Jon Snow is likely to go insane

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Here's what he said about prophecies “...Prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is... and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams... Prophecy will bite your prick off everytime,”

A bit harsh, but it gets one's attention.

Yikes, sounds painful!

I was referring to this one here:

ADwD, Jon VI

Jon glanced over his shoulder. The shadow was there, just as she had said, etched in moonlight against the Wall. A girl in grey on a dying horse, he thought. Coming here, to you. Arya. He turned back to the red priestess. Jon could feel her warmth. She has power. The thought came unbidden, seizing him with iron teeth, but this was not a woman he cared to be indebted to, not even for his little sister. "Dalla told me something once. Val's sister, Mance Rayder's wife. She said that sorcery was a sword without a hilt.  There is no safe way to grasp it."

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

17 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think the line in the books is that magic is a sword without a hilt? But we can argue that prophecies are magic? 

haha! I am forever messing up my words. But yeah, I would say prophecy is a form of magic

18 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

What niece? He didn't have any nieces or nephews, since neither of his siblings had any children. Agree irt saving judgemente for Rhaegar until we have all the facts, or at least some facts given that right now we basically have nothing! 

Goodness, apparently I'm having a rough day. That was supposed to say his daughter. But yes, definitely agree. 

19 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I'm not sure I'd say Martin has a tendency towards destruction, that's too harsh!

I don't think so either but the poster I was replying to had a convo with someone else irt Martin being destructive. 

19 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Not sure what you mean here? That someone deluded will the the great hero of the story?

The person I was talking to said "his story is partially about deluded people thinking they are meant to save the world... not about deluded people who think they are meant to save the world actually doing so." So I was kind of disagreeing with that. Saying I think there are people who will save the world, they aren't delusional. 

21 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I do think he comes up with pretty horrific scenarios though, but for the most part they do serve the story. Most of these horrible situations characters are put in serve to give us the 'heart in conflict with itself',  where these characters have to make terrible and hard decisions, always with consequences. And they all make mistakes, and hopefully learn from their mistakes. Or so we hope. 

Oh I agree. He likes the shock factor as well, I assume. Brilliant series really. 

21 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Jojen, the Ghost of High Heart, Mel, Jaime, to name a few. I'd add Bran and Jon as well, even if we don't have confirmation that some of their dreams were prophetic.

They are definitely prophetic -  Jojen & the Ghost of high heart for sure. Mel I guess I didn't consider because she never seems to know how to interpret her ability. But do any of them have prophetic dreams? I don't think Bran & Jon's are prophetic, though I imagine Bran will have some prophetic ability if he doesn't now, but they seem more to be seeing the present through their wolves eyes right? Not to say that isn't magical. Jaime had a prophetic dream potentially but I don't know we can say for sure since it hasn't panned out. Jojen & HH don't have dreams do they? 

33 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

eah, genetics on Planetos clearly is whatever Marting wants it to be, so who knows where he'll go with any of this.

I do think a lot of the Targaryen madness thing is propaganda, a spin, even if a few were undoubtedly batshit crazy.

For sure. I agree. We have some history & we aren't really tossing a coin with Targ's according to that. There were plenty more that aren't noted to be mad than that are. 

34 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, all we can do is speculate on this at this point. And given how little actual verifiable information we have, it's nearly impossible to reach a conclusion. 

Oh my I know. It's all up in there air. 

[LongRider]

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yikes, sounds painful!

I was referring to this one here

Prophesy was mentioned in that post so I ran with it!    No worries!  

Edited January 27, 2023 by LongRider

[kissdbyfire]

14 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

haha! I am forever messing up my words. But yeah, I would say prophecy is a form of magic

Yeah, I agree. Was more messing around. 

14 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Goodness, apparently I'm having a rough day. That was supposed to say his daughter. But yes, definitely agree. 

Been there, one time too many!

14 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think so either but the poster I was replying to had a convo with someone else irt Martin being destructive. 

The person I was talking to said "his story is partially about deluded people thinking they are meant to save the world... not about deluded people who think they are meant to save the world actually doing so." So I was kind of disagreeing with that. Saying I think there are people who will save the world, they aren't delusional. 

Gotcha! And agree to a degree. I think it's likely that we'll see several combos of deluded/heroic still. I also don't think we'll have a 'one true hero' type thing. More like a team effort where many will be important, they'll fuck up and make up for it, etc. 

14 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Oh I agree. He likes the shock factor as well, I assume. Brilliant series really. 

Ditto.

14 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

They are definitely prophetic -  Jojen & the Ghost of high heart for sure. Mel I guess I didn't consider because she never seems to know how to interpret her ability. But do any of them have prophetic dreams?

Jojen has what he calls green dreams that are clearly prophetic, same for the GoHH. Mel, too. I mean, just because she misinterprets things often doesn't mean it's less prophetic IMO. And with her it's more fire-gazing visions but iirc she has a few dreams as well? But don't quote me on this.

I think Bran has or at least had prophetic dreams back in AGoT, and Jon has some dreams that could prove to be prophetic. And there's also the dreams Jon, Arya, Bran have while skinchanging into their wolves and/or other animals, though I don't think I'd call those prophetic. 

 

14 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think Bran & Jon's are prophetic, though I imagine Bran will have some prophetic ability if he doesn't now, but they seem more to be seeing the present through their wolves eyes right? Not to say that isn't magical. Jaime had a prophetic dream potentially but I don't know we can say for sure since it hasn't panned out. Jojen & HH don't have dreams do they? 

ETA: Sorry, missed this part.

ASoS, Arya IV

I dreamt I saw a shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden stag, aye. I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings. I dreamt of a roaring river and a woman that was a fish. Dead she drifted, with red tears on her cheeks, but when her eyes did open, oh, I woke from terror. All this I dreamt, and more. Do you have gifts for me, to pay me for my dreams?"

ACoK, Bran IV

"I don't want to. Anyway, it's only dreams. Maester Luwin says dreams might mean anything or nothing."

"My brother dreams as other boys do, and those dreams might mean anything," Meera said, "but the green dreams are different."

14 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

For sure. I agree. We have some history & we aren't really tossing a coin with Targ's according to that. There were plenty more that aren't noted to be mad than that are. 

Oh my I know. It's all up in there air. 

All up in the air, and we're here trying to figure stuff out w/ almost nothing to go on!

Edited January 27, 2023 by kissdbyfire

[sifth]

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Things flipflop all the time. I haven't been combing through the forums enough lately to know where the hate threads are coming from right now but Jon & Dany both have been the subject of many of them. Might be Stark fans making Dany hate threads right now, soon it'll be Dany fans making Stark hate threads & on & on we go. 

Yea, but some of them are silly at best and disturbing at their worst. It's really quite insane.

Edited January 27, 2023 by sifth

[TheLastWolf]

2 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Not sure what this means but I put a laugh emoji on your post because I just read your signature! LOL 

That means more than what these hate mongers ever will

And thanks, people dont usually catch my signature because...its small. ahem

The subject is, well, subject to change. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, I agree. Was more messing around. 

Haha no worries, me too

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Been there, one time too many!

My brain is FRIED anymore lol. Just talking with a co-worker & she said "Do you remember..." & we both started laughing because we both know good & well I don't remember unless I write it down lol 

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Gotcha! And agree to a degree. I think it's likely that we'll see several combos of deluded/heroic still. I also don't think we'll have a 'one true hero' type thing. More like a team effort where many will be important, they'll fuck up and make up for it, etc. 

Absolutely. 

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Jojen has what he calls green dreams that are clearly prophetic,

Idk why I was thinking it wasn't a dream but clearly it is else it wouldn't be called a green dream. 

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

same for the GoHH. Mel, too. I mean, just because she misinterprets things often doesn't mean it's less prophetic IMO. And with her it's more fire-gazing visions but iirc she has a few dreams as well? But don't quote me on this.

Yeah, definitely prophetic I was just thinking they didn't have dreams. I don't recall Mel having one but I totally could be wrong & for some reason didn't think GoHH's prophetic abilites came in a dream, but clearly I'm not remembering things very well! 

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

ASoS, Arya IV

I dreamt I saw a shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden stag, aye. I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings. I dreamt of a roaring river and a woman that was a fish. Dead she drifted, with red tears on her cheeks, but when her eyes did open, oh, I woke from terror. All this I dreamt, and more. Do you have gifts for me, to pay me for my dreams?"

ACoK, Bran IV

"I don't want to. Anyway, it's only dreams. Maester Luwin says dreams might mean anything or nothing."

"My brother dreams as other boys do, and those dreams might mean anything," Meera said, "but the green dreams are different."

Ahh! Yes. Well I'm just wrong. LOL 

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

All up in the air, and we're here trying to figure stuff out w/ almost nothing to go on!

ikr! How miserable! LOL We definitely need some more text. 

Did you watch HotD? If so, what did you think? I enjoyed it much more than the abomination myself. 

[kissdbyfire]

13 minutes ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

My brain is FRIED anymore lol. Just talking with a co-worker & she said "Do you remember..." & we both started laughing because we both know good & well I don't remember unless I write it down lol 

Same here. I’m lucky coz my dear spouse’s brain is in even worse condition, so whatever happens I just tell him, ‘that’s what happened/we said/whatever, you just can’t remember’ and I get away w/ it even though I’ve no idea what I’m talking about for the most part.

13 minutes ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, definitely prophetic I was just thinking they didn't have dreams. I don't recall Mel having one but I totally could be wrong & for some reason didn't think GoHH's prophetic abilites came in a dream, but clearly I'm not remembering things very well! 

I wasn’t sure but I remembered something to do w/ dreams w/ Mel, so I checked. 
She does dream, she avoids dreams b/c she thinks they’re the ‘whisperings of the Great Other (maybe BR? Since he does try to communicate w/ her but she doesn’t understand any of it, as usual), but it's not said that her dreams are prophetic. 
 

ADwD, Melisandre

"Almost dawn, my lady."

Dawn. Another day is given us, R'hllor be praised. The terrors of the night recede. Melisandre had spent the night in her chair by the fire, as she often did. With Stannis gone, her bed saw little use. She had no time for sleep, with the weight of the world upon her shoulders. And she feared to dream. Sleep is a little death, dreams the whisperings of the Other, who would drag us all into his eternal night. She would sooner sit bathed in the ruddy glow of her red lord's blessed flames, her cheeks flushed by the wash of heat as if by a lover's kisses. Some nights she drowsed, but never for more than an hour. One day, Melisandre prayed, she would not sleep at all. One day she would be free of dreams. Melony, she thought. Lot Seven.

That “Melony Lot 7 in the end there seems to be a dream that has plagued her? And understandably if she was sold as a slave.

13 minutes ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

ikr! How miserable! LOL We definitely need some more text. 

Definitely. Definitely, definitely, definitely!!!

13 minutes ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Did you watch HotD? If so, what did you think? I enjoyed it much more than the abomination myself. 

I didn’t. I’ve heard good things from friends who also hated the abomination, so that’s encouraging. But the first series of the abomination was good, too. So I’m taking a ‘once bitten’ approach to this. Maybe I’ll watch it a few years from now when the show is over or close to. That is, if it remains good throughout and doesn’t deteriorate into a steaming pile. One show I won’t ever come anywhere near though, not w/ a 10ft pole, is “The Wandering Adventures of Jon Snow & FakeTormund Beyond the Wall”. Same for anything w/ D&E; at least until we have all of those novellas and it’s verifiably good!

[LongRider]

20 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

“The Wandering Adventures of Jon Snow & FakeTormund Beyond the Wall”

 

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

On 1/14/2023 at 9:24 AM, Damsel in Distress said:

I posted a comment on this in 2017. 

If R + L = J is true, then Jon Snow is the one who will go insane.  He will have incidences of insanity from the Stark as well as the Targaryen side.  His kin, Arya Stark, is already insane. 

 

I edited, updated, and re-posted below:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

Rumors of Targaryen Madness is an Exaggeration.  And a slander against the ruling House Targaryen. 

 

The prevalence of the madness that runs in the family is exaggerated.  A careful study of the Targaryen lineage shows that this madness is not as prevalent as their enemies would have us believe.

 

    Targaryen + Targaryen = Maegor the Cruel
    Arryn + Targaryen = Rhaenyra
    Hightower + Targaryen = Aegon II
    Rogare + Targaryen = Aegon IV
    Velaryon + Targaryen = Baelor the Blessed
    Dayne + Targaryen = Aerion Brightflame
    Kiera + Targaryen = Vaela
    Targaryen + Targaryen = Aerys II

 

In red - female parent. Non-Targaryen female parent. 

Italics – unclear whether these people were mad or simply just cruel. Vaela is likely someone who just had a below average mental capacity. 

What interests me most is that the majority of the so-called “mad” members of the family were not the direct result of T + T but rather the result of what appears to be normal pairings.  A second item of note is that the madness happens more often when the mother comes from outside the family.  This means the carriers of the madness are the male Targaryens.  Thirdly, because we are dealing with a fantasy world in which real genetics may not completely hold true, we can assume that anyone whose father is a Targaryen will have an equal chance of going mad as any other member of the family with a Targaryen father.  Also note that we have not had a female Targaryen of whom we can clearly point out as mad.  None.  Rhaenyra was a b* but being a difficult person does not make one mad.  Maegor was cruel but that doesn’t mean he was mad.  If cruelty alone make one mad then Tywin and Stannis could be labeled insane. 

 

Implications are as follows:

 

    1.  The Targaryens are the most prominent family in the series of A Song of Ice and Fire.  I do not believe George R R Martin will end this family line.  I think the family just needed a fresh start and based on my theory that the males carry the potentially damaging gene it makes sense to eliminate the male line and begin anew with a perfect Targaryen female.  Who is, of course, the Mother of Dragons herself, Daenerys Targaryen.
    2.  The Targaryen dragons also needed a refresh.  The heroine delivered once more and hatched three eggs.
    3.  Daenerys Targaryen is just fine.  She will not go mad.  Her future children are not going to go mad. 
    4.  Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon.  Should this theory of his parentage prove to be true, that Rhaegar is the father and Lyanna Stark the mother, it is very likely that it will be Jon who will go insane.

 My verdict?  Jon has a much greater chance of going mad than Daenerys. 

Jon inherited the faulty gene from Rhaegar (If he is the son of Prince Rhaegar).  His chances of going crazy like Aerys is higher because of his gender.  The men of the family have this fault.  I proposed in my "Daenerys is Azor Ahai Reborn" essay that the Targaryens needed a fresh start.  For that reason, the male line died out.  Daenerys, the female who will start the new family, is not a carrier of the gene.  Drogo's funeral fire symbolically burned away all the genetic baggages of the past.  It is like the Phoenix reborn. 

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

3 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Jon inherited the faulty gene from Rhaegar (If he is the son of Prince Rhaegar).  His chances of going crazy like Aerys is higher because of his gender.  The men of the family have this fault.  I proposed in my "Daenerys is Azor Ahai Reborn" essay that the Targaryens needed a fresh start.  For that reason, the male line died out.  Daenerys, the female who will start the new family, is not a carrier of the gene.  Drogo's funeral fire symbolically burned away all the genetic baggages of the past.  It is like the Phoenix reborn. 

If we are talking symbolism you may be right. But the genetic aspect of your most is just factually wrong. If Jon or Dany has the gene in them, it is certainly Dany. She Is the inbred offspring of a batshit crazy father raping a traumatized mother. Whilst Jon has more genetic variance with stout Northern genes mixed with inbred Targaryen genes. Neither will go insane though, so the argument Is irrelevant.

[the trees have eyes]

On 1/26/2023 at 1:32 AM, Rosetta Stone said:

We obviously do not know who will go insane but the OP is right.  If the condition that Rhaegar fathered Jon is met then he has the same chances to go insane as any Targaryen.  Further, it looks like the men in the family were the ones going insane.  So there is that going against Jon.

Well this is correct but we have to put it in context: we have Jon as a character for five books and, unlike Viserys, he has shown no hint of "the bad gene".  He's quiet, reflective, introspective, dutiful, rather like both Ned and Rhaegar as it happens, without any "episodes" or red flags.

On 1/16/2023 at 6:53 PM, Victor Newman said:

The Dany haters can't really have it their way.  Either Jon is not Rheagar's son and has no claim to Westeros.  Or he is Rhaegar's son and just as likely to go insane as any Targaryen.  I say Jon has a higher chance of going batshit crazy because of his short temper, wolf bond, and having Lyanna's wolf blood.  The bond with the direwolf make Jon's sanity even more fragile. 

If we acknowledge the theoretical possibility that he will go mad due to genetics we should also acknowledge the very real possibility that he won't, like ninety year-old Father Aemon.  But we have Jon as a character for five books to draw our own conclusions about any propensity towards madness without saying it's a coinflip.  It's a coinflip at birth, it's a coinflip with an unknown character but based on what we know of Jon it's extremely unlikely due to genetics.  The kind of experience, grief and despair that drove Catelyn mad could drive anyone mad but of course at that point genetic inheritance is irrelevant.

The wolf bond is a stabilising, positive force for all of the Stark children and they rely on it very much.  Far from the wolf bond being a vulnerability that increases the chance that Jon will go mad I think it gives him added mental strength and stability: Ghost is often his anchor.  This is true of Bran as well: Jojen's warning not to stay too long in Summer's body or risk losing himself is a key training point a warg school but the bond with Summer is Bran's refuge, not an assault on his sanity.

BTW I like both Dany and Jon.  It took this forum (years ago now) to make me realise people picked sides and I still find that really weird on what is essentially a book club website.

21 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

I agree though I'm not sure Viserys was really mad. Definitely showed some signs though. 

Agreed.  He was on the path not at the destination.  His isolation and irrelevance on The Dothraki Sea galvanised his deterioration and he was drunk at Vaes Dothrak to boot (when even well-balanced individuals make stupid choices).  But he was only ever a minor character from behind whom Dany was meant to emerge so GRRM gives us "Targaryen madness" in outline and at top speed.

20 hours ago, King Robb of Winterfell said:

Jon does have a chance considering he is coming back from a traumatic death. But it seems we are talking about genetics, so no. Compared to Daenerys, a girl born from incestuous rape by a batshit crazy father, she is far more likely to go mad than Jon. But neither of them will, so this conversation doesn’t even matter

He's not dead .  Any more than Bran when "the ground rushed up to meet him".  I know you're arguing he won't go mad but it's worth pointing out that Bran's near-death trauma did not drive him mad either.

19 hours ago, LongRider said:

Here's what he said about prophecies “...Prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is... and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams... Prophecy will bite your prick off everytime,”

A bit harsh, but it gets one's attention.

Quote Of All Quotes 

[LongRider]

3 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

He's not dead .  Any more than Bran when "the ground rushed up to meet him".  I know you're arguing he won't go mad but it's worth pointing out that Bran's near-death trauma did not drive him mad either.

I like your style.

[StarkTullies]

On 1/27/2023 at 10:28 AM, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Who all has prophetic dreams? I can't think of any non-Targ's to have them.

Well definitely Jojen Reed.  The Ghost of High Heart... though she might not count if she is a "child of the forest" (I am skeptical though; she looks like an ancient dwarf woman, and the other "children" that we know of don't look old even though they are ancient).  Jaime had that strange dream right after Harrenhal that may or may not be prophetic in some type of way.  Bran had an entire chapter of his coma dream, though the book didn't tell us what he saw in the far north (though that perhaps was "current events" rather than prophecy).

All of these dreams are metaphorical... but so were the Targaryen dreams.  Daeron (the Drunk) dreamed of a literal dragon dying in Duncan the Tall's arms, when it was actually Prince Baelor who died.

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

On 1/18/2023 at 9:21 PM, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

Historically there have been many more ruling Kings than Queens, so statistically it makes sense that there have been more insane male rulers than female ones. It doesn’t mean Kings lose their mind more than Queens.

The Targaryens are the most famous family in Planetos.  They were all under the public eye in Westeros.  If you look at the family tree, you will see that the OP's conclusions are correct.  Every family member who went crazy were noted and recorded.  It's not like Aegon Frey from House Frey.  Poor Jinglebells will be a footnote in the Frey family history.  The Targaryens are different and each of them, even bastards, who went nutso would have been recorded.  Damsel in Distress is onto something.  It is the males who were born with a tiny broken chip.  The females are as close to perfect as a human can get. 

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

21 minutes ago, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

The Targaryens are the most famous family in Planetos.  They were all under the public eye in Westeros.  If you look at the family tree, you will see that the OP's conclusions are correct.  Every family member who went crazy were noted and recorded.  It's not like Aegon Frey from House Frey.  Poor Jinglebells will be a footnote in the Frey family history.  The Targaryens are different and each of them, even bastards, who went nutso would have been recorded.  Damsel in Distress is onto something.  It is the males who were born with a tiny broken chip.  The females are as close to perfect as a human can get. 

Do you need a napkin for your nose? You got some crap on it. 

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, King Robb of Winterfell said:

Do you need a napkin for your nose? You got some crap on it. 

Come on, it’s true, the Targs are the Kardashians of Westeros!

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Come on, it’s true, the Targs are the Kardashians of Westeros! /cdn-cgi/mirage/6dc3d3eb1a38505cabd90fb7ffd43995f14702a0df4cf40d6136ae67a48e140e/1280/https://asoiaf.westeros.org/uploads/emoticons/default_lol.gif

They can walk on water and then turn it to wine!

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, King Robb of Winterfell said:

They can walk on water and then turn it to wine!

I was thinking more that they’re legends/gods/whatever in their own minds, but that works as well!

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

On 1/27/2023 at 5:05 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Same here. I’m lucky coz my dear spouse’s brain is in even worse condition, so whatever happens I just tell him, ‘that’s what happened/we said/whatever, you just can’t remember’ and I get away w/ it even though I’ve no idea what I’m talking about for the most part.

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Lyanna<3Rhaegar
POSTED TOO SOON