward Dany being more likely to go insane, but who knows where George will go with it. 

 

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

Jon does have a chance considering he is coming back from a traumatic death. But it seems we are talking about genetics, so no. Compared to Daenerys, a girl born from incestuous rape by a batshit crazy father, she is far more likely to go mad than Jon. But neither of them will, so this conversation doesn’t even matter

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

19 minutes ago, King Robb of Winterfell said:

Jon does have a chance considering he is coming back from a traumatic death. But it seems we are talking about genetics, so no. Compared to Daenerys, a girl born from incestuous rape by a batshit crazy father, she is far more likely to go mad than Jon. But neither of them will, so this conversation doesn’t even matter

But how do we know? I agree that's how it works irl but not necessarily in universe. The full Targ's, born of incest, seem less likely to go crazy than the ones that are half-Targ. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

22 minutes ago, King Robb of Winterfell said:

Jon does have a chance considering he is coming back from a traumatic death. But it seems we are talking about genetics, so no. Compared to Daenerys, a girl born from incestuous rape by a batshit crazy father, she is far more likely to go mad than Jon. But neither of them will, so this conversation doesn’t even matter

Also, Jon has some of the same genetics as Dany so I'm not sure. 

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

Just now, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Also, Jon has some of the same genetics as Dany so I'm not sure. 

But he has the addition of Lyanna’s genes.

[kissdbyfire]

26 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right, you know whats so frustrating to me? That we don't know why Rhaegar thought he or his children would save the world. Where did he find this info? What made him believe it so? By all accounts he was sane, fairly normal person. Something convinced him that this information took precedence & priority over all esle. At any rate prophecy is a sword with no hilt right?

I think the line in the books is that magic is a sword without a hilt? But we can argue that prophecies are magic? 

 

26 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Who knows why Rhaegar thought it would be him or his child but he may not be wrong still. It still could be his child that was meant to save the world. Maybe his child & his niece? It's all convoluted but I'm saving judgement on Rhaegar until we hear all the info. 

What niece? He didn't have any nieces or nephews, since neither of his siblings had any children. Agree irt saving judgemente for Rhaegar until we have all the facts, or at least some facts given that right now we basically have nothing! 

26 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Someone has to save the world though & I think regardless of Georges tendency toward destruction he won't end the series with the world being overran with Others.

I'm not sure I'd say Martin has a tendency towards destruction, that's too harsh!

I do think he comes up with pretty horrific scenarios though, but for the most part they do serve the story. Most of these horrible situations characters are put in serve to give us the 'heart in conflict with itself',  where these characters have to make terrible and hard decisions, always with consequences. And they all make mistakes, and hopefully learn from their mistakes. Or so we hope. 

I agree, I don't think we'll get: 'And the Others will eliminate all life on Planetos, the end.'

 

26 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He said some people will survive the series, IIRC, so someone, deluded or not, thinks they are meant to save the world & they probably are & will, if you asked me. 

Not sure what you mean here? That someone deluded will the the great hero of the story?

 

26 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Who all has prophetic dreams? I can't think of any non-Targ's to have them. I'd bet the Valyrians had them too though. 

Jojen, the Ghost of High Heart, Mel, Jaime, to name a few. I'd add Bran and Jon as well, even if we don't have confirmation that some of their dreams were prophetic.

 

26 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't know how accurate it is, I assume it is but I didn't look it up, but there is a post above that lays out which Targ's have went insane & it seemed to indicate a half-Targ is more likely to go insane than a full Targ but genetics, heredity, etc are all screwy in universe so who knows what the real chances are. 

Yeah, genetics on Planetos clearly is whatever Marting wants it to be, so who knows where he'll go with any of this.

I do think a lot of the Targaryen madness thing is propaganda, a spin, even if a few were undoubtedly batshit crazy.

26 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree though, Dany's father was mad, Dany was born of incest (though I don't know if that makes her more likely to be insane in universe) irl of course problems arise from incest but Targ's are different. I wonder if when a Targ baby is born deformed, looking like a dragon or reptile, that's the in universe equivalent of birth defects spawned from incest? Like you said, Jon's father was much more stable whether we are talking about Rhaegar, presumably his birth father, or Ned who raised him. Contrast that with Dany who was raised by Viserys mostly & I'd say that would be enough to tip the scales toward Dany being more likely to go insane, but who knows where George will go with it. 

Yeah, all we can do is speculate on this at this point. And given how little actual verifiable information we have, it's nearly impossible to reach a conclusion. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Just now, King Robb of Winterfell said:

But he has the addition of Lyanna’s genes.

Yeah for sure. Plus he was raised better. There are pros & cons for each, i think. 

[LongRider]

24 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think the line in the books is that magic is a sword without a hilt? But we can argue that prophecies are magic?

Here's what he said about prophecies “...Prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is... and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams... Prophecy will bite your prick off everytime,”

A bit harsh, but it gets one's attention.