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Tully Madness


Sydney Mae
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3 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Thank you!  Why listen to author when you don't want to?     /cdn-cgi/mirage/38ebc49588ec51a7e100e63ffc3eea541967137b4a73f2ba71d8ca9e7ad1223e/1280/https://asoiaf.westeros.org/uploads/emoticons/default_bang.gif   I'm starting my own hate threads, might as well stop trying to base on comments on the actual text and the actual comments of the author.   

edt; nuances, who cares?

Dude text is one thing, or the only thing. 

Offhanded remarks at the local comic con is another.

One actor asking for tips to get into character in GoT is honestly not even looking at... Unless your an actor trying to get into the role of Beric in HBOs game of thrones 

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On 2/22/2023 at 6:58 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Do we?

Do we, the readers, know that Brienne is true to her purpose?  Yes of course we do.  Why question such a clear and obvious statement?  It's the whole purpose of her "knight's quest" through the Riverlands.  What part of her pov chapters leads you to doubt it?

On 2/22/2023 at 6:58 PM, Hugorfonics said:

When destiny will eventually knock on their door in the form of Gregor and Amory?

Amory had a close encounter with a bear iirc.  If unGregor comes calling Brienne will behave as she did at the Inn at The Crossroads when Rorge and co were about to unload on the smallfolk there.

On 2/22/2023 at 6:58 PM, Hugorfonics said:

She obviously trusts Jaime, it's not impossible to think they'd fall back into Lannister hands.

And I thought you dismissed someone else's post as conjecture?  What we know is that Jaime secured Brienne's release from KL and sent her looking for Cat's daughters precisely because he was trying to fulfil his part of the bargain to return them to her in exchange for his release.

On 2/22/2023 at 6:58 PM, Hugorfonics said:

What was Briennes plan?

Are you really suggesting that as she doesn't have a definite plan about how to keep them safe we should doubt her intention to do so?  It really shouldn't be hard to accept that she intends to find and protect them and will deal with the situation as she finds it.

On 2/22/2023 at 6:58 PM, Hugorfonics said:

It's not immediate. It's a long list of sketchy things.

Brienne is recovering from serious wounds suffered in protecting smallfolk from The Bloody Mummers.  Riverlands smallfolk whom Catelyn Tully would have owed her a debt of gratitude and rewarded for bravely protecting.  Instead she's ushered, off balance and unprepared, into a farce of a trial with unCat, the hanging judge, where her guilt is assumed by association and she has to prove her innocence, a notoriously hard thing to do and why our criminal justice system works on the presumption of "innocent until proven guilty" and returns verdicts of guilty and not guilty.  It's more appalling for the reader because we know Brienne's trustworthiness and loyalty.

On 2/22/2023 at 6:58 PM, Hugorfonics said:

But words are wind and Cat forced her to choose action. And Brienne did wind up choosing.

What unCat did was hang Brienne, Hyle Hunt and Podrick Payne for no crime at all.  Brienne chooses not to let Podrick die.  She is watching him kicking on the end of the rope when she decides and yells "sword".

unCat has a new purpose for her sworn sword.  Vengeance against the enemies who betrayed her and brought ruin on her family.  Catelyn had more hope and sent Brienne to recover her daughters. It's much darker.

On 2/22/2023 at 6:58 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Definitely a darker Cat then what we're used to, but ask Snow and he'd say she's regularly dark.

Are you seriously comparing a wife, shamed by her husband's public humiliation of her, being cold towards the bastard son raised along with her own with.....hanging innocents out of anger and callousness?

On 2/22/2023 at 6:58 PM, Hugorfonics said:

But the brotherhood is still feeding and looking out for the vulnerable, at least in the Riverlands so we see both sides of "un"cat like we did prestoneheart.

How would she stop them?  Why would they follow her if she attempted to?  Something of Catelyn Tully remains, it's why the BWB look to her for leadership (plus the whole resurrection thing being a bit awe-inspiring for simple folk) so she's hardly likely to.

On 2/22/2023 at 6:58 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Good call. Very similar. Eerie. 

That's quite good, actually :thumbsup:

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1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

Do we, the readers, know that Brienne is true to her purpose?  Yes of course we do.  Why question such a clear and obvious statement?  It's the whole purpose of her "knight's quest" through the Riverlands.  What part of her pov chapters leads you to doubt it?

I don't doubt her commitment or her heart. Matter of fact I think she's the purest person in asoiaf. The maid of tarth. But this "knights quest" that like mirrors Dunks "knights quests" is cool and chivalrous and stuff but I have very serious concerns about this knights quest, because it's more then that. Its the dragons gullet.

Dunk somehow handled it, can Brienne? She was literally putting more armor on Renly when he was murdered. Now she's gonna dance with skinchangers?

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

Amory had a close encounter with a bear iirc.  If unGregor comes calling Brienne will behave as she did at the Inn at The Crossroads when Rorge and co were about to unload on the smallfolk there.

She almost died, saved by a boy.

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

And I thought you dismissed someone else's post as conjecture?  What we know is that Jaime secured Brienne's release from KL and sent her looking for Cat's daughters precisely because he was trying to fulfil his part of the bargain to return them to her in exchange for his release.

(She never thinks about it so we kinda have to rely on conjecture here. Also it's really important to the plot as opposed to whether Catelyn breaths at normal pace or not.)

Return them. 

What does that mean? To Stoneheart? Back to the pad with Bolton? It's so ambiguous, and if I was angry Catelyn I wouldn't respond well to ambiguity either 

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

Are you really suggesting that as she doesn't have a definite plan about how to keep them safe we should doubt her intention to do so?  It really shouldn't be hard to accept that she intends to find and protect them and will deal with the situation as she finds it.

I do agree that's her intention. And I understand why she did it, it's because of Catelyn. She swore to her that she'd get Sansa back safely (never planned on offing the Imp tho, lots of ambiguity for a bit then too). And an oath made to the dead is double. It's tragic.

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

Brienne is recovering from serious wounds suffered in protecting smallfolk from The Bloody Mummers.  Riverlands smallfolk whom Catelyn Tully would have owed her a debt of gratitude and rewarded for bravely protecting.  Instead she's ushered, off balance and unprepared, into a farce of a trial with unCat, the hanging judge, where her guilt is assumed by association and she has to prove her innocence, a notoriously hard thing to do and why our criminal justice system works on the presumption of "innocent until proven guilty" and returns verdicts of guilty and not guilty.  It's more appalling for the reader because we know Brienne's trustworthiness and loyalty.

Right but Berics justice was the same. Sandor was kinda innocent and shoulda died but Berics sword broke. And when Cat takes command a trial for the Freys is just a nod.

If anything Brienne got a sweet deal. Didn't die. 

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

What unCat did was hang Brienne, Hyle Hunt and Podrick Payne for no crime at all.  Brienne chooses not to let Podrick die.  She is watching him kicking on the end of the rope when she decides and yells "sword".

unCat has a new purpose for her sworn sword.  Vengeance against the enemies who betrayed her and brought ruin on her family.  Catelyn had more hope and sent Brienne to recover her daughters. It's much darker.

Cat doesnt know Jaime is arguing for castles to surrender instead of war or that when he went to KL Sansa wasn't. It's understandable that Jaime should answer to Cat. Did she go hard in getting what she wanted? Sure. Did any one die yet? 

And she admitted her boys were gone, betrayed by the foster child. Said goodbye to her dying father, and judging his treatment of her sister. It started off pretty fucking dark.

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

Are you seriously comparing a wife, shamed by her husband's public humiliation of her, being cold towards the bastard son raised along with her own with.....hanging innocents out of anger and callousness?

She threatened and tried to stop Jon when he was saying goodbye to his possibly dying brother, then told him she wished he was dead. And you know she meant it. That lady could be super fucking cruel.

Briennes innocent. Maybe.

Hyle? He was a knight for Tarly. Definitely guilty of crimes against the Riverlands.

Pod? He was the Imps squire. By helping Tyrion he was hurting Stark. It's a little more ambiguous, but like I said I don't think Catelyn likes ambiguity 

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

How would she stop them?  Why would they follow her if she attempted to?  Something of Catelyn Tully remains, it's why the BWB look to her for leadership (plus the whole resurrection thing being a bit awe-inspiring for simple folk) so she's hardly likely to.

A bit? She rose like Jesus. Christians aren't inspired a bit. 

Yea I mean, the BWB is tailor made for her. So one she's got the religion set up for return. And then she's still Tully so all the smallfolk are obsessed with her anyway then a bunch of the originals were Ned's household staff like Harwin so that loyalty is wrapped up. And then at the end of the day shes looking for Arya who totally stole the hearts of all those vallant knights.

She's definitely the boss.

Quote

That's quite good, actually

Stay humble ;)

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Why do you think they have a fish for their sigil? Unlike dumb fish wannabe ironborn They are half fish mad cultists.

Rare footage of Catelyn leading a dark ritual with halffish cultists.

Not shown here but her legs are tentacles, like her distant kin Varys and Manderly who are merlings.

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On 2/22/2023 at 8:27 PM, Many-Faced Votary said:

The "good side" in her is vastly diminished, and seems to be tied solely to her faith in life rather than her significant personal empathy as well.

The "bad side" in her is drastically intensified, to the point that she isn't anything like Catelyn was in life, as @the trees have eyes alluded to regarding her approach to "trials." It's more a vengeful spirit possessing a corpse than a version of Cat at this point, and you can bet that the physical decay of Lady Stoneheart is meant to reflect her mental and moral decay.

The Cat-Brienne-Jaime intersect is particularly interesting as GRRM is playing with character arcs.

On the one hand we have Cat's tragic story which appeared to end at The Red Wedding but is given new life with Lady Stoneheart.  That name is revealing enough on it's own and doesn't need much explanation.  It might be too much to see her as The Furies unleashed but I see this version of Catelyn as not just a more war-weary and bitter version of herself (like Lysa became) but one who lost something of herself in those two days before she was resurrected and is more ruled by the clearer memories of the end of her life than the fuzzier ones of her earlier life.  This borrows a lot from Beric's exposition and he of course had multiple resurrections and memory losses / reinforcements of his last objective in life but I think it offers insight into what I term unCat.

Then we have Jaime, the boy who wanted to be a dashing knight and the next Arthur Dayne but ended up, in his own thought, becoming The Smiling Knight instead.  Brienne has become the catalyst for him to consider honour, oaths and the purpose of knighthood.  It's no accident that he gave her a sword named Oathkeeper so she could attempt to fulfil his bargain with Catelyn and return her daughters to her bearing her late husband's sword (ok, half of it, but that's the best he could do).  Whether he will find it any easier to do the honourable thing and stick to the ideals of knighthood is open to question: the threat to destroy Riverrun and send Edmure's baby to him from a trebuchet suggests it's work in progress at best.  Brienne, who began this transformative experience and who he goes with unquestioningly, is now leading him to a meeting with unCat...

And Brienne, the most straightforward, honest and loyal character in the book who lives up to the ideal of knighhood better than any knight is about to find out how hard it is always to do the right thing when all your choices are bad.  Stick to an oath even when your Lady orders you to do something "vile" or break your oath?  To an extent it parallels Jaime in KL in Aery's KG.

What is the right thing to do here and who is attempting to do the honourable / right thing or "do justice"? 

GRRM at his best.

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On 2/22/2023 at 9:02 PM, Hugorfonics said:

:rolleyes:

Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

Wait, what?  What is that eyeroll meant to imply?  That of course Catelyn would murder children?

Leaving aside the conjectural hypotheticals Catelyn of course never harms any children and never harms Jon. 

UnCat hangs Pod, why exactly?  Because he is Brienne's de facto squire (actually Tyrion's but he's acting more or less in this capacity) and he is guilty by association.

On 2/22/2023 at 9:27 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Wode is an old English word meaning: mad, crazy,  or insane.

So we have a Wode who is with the Whents, Cat's maternal line.

And in the same castle, predating the Whents, are the Lothstons.  The most famous being the red haired, Danelle Lothston, known as Mad Danelle.

What is the link between the Lothstons and the Whents, though?  Is there any relevance to Danelle Lothston being mad.

On 2/22/2023 at 11:08 PM, Hugorfonics said:

She obviously may kill kids, she wishes Jon croaked after all.

Nah.  She is cold and distant towards him because he is not her son and she makes one particularly unpleasant remark to him when Bran is lying crippled in a coma, the gist of which is she would have preferred it if Jon had been crippled in his place.  Wishing the life-changing accident that befell her favourite son had befallen someone else is not the same as wishing that person dead and being a clear and present threat to his life that she "may" act on. 

What we know is that she expected Ned to raise his bastard out of her sight not in front of her face.  I believe you're mistaking her for Cersei here.

On 2/22/2023 at 11:40 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Which is one of the reasons why I think Jaime is going to be hanged.

Yup.  If she'll hang Brienne and Pod, she'll not want to hear what Jaime has to say or let him swear a second oath to return her daughters to her.  Question is, will Brienne turn into the new "Kingslayer" and decide that unCat has to be stopped and that doing the right thing is more important than her oath of fealty.  I wouldn't put it past GRRM....

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15 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Question is, will Brienne turn into the new "Kingslayer" and decide that unCat has to be stopped and that doing the right thing is more important than her oath of fealty.  I wouldn't put it past GRRM....

I know this might just be wishful thinking, but I think that if/when Brienne sees herself in this situation she’ll do the ‘right’ thing and stand up for Jaime. Because she knows that he has been trying to fulfill his promise to Cat through her, but also b/c she’ll recognise that LSH is not Cat, she’s not the woman she swore an oath to.

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7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I know this might just be wishful thinking, but I think that if/when Brienne sees herself in this situation she’ll do the ‘right’ thing and stand up for Jaime. Because she knows that he has been trying to fulfill his promise to Cat through her, but also b/c she’ll recognise that LSH is not Cat, she’s not the woman she swore an oath to.

It would be a decent parallel though. She does already sympathize?/empathize? with Jaime for what he did, but this I feel would add a new dimension of understanding.

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24 minutes ago, Lord Edmure of Riverrun said:

It would be a decent parallel though. She does already sympathize?/empathize? with Jaime for what he did, but this I feel would add a new dimension of understanding.

You mean Brienne “killing” LSH? I’m not sure it comes to that… 
One issue here is the timing. Because I could even see Brienne giving LSH the gift of mercy,  but I don’t see this happening before the Red Wedding 2.0 and especially before she meets either Sansa or Arya. 
I have also believed for a long time that Jaime may end up leading the BwB. But again, the timing is an issue, since I don’t see him participating in the upcoming and improved wedding massacre. 
So maybe Brienne could have taken Jaime somewhere else and not to meet LSH - then they hide somewhere while Red Wedding 2.0 happens, LSH meets one of her daughters or hears from Bran via weirnet, gets the gift of mercy somehow, and then Brienne and Jaime meet with the BwB again. But none of that’s happening since Pod and Hunt are probably still captives of the BwB and Brienne must know that if she doesn’t come back both are as good as dead. 

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On 2/24/2023 at 2:06 AM, Hugorfonics said:

I don't doubt her commitment or her heart.

She almost died, saved by a boy.

So you don't doubt that her commitment is to fulfilling her oath to Cat.  Ok, we agree.  Except you challenged the idea that the reader knows that Brienne's actions vindicate her.  This is contradictory.

If, as your comment on her actions at The Crossroads Inn seems to imply, you are questioning her ability to deliver on that oath then that's something else entirely.  Were the KG who died at The Tower of Joy obeying Rhaegar's last command somehow guilty because they failed?

On 2/24/2023 at 2:06 AM, Hugorfonics said:

Return them. 

What does that mean? To Stoneheart? Back to the pad with Bolton? It's so ambiguous, and if I was angry Catelyn I wouldn't respond well to ambiguity either 

Return them to her.  There is no ambiguity in that at all.  With Catelyn dead Brienne meant to find and protect them.  A wild goose chase and a fool's errand perhaps but one in which she was sincere.  Except Catelyn is not dead so there's a twist.

On 2/24/2023 at 2:06 AM, Hugorfonics said:

Right but Berics justice was the same. Sandor was kinda innocent and shoulda died but Berics sword broke. And when Cat takes command a trial for the Freys is just a nod.

Sandor was not innocent.  Arya specifically accused him of the murder of Mycah of which he is guilty.  He claimed he was duty bound to obey as Joffrey alleged Mycah had attacked him.  This is what Beric tries him by combat for.

Brienne, Hyle Hunt and Podric are guilty of nothing.  They are hanged for suspicion and association with the wrong side.

The Freys hanged are guilty of involvement in The Red Wedding.  We see that with Merrit Frey in the ASOS epilogue with Petyr Pimple and Merrett Frey.

Brienne did not get a "sweet deal" because she survived a hanging as she has done nothing to be punished for.

On 2/24/2023 at 2:06 AM, Hugorfonics said:

Cat doesnt know Jaime is arguing for castles to surrender instead of war or that when he went to KL Sansa wasn't. It's understandable that Jaime should answer to Cat. Did she go hard in getting what she wanted? Sure. Did any one die yet? 

And she admitted her boys were gone, betrayed by the foster child. Said goodbye to her dying father, and judging his treatment of her sister. It started off pretty fucking dark.

I've no idea what you are trying to say here.  If you are saying unCat is hanging Brienne and co in order to force Brienne to bring her Jaime, then yes, I follow. 

If you are saying that this is part of a pattern because of a) a cruel statement to Jon and b) a bit of exposition to the reader that reveals the reason for Lysa's deep unhappiness and resentment of her family and are somehow equating these actions with embracing the end justifies the means and hanging children as a bit of persuasion then I think that's a bit silly.

On 2/24/2023 at 2:06 AM, Hugorfonics said:

She threatened and tried to stop Jon when he was saying goodbye to his possibly dying brother, then told him she wished he was dead. And you know she meant it. That lady could be super fucking cruel.

So you have an issue with Catelyn.  Ok.  But this is not factual or objective at all.  She never wishes Jon dead.  She wishes her son was whole and well and she effectively tells Jon she would have him trade places with Bran.  I believe that 100% just as I believe she would have preferred any other child than her own to suffer that fate.  A cruel comment is not the same thing as hanging someone.  Does this really need to be argued.

On 2/24/2023 at 2:06 AM, Hugorfonics said:

Briennes innocent. Maybe.

Hyle? He was a knight for Tarly. Definitely guilty of crimes against the Riverlands.

Pod? He was the Imps squire. By helping Tyrion he was hurting Stark. It's a little more ambiguous, but like I said I don't think Catelyn likes ambiguity 

The Catelyn Tully who took Tyrion, whom she believed arranged the attempted murder of her son (kudos LF for misdirection) intended to have him tried by Robert.  That person did not hang him an his serving man and would not have hanged three people for being on the other "side". 

Resurrected unCat is something different and darker however you try and portray pov Catelyn as as a ruthless child-killer for being mean to Jon.  Catelyn =/= Cersei.

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10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

So you don't doubt that her commitment is to fulfilling her oath to Cat.  Ok, we agree.  Except you challenged the idea that the reader knows that Brienne's actions vindicate her.  This is contradictory.

She's like a chicken with her head cut off. Shs going places, but it's not far.

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

If, as your comment on her actions at The Crossroads Inn seems to imply, you are questioning her ability to deliver on that oath then that's something else entirely. 

That's a huge point. She swore to defend Renly, swore to return Jaime safely. She didn't.

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Were the KG who died at The Tower of Joy obeying Rhaegar's last command somehow guilty because they failed?

Yes. Definitely.

But they're dead so it's not like they're gonna get punished.

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Return them to her.  There is no ambiguity in that at all.  With Catelyn dead Brienne meant to find and protect them

From what? Petyr? The faceless men? She's in way over her head. (And gods forbid the girls fight each other, like theyve always done, what'll she do then?)

And like I said she wasn't planning on offing the Imp when she found out about his marriage, so it is possible for her to be dissuaded.

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

A wild goose chase and a fool's errand perhaps but one in which she was sincere.  Except Catelyn is not dead so there's a twist.

Well if it's like that then she's totally under Cats leadership and shouldn't baulk about bringing in the kingslayer 

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Sandor was not innocent.  Arya specifically accused him of the murder of Mycah of which he is guilty.  He claimed he was duty bound to obey as Joffrey alleged Mycah had attacked him.  This is what Beric tries him by combat for.

Robert decreed Mycah the guilty party, so Sandor was acting in the law. That's called not guilty.

Besides, my point was the farce of Berics trials are the same as Stonehearts

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Brienne, Hyle Hunt and Podric are guilty of nothing.  They are hanged for suspicion and association with the wrong side.

Hunt did war crimes against the Riverlands. Obviously guilty.

Pod fought in Blackwater. Less guilty.

Anybody the brotherhood would come across that's not Brienne but carries orders from Tommen is not only guilty but probable to do more.

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Brienne did not get a "sweet deal" because she survived a hanging as she has done nothing to be punished for.

You think it's bitter? 

How about as GRRM would say, bittersweet.

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I've no idea what you are trying to say here.  If you are saying unCat is hanging Brienne and co in order to force Brienne to bring her Jaime, then yes, I follow. 

Yah

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

If you are saying that this is part of a pattern because of a) a cruel statement to Jon

I wouldn't call it a pattern, but idk what word to use so I wont dispute it either. 

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

a bit of exposition to the reader that reveals the reason for Lysa's deep unhappiness and resentment of her family and are somehow equating these actions with embracing the end justifies the means and hanging children as a bit of persuasion then I think that's a bit silly.

No I wasn't trying to say that.

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

So you have an issue with Catelyn.  Ok.  But this is not factual or objective at all.  She never wishes Jon dead.  She wishes her son was whole and well and she effectively tells Jon she would have him trade places with Bran.  I believe that 100% just as I believe she would have preferred any other child than her own to suffer that fate.  A cruel comment is not the same thing as hanging someone.  Does this really need to be argued.

It's not the same, but someone who was never cruel imo is less likely to do cruel stuff even if pushed to the limit.

And I don't have an issue with Catelyn. I love Cat! She's just a horrid stepmom.

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

The Catelyn Tully who took Tyrion, whom she believed arranged the attempted murder of her son (kudos LF for misdirection) intended to have him tried by Robert. 

She didnt

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

That person did not hang him an his serving man and would not have hanged three people for being on the other "side". 

But she probably should have

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Resurrected unCat is something different and darker however you try and portray pov Catelyn as as a ruthless child-killer for being mean to Jon.  Catelyn =/= Cersei.

She's darker, sure. So is Tyrion Arya and Moonboy for all I know. Doesn't make them a different character tho

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12 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

She's like a chicken with her head cut off. Shs going places, but it's not far.

She is following what leads she has.  They amount to little more than rumour but a headless chicken?  She makes the best decisions possible with the limited information she has.  Are the BWB looking for Arya headless chickens too?

12 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

That's a huge point. She swore to defend Renly, swore to return Jaime safely. She didn't.

Yes. Definitely.

But they're dead so it's not like they're gonna get punished.

So someone who dies in battle fighting for their Lord is guilty of breaking their oath even though they are actually fulfilling their oath while fighting and just happen to die?

I know you like to be contrarian but this is really nonsensical.  Was Rodrik a traitor for losing WF to The Ironborn and being betrayed by Ramsay?  After all he failed in his duty.

You may doubt Brienne's ability to find the girls but so what?  Catelyn sent her to KL to conduct an agreed prisoner swap but the "terms" she agreed are impossible to fulfil.  Doesn't make Brienne guilty of bad faith or "guilt by failure".  She is following through on her duty by attempting to find and protect them.

12 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

And like I said she wasn't planning on offing the Imp when she found out about his marriage, so it is possible for her to be dissuaded.

What?  When Brienne and Jaime arrive at KL she is a prisoner and Tyrion is in a cell as an accused regicide.  He later escapes and Jaime sets Brienne free to search for Sansa, now also wanted as a potential conspirator in regicide.  How is she dissuaded from carrying out her duty to find and protect the girls?

12 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Well if it's like that then she's totally under Cats leadership and shouldn't baulk about bringing in the kingslayer 

Why?  She is attempting to recover Catelyn's daughters.  She knows Jaime doesn't have them or know where they are.  He specifically told her that the Boltons did not have Arya so she would not go off on the wrong track (something the BWB of course already knew) but she knows Jaime has tried to fulfil his part of the deal, at least by allowing Brienne to search for them as a proxy.

She's then hanged by unCat for association with Jaime.  UnCat, one of whose last memories in life was Roose Bolton saying to Robb "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" and thrusting his sword through his heart.  UnCat is about vengeance for the betrayals done to her and Brienne's "betrayal", not a betrayal at all, sees her and her associates on the end of a rope.  What happens is she doesn't yell "sword"?

Brienne is injured and off-balance and she knows Jaime can't help return the girls.

12 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Robert decreed Mycah the guilty party, so Sandor was acting in the law. That's called not guilty.

Did he?  Cersei wanted Mycah dead and Arya punished.  Robert called Arya to tell her version of events and Arya and Joffery contradicted each other.  Sandor heard from "the prince's own lips" that Mycah attacked him.  Robert is negligent and removes himself from the situation in half-assed Robert style.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Besides, my point was the farce of Berics trials are the same as Stonehearts

But they're not.  The guilty are punished not the innocent.  UnCat is a witness to Merrett and Petyr Pimple's involvement.  When Sandor is captured the smallfolk accuse him of all of Gregor's actions which he denies and Beric acknowledges.  Only when Arya accuses him of killing Mycah and he admits to it is there a valid charge and a trial.  The Hound chooses trial by combat because he expects to win - which he does, despite killing a wholly innocent Mycah.  Brienne and Pod just end up dangling form a rope.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Hunt did war crimes against the Riverlands. Obviously guilty.

Pod fought in Blackwater. Less guilty.

Anybody the brotherhood would come across that's not Brienne but carries orders from Tommen is not only guilty but probable to do more.

You can rationalise this as "war to the knife" and anyone on the other side can be killed on sight but then you acknowledge that trials are unnecessary and just execute people out of hand.  Which is effectively what a kangaroo court and farce of a trial amounts to anyway, just with a fig leaf and pretence of legitimacy.

Hunt was a household knight of Tarly's not one of the Bloody Mummers or Lorch / Gregor's reaving parties.  Beric required evidence of Sandor's wrongdoing before moving for a trial.  What evidence of Hunt's wrongdoing was sought?  None, it's just team colours and guilt by association.

The BWB are darker.  Lem even dons The Hound's helm despite what Rorge did at Saltpans wearing it.  The symbolism is not accidental.  It's part of the tapestry of gloom and decay and horror that GRRM gives us in AFFC and unCat's decaying body and vengeful actions are part of that.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

How about as GRRM would say, bittersweet.

What is bittersweet about being hanged for betraying an oath you did not betray?  Or being tortured into agreeing to trick a man into becoming a hostage / prisoner likely bound for execution, when you know that man has tried to assist in fulfilling his bargain and helping you fulfil your oath?

It's dark and dirty, not bittersweet.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

No I wasn't trying to say that.

So I'm not sure what your comment about Cat judging her father's actions with Lysa's teenage pregnancy was to illustrate.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

It's not the same, but someone who was never cruel imo is less likely to do cruel stuff even if pushed to the limit.

Saying hurtful things is not a clue that someone may torture people or hang people after sham trials.  That's a non sequitur.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

And I don't have an issue with Catelyn. I love Cat! She's just a horrid stepmom.

I haven't heard that one in a while.  She is not his stepmom, foster mother, hostess offering him board and lodging as a guest.  In a pseudo-medieval world there simply is no relationship between them and Ned, raising his bastard along side her trueborn children, is offering her and House Tully a very large insult. 

That doesn't translate well into the modern view of family arrangements but it's realistic for the "time".  She would not expect to ever have to see or interact with him but Ned keeps him close for obvious reasons.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

But she probably should have

There's lots of reasons not to but for someone of Caelyn's character lack of evidence of guilt is the overriding one.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

She's darker, sure. So is Tyrion Arya and Moonboy for all I know. Doesn't make them a different character tho

Depends what you mean by "different".  Tyrion is a fair-ish comparison as he too is betrayed by those around him (really only Shae) and took revenge on her and his father.  But his conduct in general is more problematic over a longer timeframe - taking Tommen hostage and threatening whatever done to Alyya(?) would be done to him, Symmond Silvertongue ending up in a bowl of brown - before he snaps.

Catelyn was true to herself up until the last moments of her life at The Red Wedding when she cut Aegon Jinglebell's throat.  You seem to see that person and her resurrected self as all the same, just part of a natural progression under pressure.  I see it as more of a break, perhaps a psychotic break as her last moments were so traumatic, with that influence on her personality and memories hardened (as with Beric) by her resurrection.

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1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

She makes the best decisions possible with the limited information she has. 

So does the chicken.

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

Are the BWB looking for Arya headless chickens too?

If you'd like. 

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

So someone who dies in battle fighting for their Lord is guilty of breaking their oath even though they are actually fulfilling their oath while fighting and just happen to die?

I know you like to be contrarian but this is really nonsensical.  Was Rodrik a traitor for losing WF to The Ironborn and being betrayed by Ramsay?  After all he failed in his duty.

I don't like to be contrarian, it's just the rest of the world is crazy.

Yes! It's fucked up and kinda unfair but thems the breaks. Jon Conn failed and was exiled, in like the French rev mad generals got killed for a military blunder. 

They swore to do so and so, they didn't. They definitely failed in their duty, I wouldn't go so far to call them traitors although the Committee of Public Safety did.

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

You may doubt Brienne's ability to find the girls but so what?  Catelyn sent her to KL to conduct an agreed prisoner swap but the "terms" she agreed are impossible to fulfil.  Doesn't make Brienne guilty of bad faith or "guilt by failure".  She is following through on her duty by attempting to find and protect them.

Word

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

What?  When Brienne and Jaime arrive at KL she is a prisoner and Tyrion is in a cell as an accused regicide.  He later escapes and Jaime sets Brienne free to search for Sansa, now also wanted as a potential conspirator in regicide.  How is she dissuaded from carrying out her duty to find and protect the girls?

We don't have her thoughts, and she got lucky that Tyrions marriage and stuff ended but if it didn't it seems like she'd let Mrs. Lannister be

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

Why?  She is attempting to recover Catelyn's daughters.  She knows Jaime doesn't have them or know where they are.  He specifically told her that the Boltons did not have Arya so she would not go off on the wrong track (something the BWB of course already knew) but she knows Jaime has tried to fulfil his part of the deal, at least by allowing Brienne to search for them as a proxy.

She's then hanged by unCat for association with Jaime.  UnCat, one of whose last memories in life was Roose Bolton saying to Robb "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" and thrusting his sword through his heart.  UnCat is about vengeance for the betrayals done to her and Brienne's "betrayal", not a betrayal at all, sees her and her associates on the end of a rope.  What happens is she doesn't yell "sword"?

Brienne is injured and off-balance and she knows Jaime can't help return the girls.

She'd die. And I agree Jaime won't be much help in getting the girls back but his death or turning would be great for the war effort.

And she swore all types of things 

Quote

The tall girl knelt awkwardly, unsheathed Renly's longsword, and laid it at her feet. "Then I am yours, my lady. Your liege man, or . . . whatever you would have me be. I will shield your back and keep your counsel and give my life for yours, if need be. I swear it by the old gods and the new."

"And I vow that you shall always have a place by my hearth and meat and mead at my table, and pledge to ask no service of you that might bring you into dishonor. I swear it by the old gods and the new. Arise."

(And there's a good argument that Cats asking her to do something dishonorable here because Jaime was a friend. But he's also the kingslayer and taking him out is also pretty honorable)

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

Did he?  Cersei wanted Mycah dead and Arya punished.  Robert called Arya to tell her version of events and Arya and Joffery contradicted each other.  Sandor heard from "the prince's own lips" that Mycah attacked him.  Robert is negligent and removes himself from the situation in half-assed Robert style.

That's the way he governs. Prince of the blood was struck and the prince wasn't declared guilty.

 

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

But they're not.  The guilty are punished not the innocent.  UnCat is a witness to Merrett and Petyr Pimple's involvement.  When Sandor is captured the smallfolk accuse him of all of Gregor's actions which he denies and Beric acknowledges.  Only when Arya accuses him of killing Mycah and he admits to it is there a valid charge and a trial.  The Hound chooses trial by combat because he expects to win - which he does, despite killing a wholly innocent Mycah.  Brienne and Pod just end up dangling form a rope

They chose Arya's because it was concrete, Sandor was still going to face trial. And he choose trial by combat because otherwise it'd obviously be a farce like any other Westerosi trial (Tyrions, dunks)

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

You can rationalise this as "war to the knife" and anyone on the other side can be killed on sight but then you acknowledge that trials are unnecessary and just execute people out of hand.  Which is effectively what a kangaroo court and farce of a trial amounts to anyway, just with a fig leaf and pretence of legitimacy.

Hunt was a household knight of Tarly's not one of the Bloody Mummers or Lorch / Gregor's reaving parties.  Beric required evidence of Sandor's wrongdoing before moving for a trial.  What evidence of Hunt's wrongdoing was sought?  None, it's just team colours and guilt by association.

Definitely. Kangaroo courts at court, it's the middle ages. But in the woods with outlaws? The fact that Hunt is an occupying soldier is enough guilt.

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

The BWB are darker.  Lem even dons The Hound's helm despite what Rorge did at Saltpans wearing it.  The symbolism is not accidental.  It's part of the tapestry of gloom and decay and horror that GRRM gives us in AFFC and unCat's decaying body and vengeful actions are part of that.

Yea definitely. Whole worlds like that though. Arya's going blind, Cersei is getting jerred. And then the end of Dance is really dark too.

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

What is bittersweet about being hanged for betraying an oath you did not betray?  Or being tortured into agreeing to trick a man into becoming a hostage / prisoner likely bound for execution, when you know that man has tried to assist in fulfilling his bargain and helping you fulfil your oath?

It's dark and dirty, not bittersweet.

Really bitter, little sweet. Like McDonald's coffee with 1/2 a sugar.

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

So I'm not sure what your comment about Cat judging her father's actions with Lysa's teenage pregnancy was to illustrate.

Uhh, I was responding to this

On 2/23/2023 at 7:39 PM, the trees have eyes said:

unCat has a new purpose for her sworn sword.  Vengeance against the enemies who betrayed her and brought ruin on her family.  Catelyn had more hope and sent Brienne to recover her daughters. It's much darker.

With this (sry I wasn't clearer)

On 2/23/2023 at 9:06 PM, Hugorfonics said:

And she admitted her boys were gone, betrayed by the foster child. Said goodbye to her dying father, and judging his treatment of her sister. It started off pretty fucking dark.

 

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

Saying hurtful things is not a clue that someone may torture people or hang people after sham trials.  That's a non sequitur.

GRRM painted her with a cruel streak on purpose 

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

I haven't heard that one in a while.  She is not his stepmom, foster mother, hostess offering him board and lodging as a guest.  In a pseudo-medieval world there simply is no relationship between them and Ned, raising his bastard along side her trueborn children, is offering her and House Tully a very large insult. 

That doesn't translate well into the modern view of family arrangements but it's realistic for the "time".  She would not expect to ever have to see or interact with him but Ned keeps him close for obvious reasons.

Whatever 

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

There's lots of reasons not to but for someone of Caelyn's character lack of evidence of guilt is the overriding one.

For the sake of justice or truth? Yea dont hang Tyrion. For the sake of hit the Lannisters any way you can because they're gonna murder your family and kidnap Sansa. Yeah, probably wouldn't have hurt.

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

Depends what you mean by "different".  Tyrion is a fair-ish comparison as he too is betrayed by those around him (really only Shae) and took revenge on her and his father.  But his conduct in general is more problematic over a longer timeframe - taking Tommen hostage and threatening whatever done to Alyya(?) would be done to him, Symmond Silvertongue ending up in a bowl of brown - before he snaps.

Catelyn was true to herself up until the last moments of her life at The Red Wedding when she cut Aegon Jinglebell's throat.  You seem to see that person and her resurrected self as all the same, just part of a natural progression under pressure.  I see it as more of a break, perhaps a psychotic break as her last moments were so traumatic, with that influence on her personality and memories hardened (as with Beric) by her resurrection.

I don't think any of that was problematic (kinda gross he put him in the bowl of brown tho lol) but I definitely agree its dark. And true, Arya also goes through a dark path of being a mouse to an outlaw to a squire to now an assassin.

But Cat wasn't sailing smooth until AegonF. She arrested Tyrion, yelled at her dad, freed Jaime. But again I don't think any of this is a big deal (like Arya and her soup). But she definitely has been progressively going darker since her doom premonition in the first book.

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2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

So does the chicken.

You do know the chicken's not processing any information and making any decisions, right?  However droll it is to compare Brienne's efforts to reflex muscular actions, it's just silly.

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

If you'd like. 

I don't.  I was interested in how far you would extend your glib analogy.  Looking for someone in hiding and when the trail has gone cold isn't easy but it's not unthinking either.

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yes! It's fucked up and kinda unfair but thems the breaks. Jon Conn failed and was exiled, in like the French rev mad generals got killed for a military blunder. 

They swore to do so and so, they didn't. They definitely failed in their duty, I wouldn't go so far to call them traitors although the Committee of Public Safety did.

How silly.  Scapegoating is a thing but it's just a way of assigning blame to someone expendable.  Failure does not imply guilt or betrayal, and blaming those who fail is just a way of offering up targets to popular anger that shield those really in power from the consequences of failure.  Or for crazed despots to vent their fury like Aerys. 

Most French generals were Ancien Regime noblemen who were, often correctly, suspected of a lack of loyalty for the increasingly rabid and revolutionary government.

In any case Brienne is still looking for the girls, both of whom are alive, whereabouts yet to be discovered.

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

We don't have her thoughts, and she got lucky that Tyrions marriage and stuff ended but if it didn't it seems like she'd let Mrs. Lannister be

We don't have her thoughts but you can draw conclusions about what she would do? Convenient

What we do know is she's a prisoner on her own and with the agreed prisoner swap no longer in force.  When she regains her freedom she does the only thing she can, go looking for them, specifically "Mrs Lannister".  We most certainly do have her thoughts on this.

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

That's the way he governs. Prince of the blood was struck and the prince wasn't declared guilty.

The Hound follows Cersei's and Joffrey's orders in this not Robert's.  If the Prince's word is law and is reinforced by Robert not saying "no" then Arya is guilty too.  Except of course this is not how Robert acts or what happens. 

Sandor is not exonerated by Robert's negligence which is why Beric, a knight acting in the Riverlands under a charge from Ned, Robert's Hand, to do justice in Robert's name, tries him based on Arya's accusation.  Sandor knows he has no evidence of Mycah's guilt and that he killed him on Joffrey's word alone and that Arya is a witness to what happened.  Sandor has admitted guilt so he chooses trial by combat.  Robert had the power to ignore "doing justice" when it was complicated and did not give a damn about Mycah.  Beric is a very different paladin-like character.

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

They chose Arya's because it was concrete, Sandor was still going to face trial. And he choose trial by combat because otherwise it'd obviously be a farce like any other Westerosi trial (Tyrions, dunks)

I disagree.  The smallfolk pour out all their frustrations and Sandor becomes the target of all their grievances but he correctly points out that he is not Gregor and did none of these things.  None of them can legitimately lay a charge against him and Beric sees this.  Only when Arya accuses him of murdering Mycah is he tried.  There is no follow-up trial for all the other stuff because none of that has any substance - and with Sandor being at KL with Joffrey while it was happening he has an obvious alibi.  It's why they let him go afterwards.  Beric does not abuse his position or power to settle scores.

Despite your cynicism there is justice even if it's from a Knight who is effectively now an outlaw.  UnCat's judicial lynching of Brienne is intended to show the darkness taking hold and the corruption of an ideal.

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Definitely. Kangaroo courts at court, it's the middle ages. But in the woods with outlaws? The fact that Hunt is an occupying soldier is enough guilt.

Not for Ned, not for Catelyn and not for Beric.  Hostages held for ransom or prisoners for exchange would be much more likely.

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:
On 2/24/2023 at 2:06 AM, Hugorfonics said:

And she admitted her boys were gone, betrayed by the foster child. Said goodbye to her dying father, and judging his treatment of her sister. It started off pretty fucking dark.

If you mean Catelyn's arc is one of suffering, deepening gloom and ends in tragedy, then yes.  If you mean Catelyn herself is cruel and dark and life's experiences exacerbate this then I profoundly disagree.  She is herself until The Red Wedding.  Since then she is different and it's not just how she looks.

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

GRRM painted her with a cruel streak on purpose 

Sigh.  I never really understand the "Catelyn is the worst person in the world because she was mean to Jon" argument any more than the thread of all threads

Spoiler

"Sansa Stark is a psychopath"

but she makes one cruel remark to him when Bran is lying crippled.  That is the argument for her "cruelty" and for seeing her hanging Pod and Brienne as just a progression of her demonstrably cruel nature?

That's some pretty weak sauce to go with your chicken.  Enjoy!

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Whatever 

Ok? Word?

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

For the sake of justice or truth? Yea dont hang Tyrion. For the sake of hit the Lannisters any way you can because they're gonna murder your family and kidnap Sansa. Yeah, probably wouldn't have hurt.

Justice.  Yes, that's what we're talking about and why her treatment of Brienne is appalling.

Tyrion.  Well, she didn't have a crystal ball and if she had she would have done better to tell Ned to wise up and not tell Cersei everything or trust LF than to hang Tyrion and his serving man.  That would have just led to Jaime killing Ned in KL along with his men....

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

But Cat wasn't sailing smooth until AegonF. She arrested Tyrion, yelled at her dad, freed Jaime. But again I don't think any of this is a big deal (like Arya and her soup). But she definitely has been progressively going darker since her doom premonition in the first book.

What?  Her actions are not "dark" until she kills Aegon Jinglebell in grief and rage.  We're in her pov, we see her despair and then see her lose her touch with reality when Roose Bolton kills Robb. 

Arresting Tyrion was an entirely rational action not "dark" or "cruel"; she never "yelled at her dad" at all, maybe you are mistaking the show for the books; and she freed Jaime in order to secure the return of her daughters, you know, the bit that's germane to how she later treats Brienne.  This is not her character getting "darker", it's the reality of events turning against the Starks.  She is herself until The Red Wedding.

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On 2/24/2023 at 1:14 PM, the trees have eyes said:

What is the link between the Lothstons and the Whents, though?  Is there any relevance to Danelle Lothston being mad.

It’s only a guess, but I think a Ser Whent married Danelle Lothston, starting House Whent at Harrenhal.  My guess is the sigil of House Whent adopted the Lothston bat.  

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7 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

You do know the chicken's not processing any information and making any decisions, right?  However droll it is to compare Brienne's efforts to reflex muscular actions, it's just silly.

I thought it was funny 

7 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Failure does not imply guilt or betrayal

It often can imply incompetence

7 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

The Hound follows Cersei's and Joffrey's orders in this not Robert's.  If the Prince's word is law and is reinforced by Robert not saying "no" then Arya is guilty too

Roberts king. This is what Sandor said btw. Arya threw lions tooth in the water, she wasn't accused of beating him. (And come on, what are they gonna do?)

7 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Despite your cynicism there is justice even if it's from a Knight who is effectively now an outlaw.

If you wanna call it that, but if you think they woulda let Sandor out with no trial then you gotta take off your rose tints

7 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Hostages held for ransom or prisoners for exchange would be much more likely.

I suppose that's usually true

7 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I never really understand the "Catelyn is the worst person in the world because she was mean to Jon" argument any more than the thread of all threads

Read agot. And she's not the worst, just because a character isn't 100% perfect (none are, looking at you Brienne) doesn't make em the worst. Just the worst roommate, or whatever joke of a medieval word you choose to use. (I mean, Cinderella had it worse)

7 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Justice.  Yes, that's what we're talking about and why her treatment of Brienne is appalling.

She's dripped head to toe in guilty evidence. Has no concrete plans for the future and won't shut the fuck up about Jaimes green eyes. 

If you don't wanna look at these then you'll stay appalled 

7 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

This is not her character getting "darker", it's the reality of events turning against the Starks.

The whole world is getting darker, Catelyns just fitting in

7 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Ok? Word?

:D Word

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10 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

It’s only a guess, but I think a Ser Whent married Danelle Lothston, starting House Whent at Harrenhal.  My guess is the sigil of House Whent adopted the Lothston bat.  

So unless the Whents who inherited Harrenhall were descended from Mad Danelle there is no relevance. 

Or do you want to argue Mad Danelle was presenting the Lothston family madness that has now been passed by the Lothstons to the Whents, Tullys, Starks and a bunch of other Houses in Westeros? 

There's a "mad" Hightower, aka Malora the mad maid, and Mace Tyrell is married to Alerie (nee Hightower) so that would mean all the Tyrells, from Garlan to Wylas, Loras to Margery are at risk of presenting inherited madness.  And all the other families Hightowers have married into and the families that those children have married into.

The Targs are set up as at risk of inherited madness due to a long period of inbreeding.  Really they should have some physical or mental abnormalities as certain of the later Habsburgs did rather than presenting as normal before flipping but that's the way GRRM went.  No other family has any inherited madness in story.

I get you are pointing out connections and language references as curiosities but that's all this is.

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11 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I thought it was funny 

You would.

11 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

It often can imply incompetence

Or not.  It can imply orders given without enough information to make them feasible, it can imply changing circumstances or unforeseen developments or evenly matched forces, it can imply a competent commander nonetheless being outgeneralled, or bad weather or bad luck.

Brienne is not hanged for incompetence.  Catelyn would not have hanged her at all.  Any more than Rhaegar or Robb would have hanged Dayne & Co or Rodrik for failure, any more than they would have deemed them oathbreakers or guilty for failure.  If they would have it would have been monstrously unjust and quite obviously not in keeping with their characters.

11 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Roberts king. This is what Sandor said btw. Arya threw lions tooth in the water, she wasn't accused of beating him. (And come on, what are they gonna do?)

This is all wrong.

First, Cersei accuses Arya of attacking Joffrey because this is the version of events that Joffrey has told his parents and everyone else:

A Game of Thrones - Eddard III

"And what business is that?" Ned put ice in his voice.
The queen stepped forward. "You know full well, Stark. This girl of yours attacked my son. Her and her butcher's boy. That animal of hers tried to tear his arm off."
 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard III

"That's not true," Arya said loudly. "She just bit him a little. He was hurting Mycah."
"Joff told us what happened," the queen said. "You and the butcher boy beat him with clubs while you set your wolf on him."
 
Second, Sandor does not say Robert told him this or that he was following Robert's orders.

A Storm of Swords - Arya VI

"Did you see the boy attack Prince Joffrey?" Lord Beric Dondarrion asked the Hound.
"I heard it from the royal lips. It's not my place to question princes."

Princes not Kings.  Joffrey told him this and as Joffrey's sworn shield he want after Mycah.

Robert suspects his son is lying and of course has no intention of punishing Arya.  He does not spare a thought for Mycah who Cersei, Joffrey and Sandor have ensured has already been punished.  Except he is innocent of course and Beric tries Sandor for this crime.

It's your argument that Robert either ordered Mycah's death or, by failing to countermand Cersei and Joffrey's actions, approved it and so Sandor's trial is a farce because Sandor is innocent / acting within the law.  I'm pointing out this is wrong at every level.

11 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

If you wanna call it that, but if you think they woulda let Sandor out with no trial then you gotta take off your rose tints

You know that they do let him go without trying him on trumped-up charges, right?

11 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I suppose that's usually true

The BWB under Beric are Robin Hood and his merry men while the Lannisters are the Sheriff of Nottingham's men (GRRM style of course).  They protect the smallfolk as best they can and ransom high-value hostages for money to buy food to feed the smallfolk.  We know this because Harwin tells it to Arya.

11 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Read agot. And she's not the worst, just because a character isn't 100% perfect

Right.  Maybe you should re-read as your impressions seem off the mark.  Catelyn is not perfect, no.  Catelyn is not "the worst", no.  We agree on that at least.  Your criticisms of and inferences from her treatment of Jon are vastly overblown.  She resents him and ignores him.  She's not his mom or stepmom so it doesn't matter at all or clue us into her "cruel nature".

11 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

She's dripped head to toe in guilty evidence. Has no concrete plans for the future and won't shut the fuck up about Jaimes green eyes. 

If you don't wanna look at these then you'll stay appalled 

Jesus, man.  The surface impression is compromising.  As I said at the very beginning, we, the readers, know the truth of her actions and intentions and that a proper questioning would entirely vindicate her.  That's what justice is about.  The reader knows Brienne is true to her word and it should take five minutes of conversation to establish that.  This is not how Catelyn behaves pre-resurrection.  If you can't see any of this then you've got some real blinkers on.

11 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

:D Word

Weird, more like.

Edited by the trees have eyes
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6 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Jesus, man.  The surface impression is compromising.  As I said at the very beginning, we, the readers, know the truth of her actions and intentions and that a proper questioning would entirely vindicate her.  That's what justice is about.  The reader knows Brienne is true to her word and it should take five minutes of conversation to establish that.  This is not how Catelyn behaves pre-resurrection.  If you can't see any of this then you've got some real blinkers on.

They had five minutes of conversation, she appeared compromised. Hence the reason she was forced to choose sword or die with her companions. This is not how Catelyn behaves pre-resurrection, however it is post. The darkness that Cats experienced compounded with Briennes possible guilt is character growth, commonly referred to as an arc. 
I feel like we're going in circles here.

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