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A marriage between Sansa and Edmure


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4 minutes ago, Der_Erste_seines_Namens said:

Hoster had no a problem with unusual marriages. Jon was old enough to be Lysas grandfather. In real history, marriages between uncle and niece often happened. So why should not Edmure marry Sansa? 

And what's unusual here? We see Walder at 90 marrying girls 70 years his junior.

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2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Doran also arranges greybeards for Arianne so she would refuse them. Arianne's companions also end up being married to greybeards.

Doran considered this only, because he knowed that Arianne would never agree. He does not want, that everyone is confused, that Arianne is unmarried. He wanted her free for Viserys.

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56 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Starks have a precedent for Uncle/niece marriage in the form of Sansa and Jonnel

Yes, half-uncle and more interestingly, Serena and Sansa were the heirs to WF. Their father Rickon Stark was Cregan's heir, but he ended up dying before Cregan did. Serena was also wed to someone else first. Moreover, their half uncles died in a quick succession, and the World Book mentions wars (a rebellion by Skagos) and other turmoil.

It's not confirmed, but it seems that

  • a) the half uncles wanted to usurp the right to rule WF in this way
  • b) much of the turmoil or rebellion may have been in response to this usurpation and/or incest
  • c) all of Black Aly's 4 daughters died without issue or being married, and they too came from an earlier wife. This points to a type of murderous succession crisis.

WF has never had a female Stark ruling it as far as we know, but this seems more like something that male heirs down the line may have forced to prevent, because it's not actually law. Jon recognizes for example that Alys Karstark comes before her cousins or great uncle.

So, anyway, there is enough groundwork to leave the door open for an anomaly rather than a precedent and that it may have had a huge backlash that George doesn't want us to know yet, until the time it may become relevant.

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Obviously different cultures have different standards as to what gives them the squick when it comes to incest. In much of Europe, marrying your first cousin might raise a couple of eyebrows, but it's entirely socially acceptable. In the US, I've heard people grossed out by the idea of marrying even fourth or fifth cousins.

Some of this may relate to different conceptions of kinship groups. Incest is a near-universal taboo IRL, but the line at which it becomes incest varies by culture.

But even in cultures where first-cousin marriages are A-OK, I think there's usually still considered a noteworthy difference between that and uncle-niece marriages. I don't think we can presume that just because first-cousin marriages are relatively frequent that uncle-niece marriages are tolerated.

Nor can we assume that Targ incest has normalised a greater level of incest for everyone else (after all, the Faith still preaches that incest is an abomination except for the Targs - the concession Jaehaerys and Maegor got out of them and which they almost certainly don't actually believe). Everyone is appalled by the suggestions of Lannister incest. And at Craster's. I think both the Starks and the Tullys - especially the Tullys - would find Sansa-Edmure too close for comfort.

Moreover, does it actually create any political advantage? The houses are already closely allied. For the Tullys, it's a massive missed opportunity, marrying two kids in the same generation to the same great house. Marrying Edmure's hypothetical son to Sansa would make sense. Or his daughter to Sweetrobin, say. (Or Sweetrobin to Sansa, from the Arryn/Stark perspective). But Edmure? I don't see it.

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On 1/16/2023 at 2:00 AM, Adelstein said:

Obviously different cultures have different standards as to what gives them the squick when it comes to incest. In much of Europe, marrying your first cousin might raise a couple of eyebrows, but it's entirely socially acceptable.

What parts of Europe? :blink:

On 1/15/2023 at 11:30 PM, sweetsunray said:

Yes, half-uncle

I must be slow today but what's a half-uncle?  If your parent has a half-brother they are still your uncle in terms of blood ties.  Do we mean step-uncle?

On 1/15/2023 at 11:05 PM, Der_Erste_seines_Namens said:

Hoster had no a problem with unusual marriages. Jon was old enough to be Lysas grandfather. In real history, marriages between uncle and niece often happened. So why should not Edmure marry Sansa? 

What cultures practiced this kind of incest?  The ancient Egyptians practiced sibling incest but only because Pharaoh was considered divine and that's all I can think of.

On 1/15/2023 at 10:44 PM, Der_Erste_seines_Namens said:

Edmure was not always married. I think he would have liked Sansas prettiness. Hoster would probably also like the idea, to have his granddaughter in Riverrun.

In the absence of anything to the contrary saying the Tullys practice or approve of incestuous marriages or that Edmure has become LF with a fascination for Cat and / or Sansa or that Hoster "probably" wanted this I'm going to say a hard no. 

Edmure and Cat both married and one of their children (Hoster's grandchildren) will inherit Riverrun without any intermarriage.

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