Craster's Sacrificial System is/was not Sustainable in the Long Run

[Phylum of Alexandria]

41 minutes ago, LongRider said:

I agree with the idea that Craster and his get is 'icy'.  Gilly also tells us "He’s come for the babe,” Gilly wept. “He smells him. A babe fresh-born stinks o’ life. He’s come for the life.”  According to Gilly, our only witness to the baby sacrifices, it's not the blood, but the 'stink of life'.

This could be an important clue, here is the full quote and it's very interesting.

I can accept that, and I believe we also agreed on the thematic tie to the Undying consuming Dany's life fire. It makes sense, vague as it all is.

Despite how they're used, it seems important that they would remain alive despite being thrust into conditions that sweetsunray once nicely compared to Pluto. It takes a special type of blood to preserve its "stink o life" in such conditions.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Wildlings have survived for thousands of years in the Land of Always winter, including any animal they kept.

Where does it say that?

I'll buy it if there's evidence.

But I'm much more interested in the evidence that living things taken into the Heart of Winter by the Others will survive intact.

[sweetsunray]

4 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

And also: you seem to be against this notion of ice blood popping up in the story. Why? We have fire-blooded Valyrians. Why not ice-blooded humans as well? GRRM has already written Adara from The Ice Dragon. Her own family regarded her as somewhat cold and inhuman, but she wasn't. And neither was the ice dragon, despite the danger that it posed to most people it came near. What is it that you find problematic?

I'm not against the notion of ice blood in a sense that people adapted to the climate of regions where there's summer snow. But I don't think you can equate that with the fire-blooded dragonriding Valyrians, no. People do not need magic to adapt to a cold climate. Hence we wouldn't have inuit in the real world.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

I'm not against the notion of ice blood in a sense that people adapted to the climate of regions where there's summer snow. But I don't think you can equate that with the fire-blooded dragonriding Valyrians, no. People do not need magic to adapt to a cold climate. Hence we wouldn't have inuit in the real world.

But I'm not talking about Inuits. You yourself have likened the Others to Plutonians. The world they thrive in is not a normal cold area like Greenland. Just as the fire pits of Valyria are not the same as Dornish deserts. This is a magical permafrost wasteland. 

Yet as I said, GRRM wrote someone like Adara who could endure cold that no one else could endure. Just as he wrote Valyrians who can endure much more heat than the typical human.

People don't need magic to adapt to desert, but they need it to serve blood magic purposes for fire-blooded creatures. And I would say the same about ice magic. 

So what's wrong with having ice blooded humans?

[sweetsunray]

Just now, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Where does it say that?

I'll buy it if there's evidence.

But I'm much more interested in the evidence that living things taken into the Heart of Winter by the Others will survive intact.

If the Heart of Winter = maw itself, then obviously no living thing brought there will survive. It gets eaten, and some of the skeletal remains ends up clinging to the icy teeth the size of spears.

I had to check up on the Lands of Always Winter. On the one hand they're north of the Frostfangs, but in my head I considered the Frostfangs as solely being the mountain ranges along the Milkwater, and free folk certainly lived far more north than that. I was mistaken in that respect. The valley of the Thenns border at the Lands of Always Winter. The World book is rather ambiguous whether the CotF and/or the Giants used to live in those permanently frozen lands before the Dawn Age, or at the border of it. Nevertheless, combined with housing, a hearth inside a house, and furs humans can live and survive on ice sheets.

[sweetsunray]

13 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

So what's wrong with having ice blooded humans?

Because it requires ice magician caste to breed such people. Valyria had an entire caste in permanent service to this type of blood magic. There is no such equivalent for the North, let alone Free Folk north of the Wall, especially when these people do seek warmth and hearths and fire and wear furs to keep warm, or build their home amidst hot springs. And there's no actual interbreeding with Others either. 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

If the Heart of Winter = maw itself, then obviously no living thing brought there will survive. It gets eaten, and some of the skeletal remains ends up clinging to the icy teeth the size of spears.

I had to check up on the Lands of Always Winter. On the one hand they're north of the Frostfangs, but in my head I considered the Frostfangs as solely being the mountain ranges along the Milkwater, and free folk certainly lived far more north than that. I was mistaken in that respect. The valley of the Thenns border at the Lands of Always Winter. The World book is rather ambiguous whether the CotF and/or the Giants used to live in those permanently frozen lands before the Dawn Age, or at the border of it. Nevertheless, combined with housing, a hearth inside a house, and furs humans can live and survive on ice sheets.

The Others only travel south during the winter, and even then, usually at night. They bring cold with them, but they seem to be subject to conditions that they can't control. Them "bringing the cold" probably just speaks to them emanating cold, but they remain creatures of winter.

Yet, the name of "The Land of Always Winter" indicates that this region is always favorable to them, and thus I doubt much will survive there unless the Others want them to.

But still, we're talking about an ice-blooded Maw and its supernaturally cold guardians. I don't think it's reasonable to assume that anything in this region, and directly in their presence, for long, will survive without some magical protection. Maybe magical sheep...

[Phylum of Alexandria]

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Because it requires ice magician caste to breed such people. Valyria had an entire caste in permanent service to this type of blood magic. There is no such equivalent for the North, let alone Free Folk north of the Wall, especially when these people do seek warmth and hearths and fire and wear furs to keep warm, or build their home amidst hot springs. And there's no actual interbreeding with Others either. 

Such a system doesn't seem to exist now, but who's to say it didn't in the past? The point being that the Starks may have some of the ice blood to them, mixed though it may be with other bloods. 

Given Lyanna's blue winter rose imagery, and the significance of Jon's hidden parentage, it seems likely that at least Lyanna had some ice-blood traits, which would make Jon a song of ice and fire in terms of magical blood. How he acts will still be paramount to the moral side of the story, but it would likely have some interesting magical ramifications. 

[sweetsunray]

11 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

The Others only travel south during the winter, and even then, usually at night. They bring cold with them, but they seem to be subject to conditions that they can't control. Them "bringing the cold" probably just speaks to them emanating cold, but they remain creatures of winter.

Yet, the name of "The Land of Always Winter" indicates that this region is always favorable to them, and thus I doubt much will survive there unless the Others want them to.

But still, we're talking about an ice-blooded Maw and its supernaturally cold guardians. I don't think it's reasonable to assume that anything in this region, and directly in their presence, for long, will survive without some magical protection. Maybe magical sheep...

And maybe the Others or the maw can cast a spell to shield the livestock and babies from freezing to death, while it lives barely in a hypothermic state, making it lethargic and unconscious.

There are no answers to this yet, other than Craster's wives and Gilly insisting to keep Gilly's son "warm", and that we have repeated allusions to babies being food. 

I suspect we will find out if tWoW is published, when "sweet little monster" is carried to the Heart of Winter (and Bran witnesses this). I do think however, that while we believe this monster-baby to be Gilly's son, it'll turn out to be another unfortunate baby. There are hints that sweet little monster was swapped for yet another baby by Flint and Norrey and the wet nurses they brought. Gilly's baby is constantly portrayed as a quiet baby who at best gurgles when he cries for the breast or changing. But upon Val's return both Jon and Selyse remark that "monster" has grown triple in size and kept all of Castle Black awake all night, or can be heard as far as Eastwatch. And since Val was only gone for a fortnight, it seems weird that "monster" grew triple in size. Since Flint and Norrey don't know "monster" is Gilly's son, but would believe he's Mance's son, they probably swapped babies again, in order to have Mance's son as a hostage. "Wards we called it." And as such, any baby is fine for the corpse queen - meat is meat, as long as it's alive.

[LongRider]

 

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

We have fire-blooded Valyrians. Why not ice-blooded humans as well?

Agree with this. 

And as far as I see it, if the Targs inbreeding concentrates their fire aspects, then Craster's way concentrates the Ice aspect. 

Was wighted Small Paul sent to retrieve Gilly's baby?  The wights are controlled by the Others and they want their sacrifice.

 

edt; deleted some incorrect info

[Phylum of Alexandria]

 

6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And maybe the Others or the maw can cast a spell to shield the livestock and babies from freezing to death, while it lives barely in a hypothermic state, making it lethargic and unconscious.

Maybe. We can't say at this point. That is one possibility, and them relying on magical ice blood is another.

I'd say option B is more parsimonious, especially because it can tie into other more relevant aspects of the story (see: Jon Snow's parentage; weird details about Stark heritage), but it's not like GRRM always goes for parsimony. I am hoping he does though. 

Speaking of which...

5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I suspect we will find out if tWoW is published, when "sweet little monster" is carried to the Heart of Winter (and Bran witnesses this). I do think however, that while we believe this monster-baby to be Gilly's son, it'll turn out to be another unfortunate baby. There are hints that sweet little monster was swapped for yet another baby by Flint and Norrey and the wet nurses they brought. Gilly's baby is constantly portrayed as a quiet baby who at best gurgles when he cries for the breast or changing. But upon Val's return both Jon and Selyse remark that "monster" has grown triple in size and kept all of Castle Black awake all night, or can be heard as far as Eastwatch. And since Val was only gone for a fortnight, it seems weird that "monster" grew triple in size. Since Flint and Norrey don't know "monster" is Gilly's son, but would believe he's Mance's son, they probably swapped babies again, in order to have Mance's son as a hostage. "Wards we called it." And as such, any baby is fine for the corpse queen - meat is meat, as long as it's alive.

Oh jeez. I sure hope that's not the case. It's already written to be a fairly convoluted situation as it is!  I'd have to read that section more and think about it, but I do hope GRRM keeps things simple there.

[sweetsunray]

23 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Such a system doesn't seem to exist now, but who's to say it didn't in the past? The point being that the Starks may have some of the ice blood to them, mixed though it may be with other bloods. 

Given Lyanna's blue winter rose imagery, and the significance of Jon's hidden parentage, it seems likely that at least Lyanna had some ice-blood traits, which would make Jon a song of ice and fire in terms of magical blood. How he acts will still be paramount to the moral side of the story, but it would likely have some interesting magical ramifications. 

I have played around with the idea or possibility for some characters being able to withstand that Plutonian cold. Jon the wolf is consistently hinted to be a danger to Gilly the stand-in corpse queen, and not just for forcing her to swap her son for Mance's.

An illustrous example

Quote

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger . . . he could feel it. It was food he needed, prey, a red deer that stank of fear or a great elk proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought. (aSoS, Jon XII)

 

And then after Jon becomes Lord Snow, the new Lord Commander, Gilly is described as a frightened doe.

Quote

"Sam." Her voice sounded raw. Gilly was dark-haired and slim, with the big brown eyes of a doe. She was swallowed by the folds of Sam's old cloak, her face half-hidden by its hood, but shivering all the same. Her face looked wan and frightened. (aFfC, Samwell I)

On the one hand we have Jon's thoughts of hunger intruding on his thoughts as he ponders Stannis's offer to become the New Lord of Winterfell, before he's elected to be Lord Commander. Jon feels the hunger of Ghost, and he thinks of devouring a red deer that stank of fear.

Then once Jon becomes Lord Snow the Lord Commander (as Chett and Lark once warned Gilly), and Jon has just threatened her into agreeing to do the baby swap, she is described by Sam as a fearful doe (deer).

This furthers the wolf-threat-for-Gilly storyline hints since Jon first met Gilly.

But we also have allusions to the maw's hunger, because of the mention of the dragonglass blade. Who else knows both what a dragonglass blade feels like and yet survives it? The maw who experiences the pain of her mobile Others when killed by dragonglass, but is not itself stabbed. And she's hungry, needing to fill her belly with "fresh meat and hot dark blood".

And then as a third layer we have Gilly as stand-in corpse queen fearful of the wolf Jon. Unless the maw moves more south, a certain set of people will end up journeying to the Lands of Always Winter to kill the monster. They either need something to keep them warm, or some type of magic to survive it.

[sweetsunray]

13 minutes ago, LongRider said:

 

Agree with this.  

I looked at the wiki and found a family tree chart- Craster had 19 wives, six sacrificed sons, and one son saved, Gilly's son.  It did not list his daughters.  

Gilly - A Wiki of Ice and Fire (westeros.org)  if you want to see it, scroll down. 

So, apparently Craster doesn't father many sons.  Inbreeding concentrates genetic traits, and as far as I see it, if the Targs inbreeding concentrates their fire aspects, then Craster's way concentrates the Ice aspect. 

Knowing that the small number of sons, seven, in spite of the large number of wives, nineteen, puts the sacrifices in another light. With the small number of sacrifices of boy babies, this may make each sacrifice more significant, certainly more important than the sheep.  If so, was wighted Small Paul sent to retrieve Gilly's baby?  The wights are controlled by the Others and they want their sacrifice.

I agree that Small Paul (and the other wights waiting outside of the longhall that end up surrounding Gilly) was sent to retrieve the baby.

I would caution that Craster only fathered six sons. We only know that at least six other sons were born and offered to the cold gods, because one of Craster's wives had 6 sons.

Quote

If it's a girl, that's not so bad, she'll grown in a few years and he'll marry her. But Nella says its to be a boy, and she's had six and knows these things. He gives the boys to the gods. Come the white cold, he does and of late it comes more often (aCoK, Jon III)

Nella cannot be the sole wife who has had sons.

Also, while Craster has 19 wives, he has more daughters, but they haven't flowered yet.

[LongRider]

A double baby swap?  No, just no.  Don't see how it would advance the plot.

[sweetsunray]

32 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Such a system doesn't seem to exist now, but who's to say it didn't in the past? The point being that the Starks may have some of the ice blood to them, mixed though it may be with other bloods. 

George would have worked in far more direct hints to this in the world book and the Stark legacy. We just have big hints and likelihood that Bran the Builder and the last hero were one and the same, and that he helped with the building of castles and walls, more in particular helped with warding the Walls against shadows from passing. Storm's End when he was still an unknown boy, the Wall which was built by giants and proto NW together with the magical help of CotF, the Hightower for funds, and then with the money he paid for the building of Winterfell right smack amidst hot springs (and a warm water heating system). The hot springs around Winterfell are a natural protection against Others. 

Perhaps Bran the Builder was a fluke like Adara.

32 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Given Lyanna's blue winter rose imagery, and the significance of Jon's hidden parentage, it seems likely that at least Lyanna had some ice-blood traits, which would make Jon a song of ice and fire in terms of magical blood. How he acts will still be paramount to the moral side of the story, but it would likely have some interesting magical ramifications. 

But the blue winter roses don't grow in the wild, but in glass gardens where heat is artificially preserved.

[sweetsunray]

13 minutes ago, LongRider said:

A double baby swap?  No, just no.  Don't see how it would advance the plot.

It wouldn't advance the plot, just make clear that it doesn't matter whether it was actually Craster's son. Any baby would do. Which we can infer from the fact that while wildlings (children and adults) end up being wights, but we still have to see a wight baby, or wight sheep, or wight dogs.

Not a fan either of the possibility, but euhm I cannot ignore a sudden inconsistency in a baby that does not cry at all during the wight attack, is said to be quiet and little by Sam, is said to be at best gurgling when he wants milk in contrast to Dalla's son who is loud and bigger for his younger age. Val leaves, Flint and Norrey arrive with two wet nurses, Val returns and Jon jokes "thrice as big, twice as loud. He can be heard as far as Eastwatch" and a little later Selyse complains about the baby who wailed all night. And right after Val is pretty upset and angry and demands Jon to get her monster asap. And when Gilly leaves with the baby, Jon admits in thought he's not sure which baby she has taken with her. George either wrote that to hint that Gilly didn't swap the babies and took her own son with her, or to set Jon up as not familiar enough himself with the babies if somebody else ends up swapping babies. If the first, then why was Gilly crying so much for so long, and the baby she took cries consistently as Dalla's son does? If the first, then no way Val would cover for Gilly to Jon, the first half of aDwD. That leaves the second possibility.

[LongRider]

Just now, sweetsunray said:

It wouldn't advance the plot, just make clear that it doesn't matter whether it was actually Craster's son. Any baby would do. Which we can infer from the fact that while wildlings (children and adults) end up being wights, but we still have to see a wight baby, or wight sheep, or wight dogs.

Agree to disagree, the baby Monster is Gilly's babe and he's still at the Wall.  I think that will have some significance, but again, it's what GRRM writes that important.

[LongRider]

18 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I would caution that Craster only fathered six sons. We only know that at least six other sons were born and offered to the cold gods, because one of Craster's wives had 6 sons.

I had to think about it but agree.  The text only speaks of six from one wife, guess I missed that point.  >g<   Off to edit the post.

[sweetsunray]

Also, another possible reason why George may write in a double swap: as a parallel to what may have happened to baby Aegon. I really think Varys sincerely swapped Aegon VI for the pisswater prince and believes Young Griff is the same baby he once saved. On the other hand we have too many hints that Young Griff is actually Illyrio's son from his late wife Serra from Lys. So, without Varys consent and knowledge, Illyrio may have swapped real baby Aegon for his own son behind Varys' back. It's not as if Varys was that frequent a visitor to be able to tell the difference. And Varys trusts Illyrio and perhaps should not have.

[James West]

"Craster's Sacrificial System is/was not Sustainable in the Long Run"

One of the boys will be kept to continue after Craster can no longer produce.  Should his entire keep die out there is always the Starks.  Craster's boys and the Starks are of the same genetic material.  They are family.  If the White Walkers accepted Craster's sons they will also accept the sons of House Stark.  I would like to know the frequency required by the White Walkers but the Starks have plenty of material to work with.  Jon, Rickon, Arya, and Sansa can provide sons to the White Walkers.