Lord Walder's Dilemma

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

Lord Walder and his family were minding their own affairs and operating the family business of collecting tolls.  Hoster's daughter kidnaps the son of Tywin Lannister.  The elder Lannister slaps back by sending his brutal thugs to murder Walder's small folk, destroy their crops, kill his livestock, and burn his villages.  The Stark father gets arrested in the capital city and later charged with treason.  The son comes to his gates with an army and demands help from the Freys.  Walder is a loyal man to his king.  What the Starks are asking is a dangerous favor.  Keep the gates closed and the Starks will attack.  And if they should win, Hoster Tully would burn The Twins like he did to the Goodbrooks' villages.  Opening the gates means he joins the Stark Rebellion and becomes an enemy of the king.  

Lord Walder had to choose.  He chose to help Robb in exchange for marriages.  Lord Frey and his family fought bravely for the Starks.  The Starks pay them back by insulting them and breaking their sworn oath.  Walder pulls his soldiers back.  One of the savage northman had the nerve to suggests attacking the Freys from behind.  Which shows just how much northern honor is worth.  None.  Robb and the Starks did not send a humble apology.  The Starks did not offer lands, revenues, or anything of value to pay back the Freys, whom they owed.  

Some time later, the Starks get themselves into trouble and are in need of Frey assistance.  The Starks are asking for help.  Lord Walder has dilemma.  To refuse is dangerous.  The Starks might win and they, with the Tullys, will punish the Freys.  Remember what happened to the Goodbrooks.  Remember the mindset of the northman who suggested attacking the Freys from behind in a situation where the Starks were completely in the wrong.  That is the kind of uncertainty and danger Lord Frey will have to negotiate with. 

I have no dislike for the Starks as a whole.  The only Starks that I dislike are Jon, Arya, and Bran.  I am not a fan of the Freys.  I am a fan of Daenerys.  Just so you know where I stand.  If you were Lord Walder, how would you handle the Starks the second time?

 

[Craving Peaches]

If he's so insulted he can just hole up in his castle and refuse to aid Robb anymore because of the insult. At that point Robb's not in a great position to begin another siege, with Winterfell in the hands of the Ironborn, and having lost the Karstarks and Frey soldiers, some ~6000 altogether. Then you can send a raven to Tywin offering fealty if he breaks the siege. No breach of guest right needed.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

27 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

If he's so insulted he can just hole up in his castle and refuse to aid Robb anymore because of the insult. At that point Robb's not in a great position to begin another siege, with Winterfell in the hands of the Ironborn, and having lost the Karstarks and Frey soldiers, some ~6000 altogether. Then you can send a raven to Tywin offering fealty if he breaks the siege. No breach of guest right needed.

Agreed. Walder could have easily turned his back on Robb and watched him get trapped in the Riverlands while Tywin and the Tyrells descended on him. But that wasn’t a sweet enough revenge.

[astarkchoice]

Walder at this point is part of a conspiracy pushed by tywin and the building of a new dynasty , one with freys eveywhere intermingled! No longer social lepers to be avoided or worse marriage pacts walked away from.

This will also possibly defuse the  growing future civil war within his own clan that he cant be blind to at this stage , speading freys everywhere out of the overcrowed twins and making marriage pacts with them desirable again! They will be intermarried to the royal  lannister dynasty by if i recall like 3-4 marriages

From his perspective they now are married to the warden of the north (roose) AND have like 3 marriages incomming to manderlys. They have riverrun (although only  technicaly as  tywins sister joanna is the real boss of that marriage) , 3 other marriages to house lannister one granting the lannisters darry. Littlefinger  their ally  through tywin  is now lord of the trident with harrenhall and with his marriage to lysa will   be  lord of the vale in all but name! 

They have forever ended guest right  but to be fair just as in real life it was always gonna die off ..... on reflection its not a right that means a lot  for a man like walder  whos always surrounded by a.huge squad of freys + doesnt leave the twins   anyway so his own personal safety isnt affected much AND   has so many kids that  hostage taking or assasination/threats  on those  kids is utterly meaningless to  him!! 

[sweetsunray]

4 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

AND have like 3 marriages incomming to manderlys.

Didn't the grooms end up in pies?

[kissdbyfire]

Yes, OP, what could poor Walder have done once Robb went insane! /s

[astarkchoice]

47 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Didn't the grooms end up in pies?

Yeah at least 2 of them are delicious pie

[SeanF]

Well, of all the decisions he might have taken, Walder took the one that condemned his family to complete extermination.

[Rondo]

Robb Stark deserved punishment.  We should begin there.  The question for Walder is how to do it.  Which is not the question from the OP.  Robb was not a king.  He was not worthy to be king.  

Walder has to show at least a willingness to negotiate a second time to avoid further trouble from the Starks.  The Starks would never agree to a hostage to guarantee their oath.  Robb got himself in a tangle.  He broke his oath.  It proves his words cannot be relied upon.  

[Craving Peaches]

22 minutes ago, Rondo said:

Robb Stark deserved punishment.  We should begin there.

Why? Just because he broke a wedding contract doesn't give Walder the right to 'punish' him in whatever manner he sees fit.

23 minutes ago, Rondo said:

Robb was not a king.  He was not worthy to be king.  

Robb was recognised as a king, by Walder himself for that matter, among other people. You cannot deny he was a king just because you don't like him.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Why? Just because he broke a wedding contract doesn't give Walder the right to 'punish' him in whatever manner he sees fit.

Robb was recognised as a king, by Walder himself for that matter, among other people. You cannot deny he was a king just because you don't like him.

My friend once said that Walder should have gotten all the Northmen drunk, and instead of killing them, he should have captured them instead. Send Robb Stark and his highest born nobles bound and gagged to King‘s Landing to face justice for treason, or be used to force a surrender of the North and Riverlands. I feel like that would have been just as much of a violation of guest right as if they’d murdered the lot, though. Or would it?

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I feel like that would have been just as much of a violation of guest right as if they’d murdered the lot, though. Or would it?

From what I understand guest right is all about safe conduct. So if they were not harmed while in the custody of the Freys it might be a loophole. But it would still be a great betrayal which would lead people to think the Freys were untrustworthy.

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Well, of all the decisions he might have taken, Walder took the one that condemned his family to complete extermination.

Doubt it..theres simply too many of them

[astarkchoice]

46 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Why? Just because he broke a wedding contract doesn't give Walder the right to 'punish' him in whatever manner he sees fit.

Robb was recognised as a king, by Walder himself for that matter, among other people. You cannot deny he was a king just because you don't like him.

To be fair he has a right at least to be angry , they had a deal and frey men fought and died for the alliance deal only  for once again a marriage contract  to a frey to be publicly treated  as something beneath any powerful house. Not to mention the suspect death of stevron speeding up the inevitable frey civil war walder has to know is brewing!

 

[Craving Peaches]

5 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

To be fair he has a right at least to be angry , they had a deal and frey men fought and died for the alliance deal only  for once again a marriage contract  to a frey to be publicly treated  as something beneath any powerful house. Not to mention the suspect death of stevron speeding up the inevitable frey civil war walder has to know is brewing!

He has a right to be angry, and I would not begrudge him if he instantly withdrew from supporting Robb, but nothing gave him the right to break guest right and despicably kill Robb and thousands of guests in the way he did.

[Corvo the Crow]

6 hours ago, Gentlemen Prefer Blondes said:

Lord Walder and his family were minding their own affairs and operating the family business of collecting tolls.  Hoster's daughter kidnaps the son of Tywin Lannister.  The elder Lannister slaps back by sending his brutal thugs to murder Walder's small folk, destroy their crops, kill his livestock, and burn his villages.  The Stark father gets arrested in the capital city and later charged with treason.  The son comes to his gates with an army and demands help from the Freys.  Walder is a loyal man to his king.  What the Starks are asking is a dangerous favor.  Keep the gates closed and the Starks will attack.  And if they should win, Hoster Tully would burn The Twins like he did to the Goodbrooks' villages.  Opening the gates means he joins the Stark Rebellion and becomes an enemy of the king.  

Lord Walder had to choose.  He chose to help Robb in exchange for marriages.  Lord Frey and his family fought bravely for the Starks.  The Starks pay them back by insulting them and breaking their sworn oath.  Walder pulls his soldiers back.  One of the savage northman had the nerve to suggests attacking the Freys from behind.  Which shows just how much northern honor is worth.  None.  Robb and the Starks did not send a humble apology.  The Starks did not offer lands, revenues, or anything of value to pay back the Freys, whom they owed.  

Some time later, the Starks get themselves into trouble and are in need of Frey assistance.  The Starks are asking for help.  Lord Walder has dilemma.  To refuse is dangerous.  The Starks might win and they, with the Tullys, will punish the Freys.  Remember what happened to the Goodbrooks.  Remember the mindset of the northman who suggested attacking the Freys from behind in a situation where the Starks were completely in the wrong.  That is the kind of uncertainty and danger Lord Frey will have to negotiate with. 

I have no dislike for the Starks as a whole.  The only Starks that I dislike are Jon, Arya, and Bran.  I am not a fan of the Freys.  I am a fan of Daenerys.  Just so you know where I stand.  If you were Lord Walder, how would you handle the Starks the second time?

 

What were your opinions of Dany again? 

Edit: Oh you said you are a Dany fan, what a surprise!

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

My friend once said that Walder should have gotten all the Northmen drunk, and instead of killing them, he should have captured them instead. Send Robb Stark and his highest born nobles bound and gagged to King‘s Landing to face justice for treason, or be used to force a surrender of the North and Riverlands. I feel like that would have been just as much of a violation of guest right as if they’d murdered the lot, though. Or would it?

 

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

From what I understand guest right is all about safe conduct. So if they were not harmed while in the custody of the Freys it might be a loophole. But it would still be a great betrayal which would lead people to think the Freys were untrustworthy.

Wyman Manderly, one of the northliest Northman you can find on the northern side of the Neck, imprisons Davos. 

He is so northly when the winter comes, he even goes "hunting" like a hill clansmen would, that's how much a Northman he is. Too bad he still clings to the falsegods of the seven, but I suspect it is only in appearance. Since we've all seen his heart tree.

[astarkchoice]

23 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

He has a right to be angry, and I would not begrudge him if he instantly withdrew from supporting Robb, but nothing gave him the right to break guest right and despicably kill Robb and thousands of guests in the way he did.

He didnt have the right no but to  be fair  hes openly rebelled vs the 'true king ' in multiple battles so team frey  simply going back to neutral prob isnt gonna satisfy a man like tywin

the alternative  forces robb to besiege the twins to get to the north , walder may judge that tywin doesnt make deals he doesnt need (see king balon) thus the tyrell-lannister forces might not rush to save the twins , tywin  may let robb exhaust himself  vs the freys then ironborn while he and his new reach buddies easily retake the rest of the riverlands.... so instead walder takes the deal on the table, one a self centred honourless guy like himself would jump at.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

My friend once said that Walder should have gotten all the Northmen drunk, and instead of killing them, he should have captured them instead. Send Robb Stark and his highest born nobles bound and gagged to King‘s Landing to face justice for treason, or be used to force a surrender of the North and Riverlands. I feel like that would have been just as much of a violation of guest right as if they’d murdered the lot, though. Or would it?

Yes, it is a violation of guest right. Guest right is absolute: from guest to host, from host to gues, and between guests as well. See Lord Baratheon intervening with Aemond Targaryen when he threatens to take Lucerys Targaryen's eye as the Dance of the Dragons is to commence.

But guest right is not given just by entering someone's castle. It requires eating bread and salt under the same roof. And apparently according to Wyman Manderly's actions guest right ends with a parting gift.

[sweetsunray]

47 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Wyman Manderly, one of the northliest Northman you can find on the northern side of the Neck, imprisons Davos. 

But Davos did not break bread and salt in Manderly's Hall, nor was offered it. (If you're implying that Wyman broke guest right).

Manderly also brought his own food to WF, so he never ate Bolton's bread or salt.

Roose does not seem to have figured that out yet. For he goes white as a sheet when Freys attempt to slay Manderly and several men of both sides fight one another in the hall. Like Lord Baratheon did with Lucerys and Aemond, he orders both outside ASAP to go kill one another there if they absolutely must, but not before Stannis. Kindof weird since he had no problem sending his men to slay fellow northerners in Walder Frey's hall. But in the North itself, Roose Bolton seems apprehensive about any of his guests breaking the guest right he extended to them.