Do you think that Craster is a Complete Monster and one of the single most evil characters in both the books and the TV show?

[boltons are sick]

So, for those of you who don`t know there is a trope created by TV Tropes called Complete Monsters (also known as Pure Evil). They are regarded as the very worst of the worst characters from a certain franchise. There are a lot of requirements for these trope but the main ones are the following:

1. The character has ABSOLUTELY NO REDEEMING QUALITIES. Even if a character has some redeeming qualities at the start of the story he/she could still become a Complete Monster if he/she loses them. Even one single redeeming quality is enough to disqualify a character from this trope.

2. The character in question commits horrible, atrocious crimes that are presented seriously within the story and their actions are worse than the actions of most other villains in the story. We also take into account their resources and their ability to cause harm to other people. This means that if a character has more resources (if for example he/she is a ruler that commands thousands of people), then he/she needs to comit bigger atrocities in order to stand out. If a character has less resources to harm people (for example, if he/she is a lone serial killer), then he/she qualifies if their crimes are heinous enough considering their resources. If a character`s actions are not heinous enough by the standards of the story then he/she can`t be a Complete Monster. The character`s crimes must pass several different heinous standards in order for the character to count as a Complete Monster:

- The baseline standard - This is a common standard that all villains need to pass, no matter the work they come from. This means that the villain needs to commit crimes that are worse than animal cruelty, theft, abuse (unless the abuse is REALLY extreme but that rarely happens) and trying to kill the main characters (because this is something most villains try to do).

- The standards of the work - This means that the villain should be compared to other villains from the same work (or franchise) to see if his/her actions are bad enough to make him/her stand out. This means that a villain who comes from a lighthearted series like My Little Pony needs to be compared to other villains from My Little Pony and not to villains from grimdark franchises such as Warhammer 40000, A Song of Ice and Fire and Berserk. Similarly, a villain who comes from a work with high heinous standard should  be compared to other villains from the same franchise and not to villains that come from My Little Pony.

- The resource standard - This means that we should also take into consideration the villain`s resources and their ability to hurt other people as I already mentioned.

- The system standard - This means that if a villain is part of an organization or a group, then the villain needs to be the worst member or one of the worst (if the organisation is big like the Galactic Empire for example)

3) The character`s motivation for commiting those crimes or the character him/herself are never portrayed sympathetically and he/she has either no excuse for his/her actions or their excuse is not portrayed sympathetically. Even if the character in question has some traumatic moment that has shaped his/her personality, it doesn`t excuse their actions and the narrative doesn`t try to make you feel sorry for them.

4) The character has enough understanding of human morality to tell right from wrong and make decisions. This means that characters who are severely mentally ill, possessed or brainwashed or from a race or culture that can`t comprehend morality or has an entirely different morality can`t qualify. However, characters who are mentally ill can still qualify if they can tell right from wrong despite their mental illness (for example, the Joker).

5) The character is portrayed seriously and is not a Comic Relief (a character you are supposed to laugh at and not take very seriously). Even if the character is funny he/she can still be a Complete Monster if they are portrayed seriously despite their sense of humor. If the character is treated as a joke by the narrative itself (which often happens in kid`s shows), then he/she can`t be a Complete Monster.

6) The character must make AT LEAST ONE APPEARANCE in the story itself. Characters that are just mentioned by other characters and make no appearance can`t qualify. Aside from that, if all the crimes commited by the character happen off-screen/off-page and are only vaguely described, then he/she can`t be a Complete Monster. That being said, flashback characters can qualify under certain circumstances if they have enough personality and crimes that have effect on-screen are still considered.

7) The audience is not supposed to feel bad for a Complete Monsterr when something bad happens to him/her because their comeuppance is completely deserved and the narrative doesn`t try to make the audience feel sympathy for the Complete Monster.

8) The character must come from a work which has at least some semblence of plot and is not pure exploitation and is more complex than "bad guy does evil things for no apparent reason" type of plot. A horror film or book can still contain a Complete Monster but it needs to have some plot. For this reasons films like Human Centipede and Serbian Film don`t contain Complete Monsters because they are viewed by TvTropes as plotless exploitation even though the villains are extremely repulsive.

9) A character must meet ALL of the above mentioned criteria in order to be a Complete Monster.

Craster is considered a Complete Monster in both the books and the TV series which means that he is one of the most morally repugnant and evil characters since he is Pure Evil.

The other characters who are considered to be Complete Monsters are:

Main book series: Joffrey, Ramsay, Gregor, Euron and Rorge

Tv series: Joffrey, Ramsay, Gregor, Euron, Walder Frey, Karl Tanner, Aerys Targaryen and Littlefinger

Here are the two Complete Monster entries for Craster which describe his evil actions:

• Books: Craster is a wicked, hedonistic Wildling and uneasy ally of the Night's Watch. Keeping a harem of abused women, Craster rapes them in his isolated keep beyond the Wall, even assaulting any female children born to his "wives" from a prepubescent age. Any male children born are left as sacrifices to the Others, Craster desiring nothing more than a life to enjoy casually raping the women in his keep free of consequence.

• TV show: Craster, a vicious Wildling and shaky Night's Watch ally, is given a self-righteous demeanor. Abusing the women of his isolated keep, Craster regularly rapes them, even keeping any girls born as a result to add to his dozens of victims, while leaving any infant boys born to be taken by the White Walkers. Incensed by the mere implication of debauchery, Craster declares himself a "godly man" and threatens to kill any of the Night's Watch brothers who dare question his way of life.

Do you agree with TV Tropes' decision to list both versions of Craster as Complete Monsters or not?

[Rondo]

Disagree.  Craster is a brute but he is not evil.  He was rejected by the watch and he made a life for himself on the wild side of the wall.  Laws do not apply on his side of the wall.  Craster created what is really a harem.  He has Stark blood.  He was giving his baby boys to the white walkers to buy peace with them.  Sacrifice is an ugly ritual of the religions.  If the Old Gods can do it, Rhllorists can do it, why should we consider Craster any different?  At least he was not murdering children.  He was giving them up for adoption.  The incest is his business.  The women who want to can probably leave and go to Westeros if they want to kneel.  They choose to stay.  Craster and his family should be left alone to live as they like.  The most evil are the slave masters in Essos.

[sweetsunray]

Yes, I believe he is a complete monster and as evil as the Bloodstone Emperor and the Night's King and Euron.

[boltons are sick]

Just now, sweetsunray said:

Yes, I believe he is a complete monster and as evil as the Bloodstone Emperor and the Night's King and Euron.

For the Night's King, from the way the text is written you could make an argument that he was corrupted by the female White Walker against his will and if I remember correctly, he was described as an honorable man before he kissed the White Walker who corrupted his soul, which means that he is not really evil just brainwashed.

[kissdbyfire]

Yes, Craster (in the books) is as vile a monster as they come. In a lot of ways he’s worse than Ramsay. Ramsay’s victims at least get to die after all the torture and sexual abuse and gods know what else. Craster’s for the most part have to endure the constant physical & sexual abuse well into their twilight years. And there’s more… Ramsay is stupid and acts impulsively, Craster less so. Craster is so deliberate in his utter evilness that he kills all his male offspring. Yes, he’s managed to convince his “wives” that he’s doing it to keep them safe from the Others, but that’s a load of bollocks. Sure, he makes offerings to the Others. When he doesn’t have a son, he offers sheep, goats, dogs, etc. And the Others haven’t complained about it, have they? I mean, it’s not like when he offers them animals they get so mad they attack his keep. Nope, they’re fine w/ it. Then, why offer his own children as well? Well, b/c he’s not stupid like Ramsay, he knows these sons will one day become men and either turn into the competition or, more likely, kill him. So he gets rid of them by creating the false narrative that this will keep them all safe. 
 

As to the show…

Spoiler

Bugger that abomination

 

[sweetsunray]

3 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

For the Night's King, from the way the text is written you could make an argument that he was corrupted by the female White Walker against his will and if I remember correctly, he was described as an honorable man before he kissed the White Walker who corrupted his soul, which means that he is not really evil just brainwashed.

You cannot make that argument for the Night's King, because no living character, no matter how much they are corrupted by a sorceress lose their free will. The only characters that lose this are wights or Undying Ones, and they are dead or stopped breathing. The Night's King is not described as having been an honorable man before he kissed the corpse queen. It is not even explicitly said he kissed a White Walker.

The Night's King was regarded as evil for the major crime that he had committed human sacrifice. For this his name was obliterated.

[boltons are sick]

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

You cannot make that argument for the Night's King, because no living character, no matter how much they are corrupted by a sorceress lose their free will. The only characters that lose this are wights or Undying Ones, and they are dead or stopped breathing. The Night's King is not described as having been an honorable man before he kissed the corpse queen. It is not even explicitly said he kissed a White Walker.

The Night's King was regarded as evil for the major crime that he had committed human sacrifice. For this his name was obliterated.

Admittedly, I might be misremembering the text because I read that part a long time ago.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Rondo said:

Disagree.  Craster is a brute but he is not evil.  He was rejected by the watch and he made a life for himself on the wild side of the wall.  Laws do not apply on his side of the wall.  Craster created what is really a harem.  He has Stark blood.  He was giving his baby boys to the white walkers to buy peace with them.  Sacrifice is an ugly ritual of the religions.  If the Old Gods can do it, Rhllorists can do it, why should we consider Craster any different?  At least he was not murdering children.  He was giving them up for adoption.  The incest is his business.  The women who want to can probably leave and go to Westeros if they want to kneel.  They choose to stay.  Craster and his family should be left alone to live as they like.  The most evil are the slave masters in Essos.

And where does this Stark blood come? He is obviously Targ-Aryan, and guess what, while we don't know of any Starks in the watch around the time of his birth, we know two Targaryens, Brynden and Aemon. Since we know his mother was chased off of Castle Black, seat of the LC of NW, where Aemon and Brynden were stationed, it comes off as a bit suspicious, is it not? Especially considering he likes to procreate with his own relatives like a true Targaryen would. Craster is a Targ-Aryan, plain and simple. 

 

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

So, for those of you who don`t know there is a trope created by TV Tropes called Complete Monsters (also known as Pure Evil). They are regarded as the very worst of the worst characters from a certain franchise. There are a lot of requirements for these trope but the main ones are the following:

1. The character has ABSOLUTELY NO REDEEMING QUALITIES. Even if a character has some redeeming qualities at the start of the story he/she could still become a Complete Monster if he/she loses them. Even one single redeeming quality is enough to disqualify a character from this trope.

2. The character in question commits horrible, atrocious crimes that are presented seriously within the story and their actions are worse than the actions of most other villains in the story. We also take into account their resources and their ability to cause harm to other people. This means that if a character has more resources (if for example he/she is a ruler that commands thousands of people), then he/she needs to comit bigger atrocities in order to stand out. If a character has less resources to harm people (for example, if he/she is a lone serial killer), then he/she qualifies if their crimes are heinous enough considering their resources. If a character`s actions are not heinous enough by the standards of the story then he/she can`t be a Complete Monster. The character`s crimes must pass several different heinous standards in order for the character to count as a Complete Monster:

- The baseline standard - This is a common standard that all villains need to pass, no matter the work they come from. This means that the villain needs to commit crimes that are worse than animal cruelty, theft, abuse (unless the abuse is REALLY extreme but that rarely happens) and trying to kill the main characters (because this is something most villains try to do).

- The standards of the work - This means that the villain should be compared to other villains from the same work (or franchise) to see if his/her actions are bad enough to make him/her stand out. This means that a villain who comes from a lighthearted series like My Little Pony needs to be compared to other villains from My Little Pony and not to villains from grimdark franchises such as Warhammer 40000, A Song of Ice and Fire and Berserk. Similarly, a villain who comes from a work with high heinous standard should  be compared to other villains from the same franchise and not to villains that come from My Little Pony.

- The resource standard - This means that we should also take into consideration the villain`s resources and their ability to hurt other people as I already mentioned.

- The system standard - This means that if a villain is part of an organization or a group, then the villain needs to be the worst member or one of the worst (if the organisation is big like the Galactic Empire for example)

3) The character`s motivation for commiting those crimes or the character him/herself are never portrayed sympathetically and he/she has either no excuse for his/her actions or their excuse is not portrayed sympathetically. Even if the character in question has some traumatic moment that has shaped his/her personality, it doesn`t excuse their actions and the narrative doesn`t try to make you feel sorry for them.

4) The character has enough understanding of human morality to tell right from wrong and make decisions. This means that characters who are severely mentally ill, possessed or brainwashed or from a race or culture that can`t comprehend morality or has an entirely different morality can`t qualify. However, characters who are mentally ill can still qualify if they can tell right from wrong despite their mental illness (for example, the Joker).

5) The character is portrayed seriously and is not a Comic Relief (a character you are supposed to laugh at and not take very seriously). Even if the character is funny he/she can still be a Complete Monster if they are portrayed seriously despite their sense of humor. If the character is treated as a joke by the narrative itself (which often happens in kid`s shows), then he/she can`t be a Complete Monster.

6) The character must make AT LEAST ONE APPEARANCE in the story itself. Characters that are just mentioned by other characters and make no appearance can`t qualify. Aside from that, if all the crimes commited by the character happen off-screen/off-page and are only vaguely described, then he/she can`t be a Complete Monster. That being said, flashback characters can qualify under certain circumstances if they have enough personality and crimes that have effect on-screen are still considered.

7) The audience is not supposed to feel bad for a Complete Monsterr when something bad happens to him/her because their comeuppance is completely deserved and the narrative doesn`t try to make the audience feel sympathy for the Complete Monster.

8) The character must come from a work which has at least some semblence of plot and is not pure exploitation and is more complex than "bad guy does evil things for no apparent reason" type of plot. A horror film or book can still contain a Complete Monster but it needs to have some plot. For this reasons films like Human Centipede and Serbian Film don`t contain Complete Monsters because they are viewed by TvTropes as plotless exploitation even though the villains are extremely repulsive.

9) A character must meet ALL of the above mentioned criteria in order to be a Complete Monster.

Craster is considered a Complete Monster in both the books and the TV series which means that he is one of the most morally repugnant and evil characters since he is Pure Evil.

The other characters who are considered to be Complete Monsters are:

Main book series: Joffrey, Ramsay, Gregor, Euron and Rorge

Tv series: Joffrey, Ramsay, Gregor, Euron, Walder Frey, Karl Tanner, Aerys Targaryen and Littlefinger

Here are the two Complete Monster entries for Craster which describe his evil actions:

• Books: Craster is a wicked, hedonistic Wildling and uneasy ally of the Night's Watch. Keeping a harem of abused women, Craster rapes them in his isolated keep beyond the Wall, even assaulting any female children born to his "wives" from a prepubescent age. Any male children born are left as sacrifices to the Others, Craster desiring nothing more than a life to enjoy casually raping the women in his keep free of consequence.

• TV show: Craster, a vicious Wildling and shaky Night's Watch ally, is given a self-righteous demeanor. Abusing the women of his isolated keep, Craster regularly rapes them, even keeping any girls born as a result to add to his dozens of victims, while leaving any infant boys born to be taken by the White Walkers. Incensed by the mere implication of debauchery, Craster declares himself a "godly man" and threatens to kill any of the Night's Watch brothers who dare question his way of life.

Do you agree with TV Tropes' decision to list both versions of Craster as Complete Monsters or not?

 

Craster, as far as we have seen, is no worse than Aegon the IV. Of course it is because we haven't seen him sacrificing his babies yet, so he is probably worse than him but overall he acts like your standart Targ-Aryan in all his dealings.

[kissdbyfire]

43 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

And where does this Stark blood come?

C’mon, Corvo! It comes from wishful thinking! It comes from ‘I  really want to find “proof” that these Starks are evul and up to no good’, even if no such proof exists in the text’. It comes from ‘I’d rather come across as someone w/ appallingly poor reading comprehension just so I can diss the Starks.’ That’s where it comes from, the same place that makes these discussions so mindnumbingly predictable & boring. *Yawn*.

 

[Nathan Stark]

I don't need a subpar online resource like tv tropes to know that Craster is a completely evil degenerate. The man fucks his own daughters. It's right there in the text. He is evil. No question.

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

C’mon, Corvo! It comes from wishful thinking! It comes from ‘I  really want to find “proof” that these Starks are evul and up to no good’, even if no such proof exists in the text’. It comes from ‘I’d rather come across as someone w/ appallingly poor reading comprehension just so I can diss the Starks.’ That’s where it comes from, the same place that makes these discussions so mindnumbingly predictable & boring. *Yawn*.

 

Craster is a bastard of some Crow who flew down off the Wall that was most likely from Flea Bottom.  Craster has as much Stark blood as Tyrion does.  

[Groo]

20 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes, I believe he is a complete monster and as evil as the Bloodstone Emperor and the Night's King and Euron.

Ah, but the Bloodstone Emperor and the Night's King don't meet #6 in the definition of Complete Monster, ergo they are not Complete Monsters. Problem solved.

[boltons are sick]

28 minutes ago, Groo said:

Ah, but the Bloodstone Emperor and the Night's King don't meet #6 in the definition of Complete Monster, ergo they are not Complete Monsters. Problem solved.

 Actually, the Bloodstone Emperor is listed as a Complete Monster because The World of Ice and Fire is a guidebook about the world of ASOIAF which means that the trope is a lot more lenient to characters that come from texts like that because everything in this book is written as a historical text. Maegor Targaryen, Tyanna of the Tower, Dalton Greyjoy and Qhored Hoare are also listed as Complete Monsters.

 If a character in the main series mentioned in the passing: "The Bloodstone Emperor slew his sister, enslaved his own people, tortured people, feasted on human flesh and almost caused the apocalypse." he wouldn't qualify for the trope, but because the passages come from a guidebook like TWAIAF where everything is written like a historical text, he is allowed. Even though we don't never meet him, for the purposes of the trope, we judge him by what is written about him. Here is his entry:

• Yi Ti/YiTish Mythology: The Bloodstone Emperor is the jealous second son of the semi-divine Opal Emperor. Murdering his own older sister, the Amethyst Empress, to take power over the paradisaical Great Empire of the Dawn, the Bloodstone Emperor begins worshipping a black stone and marked his rule with mass murder and enslavement, feasting on the flesh of man, conducting mass torture and practicing dark magic. So atrocious is the mass sin at the tyrant's hands that the benevolent Goddess, the Maiden-Made-of-Light and ancestor to the Bloodstone Emperor himself, leaves the world in peril to eradicate the latter's empire, electing to risk the death of all rather than have it suffer under his monstrous excesses.

[Castellan]

I read up to point 4 of your list before I tired. I don't think Craster really fits it.  I think Ramsay Snow is worse than anyone in the books and fits it.

 

[SeanF]

Craster is indeed, completely vile, and possesses no redeeming features.

[Ring3r]

Seems to me that a site devoted to try and pidgeon-hole plot developments into stereotypical pre-determined paths could not possibly have anything valuable to say about an author's story.  The very act of "classifying" plot developments undermines any possible impact, because anyone subscribing to such a view is, by definition, assuming the author is trying to make some specific point.  That says much more about the person who is reading than it does about the author.

How could anyone find any joy in good story-telling if they're checking it against something like this?  It's nothing but self-imposed mental boundaries.

 

*edit*  Sad state of affairs when I have to resort to big words.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

Are Dany stans really trying to defend Craster now?