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Tully Madness


Sydney Mae
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57 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

She's looking for her kids, with a parchment stating she's working for Tommen, armed with a perverted Ice and mouthing off about the Kingslayer.

There is no version of Catelyn "Cat" Tully Stark Stoneheart that would let that slide.

Cat would let her speak and explain her actions which, as the reader knows, completely vindicate her.

UnCat experienced betrayal in the last moments of her life and immediately leaps to the conclusion that Brienne has betrayed her too.  Brienne's "trial" is far more Lysa at The Eyrie than Catelyn, who reminded Lysa that Tyrion was her prisoner and who confided to Brynden that she was unsure of his guilt.  UnCat is a travesty of Catelyn.

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43 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

as the reader knows, completely vindicate her.

Do we? What was she going to do if she found them? She obviously trusts Jaime, it's not impossible to think they'd fall back into Lannister hands. Or keep them tucked away in Sapphire Island? When destiny will eventually knock on their door in the form of Gregor and Amory?

What was Briennes plan?

45 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Cat would let her speak and explain her actions which, as the reader knows, completely vindicate her.

UnCat experienced betrayal in the last moments of her life and immediately leaps to the conclusion that Brienne has betrayed her too.

It's not immediate. It's a long list of sketchy things. And she does explain herself, Jaime is gallant and has blonde curls. Mesmerizing. But words are wind and Cat forced her to choose action. And Brienne did wind up choosing.

Definitely a darker Cat then what we're used to, but ask Snow and he'd say she's regularly dark. But the brotherhood is still feeding and looking out for the vulnerable, at least in the Riverlands so we see both sides of "un"cat like we did prestoneheart.

49 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Brienne's "trial" is far more Lysa at The Eyrie than Catelyn, who reminded Lysa that Tyrion was her prisoner and who confided to Brynden that she was unsure of his guilt.  UnCat is a travesty of Catelyn

Good call. Very similar. Eerie. 

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1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Definitely a darker Cat then what we're used to, but ask Snow and he'd say she's regularly dark. But the brotherhood is still feeding and looking out for the vulnerable, at least in the Riverlands so we see both sides of "un"cat like we did prestoneheart.

The "good side" in her is vastly diminished, and seems to be tied solely to her faith in life rather than her significant personal empathy as well.

The "bad side" in her is drastically intensified, to the point that she isn't anything like Catelyn was in life, as @the trees have eyes alluded to regarding her approach to "trials." It's more a vengeful spirit possessing a corpse than a version of Cat at this point, and you can bet that the physical decay of Lady Stoneheart is meant to reflect her mental and moral decay.

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7 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

The "good side" in her is vastly diminished, and seems to be tied solely to her faith in life rather than her significant personal empathy as well.

Why do you think that?

7 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

The "bad side" in her is drastically intensified, to the point that she isn't anything like Catelyn was in life, as @the trees have eyes alluded to regarding her approach to "trials."

But you dont think shes crazy?

8 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

It's more a vengeful spirit possessing a corpse than a version of Cat at this point

Vengeful spirits dont feed smallfolk and manage orphanages 

9 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

and you can bet that the physical decay of Lady Stoneheart is meant to reflect her mental and moral decay.

Shes not Palpatine. 
Does Briennes scars reflect her mental and moreal decay? Does Jons? Tyrions? 

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7 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Why do you think that?

Her behavior aligns with someone who values the letter but not the spirit of charity according to the Faith of the Seven. Letting Septon Meribald go due to his position, but hosting a sham of a trial for her sworn sword and valued companion in life entrusted with rescuing her daughters, strongly indicates this.

7 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

But you dont think shes crazy?

I think there could be an argument made either way for Lady Stoneheart. Catelyn definitely snapped at the end of her life, given that she effectively thought that all of her children were dead in those moments, and died with the understand impression that justice and honor were gone from the world.

I don't generally view hanging people indiscriminately the sign of a sane individual, though.

7 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Vengeful spirits dont feed smallfolk and manage orphanages 

Again, there is some of Cat left, but that seems to be rather limited. Furthermore, how much of that was already being done by the Brotherhood Without Banners? She would have no real reason to end this practice unless she needed to in order to serve the ends of vengeance.

7 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Shes not Palpatine. 
Does Briennes scars reflect her mental and moreal decay? Does Jons? Tyrions? 

No, because their scars aren't indicative of the culmination of their trauma in the final moments of their lives. This isn't an "outer appearance reflects inner appearance in people" argument; it's a "the undead version of a fundamentally good person is hideous inside and out" argument.

Edited by Many-Faced Votary
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2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Why do you think that?

Cat would never threaten to hang a child the way LSH did. 

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

But you dont think shes crazy?

I know you’re not asking me, but no, I don’t think she’s crazy. She’s something altogether different than a crazy human being. 

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Vengeful spirits dont feed smallfolk and manage orphanages 

Why not? Just b/c she’s vengeful doesn’t mean she wants revenge on the whole wide world and everyone in it… 

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Shes not Palpatine. 
Does Briennes scars reflect her mental and moreal decay? Does Jons? Tyrions? 

Completely different situations… scars and physical decay b/c of death, it’s like oranges and rusty wheelbarrows!
Brienne, Jon and Tyrion are alive and have scars b/c of wounds they’ve suffered. LSH was dead for three days, her physical body was already decaying when she was reanimated by Beric. Yes, her physical is symbolic of what she is now imo. 

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10 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Her behavior aligns with someone who values the letter but not the spirit of charity according to the Faith of the Seven. Letting Septon Meribald go due to his position, but hosting a sham of a trial for her sworn sword and valued companion in life entrusted with rescuing her daughters, strongly indicates this.

She's Rhloors instrument. I don't think the accords of the faith matters much.

Entrusted by the kingslayer 

11 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

I think there could be an argument made either way for Lady Stoneheart. Catelyn definitely snapped at the end of her life, given that she effectively thought that all of her children were dead in those moments, and died with the understand impression that justice and honor were gone from the world.

Angry, sure. But she thinks and acts rationally, no? Compared to her sister?

12 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

I don't generally view hanging people indiscriminately the sign of a sane individual, though

I just explained it wasn't indiscriminate....

12 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Again, there is some of Cat left, but that seems to be rather limited. Furthermore, how much of that was already being done by the Brotherhood Without Banners? She would have no real reason to end this practice unless she needed to in order to serve the ends of vengeance.

Boots on the ground not fighting Lannister. Food being spent on useless mouths.

13 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

No, because their scars aren't indicative of the culmination of their trauma in the final moments of their lives. This isn't an "outer appearance reflects inner appearance in people" argument; it's a "the undead version of a fundamentally good person is hideous inside and out" argument.

Beric would disagree 

 

 

 

12 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Cat would never threaten to hang a child the way LSH did. 

:rolleyes:

Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

13 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I know you’re not asking me, but no, I don’t think she’s crazy. She’s something altogether different than a crazy human being. 

An animorph?

15 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Why not? Just b/c she’s vengeful doesn’t mean she wants revenge on the whole wide world and everyone in it… 

Spirits aren't rational like that 

15 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Completely different situations… scars and physical decay b/c of death, it’s like oranges and rusty wheelbarrows!
Brienne, Jon and Tyrion are alive and have scars b/c of wounds they’ve suffered. LSH was dead for three days, her physical body was already decaying when she was reanimated by Beric. Yes, her physical is symbolic of what she is now imo. 

You shouldn't judge a book about cats by it's cover.

Everything you said is pure conjecture 

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There may be a slight clue to back this thread up from the text.  At the Inn at the Crossroads, the first knight that affirmed their loyalty to Catelyn right before she had Tyrion arrested was Ser Willis Wode a knight from Harrenhal.   When she turns to him, we're given a reminder of her mother's side of the family, the Whents:

Quote

"You in the corner," she said to an older man she had not noticed until now.  "Is that the black bat of Harrenhal I see embroidered on your surcoat, ser?"

The man got to his feet.  "It is, my lady."

"And is Lady Whent a true and honest friend to my father, Lord Hoster Tully of Riverrun?"

"She is," the man replied stoutly.

Wode is an old English word meaning: mad, crazy,  or insane.

So we have a Wode who is with the Whents, Cat's maternal line.

And in the same castle, predating the Whents, are the Lothstons.  The most famous being the red haired, Danelle Lothston, known as Mad Danelle.

Edited by Frey family reunion
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53 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Everything you said is pure conjecture 

What is conjecture? That Cat wouldn’t kill children? That LSH is not mad b/c that’s a diagnosis for people and LSH is anything but? Or is it that LSH’s actions show some discernment? Or maybe that the scars Jon, Tyrion and Brienne have are not the result of wounds suffered while at the same time the fact that LSH is a walking corpse has nothing to do w/ the fact that she was reanimated after being dead for three days? :lol:

28 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

There may be a slight clue to back this thread up from the text.  At the Inn at the Crossroads, the first knight that affirmed their loyalty to Catelyn right before she had Tyrion arrested was Ser Willis Wode a knight from Harrenhal.   When she turns to him, we're given a reminder of her mother's side of the family, the Whents:

Wode is an old English word meaning: mad, crazy,  or insane.

So we have a Wode who is with the Whents, Cat's maternal line.

And in the same castle, predating the Whents, are the Lothstons.  The most famous being the red haired, Danelle Lothston, known as Mad Danelle.

By this metric all families can be labeled mad, and we should have threads about Lannister madness, Arryn insanity, Tyrell craziness, Martell lunacy, etc etc etc. 

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1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

What is conjecture? That Cat wouldn’t kill children? That LSH is not mad b/c that’s a diagnosis for people and LSH is anything but? Or is it that LSH’s actions show some discernment? Or maybe that the scars Jon, Tyrion and Brienne have are not the result of wounds suffered while at the same time the fact that LSH is a walking corpse has nothing to do w/ the fact that she was reanimated after being dead for three days? /cdn-cgi/mirage/38ebc49588ec51a7e100e63ffc3eea541967137b4a73f2ba71d8ca9e7ad1223e/1280/https://asoiaf.westeros.org/uploads/emoticons/default_lol.gif

Yea.

She obviously may kill kids, she wishes Jon croaked after all. Besides, I left the relevant quote last post.

She's people, wtf? She breaths, thinks, tries to talk. Walks on two. You know people stuff.

She's working for Kingslayer Lannister! Under Tommens order with Starks refurbished sword. Like, she's so asking for it! Begging really.

But nah the last parts conjecture, all the rest is just wrong. What difference does it make how long they're out for? It's not a vegetative state, it's magic.

 

 

Thing is, there are zombies in asoiaf. And to compare Catelyn Stark to them is just wrong on so many levels 

(And they are related to the crazy bat lady...)

Edited by Hugorfonics
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5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea.

She obviously may kill kids, she wishes Jon croaked after all. Besides, I left the relevant quote last post.

She's people, wtf? She breaths, thinks, tries to talk. Walks on two. You know people stuff.

She's working for Kingslayer Lannister! Under Tommens order with Starks refurbished sword. Like, she's so asking for it! Begging really.

But nah the last parts conjecture, all the rest is just wrong. What difference does it make how long they're out for? It's not a vegetative state, it's magic.

 

 

Thing is, there are zombies in asoiaf. And to compare Catelyn Stark to them is just wrong on so many levels 

(And they are related to the crazy bat lady...)

She may have wanted to kill Jon, despite there being no evidence for that. Disliking someone and wanting to kill them is not the same thing. And again, wanting to kill someone and actually killing them is not, once more, the same thing, 

She’s not a living breathing human being, she’s a reanimated rotting corpse. Yes, she has some level of discernment, so she’s a rotting corpse with discernment and a mission, that doesn’t mean she’s alive. Do you have any evidence that she breathes for instance? Coldhands doesn’t. Doesn’t eat or sleep either. 
 

But whatever, we’re not going to agree here so I’m letting it go. :cheers:

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GRRM said in an interview that Beric was not alive, so if he's dead, how can he bring a dead person back to life?  He can't, he can only do what was done to him, reanimate a corpse.    

According to George R. R. Martin, Beric is no longer a living being after his first death; his heart does not beat and blood does not flow through his veins. In Martin's own words, Beric is "a wight animated by fire instead of by ice".

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15 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

She may have wanted to kill Jon, despite there being no evidence for that. Disliking someone and wanting to kill them is not the same thing. And again, wanting to kill someone and actually killing them is not, once more, the same thing, 

All of this is addressed in the quote above.

16 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

She’s not a living breathing human being, she’s a reanimated rotting corpse. Yes, she has some level of discernment, so she’s a rotting corpse with discernment and a mission, that doesn’t mean she’s alive. Do you have any evidence that she breathes for instance? Coldhands doesn’t. Doesn’t eat or sleep either. 

You also have a problem with Coldhands?

17 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But whatever, we’re not going to agree here so I’m letting it go. /cdn-cgi/mirage/38ebc49588ec51a7e100e63ffc3eea541967137b4a73f2ba71d8ca9e7ad1223e/1280/https://asoiaf.westeros.org/uploads/emoticons/default_cheers.gif

Cheers, mate

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Just now, Hugorfonics said:

All of this is addressed in the quote above.

No, it isn’t. 

Just now, Hugorfonics said:

You also have a problem with Coldhands?

Huh? I don’t have a problem w/ Coldhands, Coldhands is awesome. :wub:

And I don’t have a problem w/ LSH. 

Just wanted to clarify this.

Just now, Hugorfonics said:

Cheers, mate

:cheers:

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5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Cat would let her speak and explain her actions which, as the reader knows, completely vindicate her.

UnCat experienced betrayal in the last moments of her life and immediately leaps to the conclusion that Brienne has betrayed her too.  Brienne's "trial" is far more Lysa at The Eyrie than Catelyn, who reminded Lysa that Tyrion was her prisoner and who confided to Brynden that she was unsure of his guilt.  UnCat is a travesty of Catelyn.

Which is one of the reasons why I think Jaime is going to be hanged.

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20 minutes ago, LongRider said:

GRRM said in an interview that Beric was not alive, so if he's dead, how can he bring a dead person back to life?  He can't, he can only do what was done to him, reanimate a corpse.    

According to George R. R. Martin, Beric is no longer a living being after his first death; his heart does not beat and blood does not flow through his veins. In Martin's own words, Beric is "a wight animated by fire instead of by ice".

GoT stuff belongs in the other thread.

SSM should imo never be taken as completely true, but when it's about HBOs abomination it shouldn't even be looked at

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

No, it isn’t. 

Huh? I don’t have a problem w/ Coldhands, Coldhands is awesome. /cdn-cgi/mirage/38ebc49588ec51a7e100e63ffc3eea541967137b4a73f2ba71d8ca9e7ad1223e/1280/https://asoiaf.westeros.org/uploads/emoticons/default_wub.png

And I don’t have a problem w/ LSH. 

Just wanted to clarify this.

/cdn-cgi/mirage/38ebc49588ec51a7e100e63ffc3eea541967137b4a73f2ba71d8ca9e7ad1223e/1280/https://asoiaf.westeros.org/uploads/emoticons/default_cheers.gif

Oh.... Ok. Well alright then. Lol :cheers:

 

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2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

SSM should imo never be taken as completely true, but when it's about HBOs abomination it shouldn't even be looked at

While true, he was answering for his own series and the abomination masquerading as an "adaptation" in this instance.

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4 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

While true, he was answering for his own series and the abomination masquerading as an "adaptation" in this instance.

Thank you!  Why listen to author when you don't want to?     :bang:   I'm starting my own hate threads, might as well stop trying to base on comments on the actual text and the actual comments of the author.   

edt; nuances, who cares?

Edited by LongRider
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