Tully Madness

[Frey family reunion]

8 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

So unless the Whents who inherited Harrenhall were descended from Mad Danelle there is no relevance. 

Or do you want to argue Mad Danelle was presenting the Lothston family madness that has now been passed by the Lothstons to the Whents, Tullys, Starks and a bunch of other Houses in Westeros? 

There's a "mad" Hightower, aka Malora the mad maid, and Mace Tyrell is married to Alerie (nee Hightower) so that would mean all the Tyrells, from Garlan to Wylas, Loras to Margery are at risk of presenting inherited madness.  And all the other families Hightowers have married into and the families that those children have married into.

The Targs are set up as at risk of inherited madness due to a long period of inbreeding.  Really they should have some physical or mental abnormalities as certain of the later Habsburgs did rather than presenting as normal before flipping but that's the way GRRM went.  No other family has any inherited madness in story.

I get you are pointing out connections and language references as curiosities but that's all this is.

I’m not so sure that the Whents inherited Harrenhal.  I think the Whents helped defeat the Lothstons and basically won the right to Harrenhal.  So perhaps it’s like an analogous situation with what happened to House Durrandon.  Orys Baratheon conquered it and basically “won” the right to the hand of the last remaining female Durrandon.  

Regardless, yes I agree it’s all merely a wisp of an idea, and I don’t think GRRM had fleshed out Cat’s maternal line enough to be able to come to this conclusion.

But I would add, that there is one other interesting aspect of the chapter where we first meet Ser Wode, (aka madness) who is associated with the Harrenhal bat. At the same Inn where we first meet Wode, Cat is staying in the bell tower of the Inn.  I.e. the Inn’s “belfry”.  So Cat’s mother is a “bat” and Cat is currently staying in a belfry.  And she meets a knight associated with her mother’s house whose name means madness.  Heh.

 

[the trees have eyes]

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

They had five minutes of conversation, she appeared compromised. Hence the reason she was forced to choose sword or die with her companions. This is not how Catelyn behaves pre-resurrection, however it is post. The darkness that Cats experienced compounded with Briennes possible guilt is character growth, commonly referred to as an arc. 
I feel like we're going in circles here.

You think? 

Five minutes of conversation where Brienne was injured, off-balance and unprepared.  She thinks it's so obvious that she was doing what she promised to do that it's pointless explaining any more because she has been led to believe it's a foregone conclusion she is going to be hanged.  The only surprise is that the leader of this band, known variously as The Silent Sister, Mother Merciless, The Hangwoman or Lady Stoneheart is actually her liege Lady and the charges, that she abandoned her duty, rather than that she's a filthy Lannister who has been pillaging The Riverlands.  Neither's true but she is taken aback and doesn't really know how to respond.

It's an arc alright, I said so up thread, but it's not character growth.

And the whole point of justice is to establish guilt or lack of it, not hang people out of suspicion or anger.

[Hugorfonics]

3 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

4 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

 

You think? 

Switch it up?

4 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

It's an arc alright, I said so up thread, but it's not character growth.

Whatever semantic you want.

What do you make of this?

Quote

“The skin from the little finger of Theon Greyjoy’s left hand. My son is cruel, I confess it. And yet . . . what is a little skin, against the lives of two young princes? You were their mother, my lady. May I offer you this . . . small token of revenge?”

Part of Catelyn wanted to clutch the grisly trophy to her heart, but she made herself resist. “Put it away. Please.”

Specifically, what would agot Cat want and do what would acok, and what would Stoneheart?

My thinking is Stoneheart would like eat it, like a cross between arya and goldmember. But early Cat, once she lost Ned if you gave her Cerseis skin she'd like call the cops. I think acok when she sent Brienne out and ended a book with Jaime about to get murdered wouldnt want Theons skin then. Just like Snow becoming heir and Sansa married off pushed her to further psychotic darkness.

Do you think this skin bit is a reflection of her arc?

[the trees have eyes]

10 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Just like Snow becoming heir and Sansa married off pushed her to further psychotic darkness.

Do you think this skin bit is a reflection of her arc?

First, I don't see her despair at Sansa's forced marriage or her opposition to Jon being promoted above her own children in the line of succession as pushing her to darkness, let alone psychotic darkness, let alone further psychotic darkness. 

I do believe she hated the man who she believed murdered her two young children, one already crippled, yes.  She also rejects the "token" in revulsion.

It's hard to have a conversation when the other person resorts to exaggeration and hyperbole, enjoys contrarian and absurd statements (the reader not knowing Brienne was trying to fulfil her oath, those dying in performing their duty being guilty of abandoning their duty because of "failure", etc).  You make some good observations and some serious points but they tend to get lost in the noise and it's hard to know what you really believe and want to say rather than being droll or just saying stuff to stir things up and see what falls out.

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

It's hard to have a conversation when the other person resorts to exaggeration and hyperbole, enjoys contrarian and absurd statements (the reader not knowing Brienne was trying to fulfil her oath, those dying in performing their duty being guilty of abandoning their duty because of "failure", etc).  You make some good observations and some serious points but they tend to get lost in the noise and it's hard to know what you really believe and want to say rather than being droll or just saying stuff to stir things up and see what falls out.

So, if I appear contrarian it's not for that effect, I don't want to go against the herd because I think I'm so cool or whatever, these are just my opinions. (Sometimes they do change and stuff)

As far as the exaggeration hyperbolic absurd statements, yea, guilty as charged. I think it's fun to be silly and I don't wanna spend the day devoid of humor. I truly am not just trying to get people riled up, and if you thought I was I'm sorry. I'm just droll. I do particularly enjoy our conversations.

(I never really doubted Brienne thinking she's doing her oath, I just think she's potentially compromised, in way over her head and kinda in an impossible "too many oaths" situation.

Also you kinda pressed me into making a yes or no answer, and I said it was unfair and fucked up but imo if someone says I'ma do this and they don't, that means they failed.)

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

her opposition to Jon being promoted above her own children in the line of succession as pushing her to darkness, let alone psychotic darkness, let alone further psychotic darkness

Psychotic darkness was definitely an exaggeration lol. Sorry, I'll try to do better when talking to you 

But like after she compared Jon to Theon, Robb (rightly) cut her out of his life (hyperboles still working, sry. This is hard...), she was really alone at that moment. Not losing her final kid like that, but kinda.

Sansa as well, she seemed really taken back. Like despite everything she placed all her trust in Lannister words and when news came of Sansa; Again, choose your semantic but something was chipped away from her stone heart. (Again I'm really sorry lol, but this is the only way I know how to talk)

[the trees have eyes]

18 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

As far as the exaggeration hyperbolic absurd statements, yea, guilty as charged. I think it's fun to be silly and I don't wanna spend the day devoid of humor. I truly am not just trying to get people riled up, and if you thought I was I'm sorry. I'm just droll. I do particularly enjoy our conversations.

I meant stir things up as in shake things up to get people thinking, often by being provocative  to challenge their views or assumptions (not bad in itself, depending in how far it goes) not to get people riled up so my bad in miscommunicating and no need to apologise.  I understand it's your style and it's usually engaging even if I often completely disagree which is why I debate you but it is often hard to know what you genuinely want to make as a point or are merely saying for effect.

19 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Psychotic darkness was definitely an exaggeration lol. Sorry, I'll try to do better when talking to you 

But like after she compared Jon to Theon, Robb (rightly) cut her out of his life (hyperboles still working, sry. This is hard...), she was really alone at that moment. Not losing her final kid like that, but kinda.

Sansa as well, she seemed really taken back. Like despite everything she placed all her trust in Lannister words and when news came of Sansa

This is clear  but as with so much, it's where we disagree.  Catelyn in ACOK and ASOS is someone who becomes deeply unhappy, worn down by grief, worry and despair.  She has become depressed and notes that people avoid her as she has become poor company (and, well, she did release the Kingslayer so she is practically persona non grata), understandable enough, but she is eking out an existence rather than living a life and is a hollowed out version of herself.  Grief and worry do that but they don't turn her into a psycho.

When Robb writes Sansa out of his will it is as if he is giving her up for dead, a further hammer blow when she is still trying to process that her daughters are not going to be returned to her safe and well. She tries to dissuade him and above all to keep her own children in the line of succession not have them supplanted by a bastard.  He didn't listen to her about Theon so she makes damned sure he hears her objection over legitimising Jon because this cannot be undone.  She's right about the potential consequences even though she misunderstands Jon's character but we have Ramsay and Domeric to illustrate the worst case and Stannis later wooing Jon to show what she fears.

In any case Robb does not "abandon" her because of her "darkness".  He does what most young men do, which is shake off the apron strings.  He rode south as a boy, son and heir of Lord Eddard Stark, with his mother as his chief counsellor, but he's now King of The North and Riverlands and he doesn't want her interfering.  The main reason he plans to send her to Seaguard is that interference, most notably releasing the Kingslayer, that most of his Lords see as a huge strategic blunder that will cost hundreds, if not thousands, of lives in battle.  How many other wives and mothers are with the Army?

19 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Again, choose your semantic but something was chipped away from her stone heart. (Again I'm really sorry lol, but this is the only way I know how to talk)

Eh.  You would be better to say something caused her heart to harden further or part of her beating heart to harden and turn to stone.  After all, she doesn't start as Lady Stoneheart / Mother Merciless / The Hangwoman.  She needs an epic Greek tragedy, an awful death consumed by madness and two days dead in the river before resuscitation in a decaying body to become this corruption of herself.  Not just some bad news.

[Hugorfonics]

7 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I meant stir things up as in shake things up to get people thinking, often by being provocative  to challenge their views or assumptions (not bad in itself, depending in how far it goes) not to get people riled up so my bad in miscommunicating and no need to apologise.  I understand it's your style and it's usually engaging even if I often completely disagree which is why I debate you but it is often hard to know what you genuinely want to make as a point or are merely saying for effect.

Ok, cool.

I think everything I say is for point. (Like comparing her to a headless chicken is a popular metaphor, although I suppose saying it's making it's most reasonable decision with the info available was just a joke. Or like saying Robb cut her out of his life was a point but Cats stone heart being chipped away was a joke. But I feel like your figuring it out)

7 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Eh.  You would be better to say something caused her heart to harden further or part of her beating heart to harden and turn to stone.  After all, she doesn't start as Lady Stoneheart / Mother Merciless / The Hangwoman.  She needs an epic Greek tragedy, an awful death consumed by madness and two days dead in the river before resuscitation in a decaying body to become this corruption of herself.  Not just some bad news.

7 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

This is clear  but as with so much, it's where we disagree.  Catelyn in ACOK and ASOS is someone who becomes deeply unhappy, worn down by grief, worry and despair.  She has become depressed and notes that people avoid her as she has become poor company (and, well, she did release the Kingslayer so she is practically persona non grata), understandable enough, but she is eking out an existence rather than living a life and is a hollowed out version of herself.  Grief and worry do that but they don't turn her into a psycho.

(Yea but it's not as poetic, I like the imagery of the chipping)

She's definitely feeling lost. Cat was always too strong for herself, a born leader and such but her purpose has continued to slip away. And the loss of Ned, the little boys, the Sansa vs Snow debacle and her influence slipping may have brought her to 100 mph, but definitely agreed the RW was overdrive.

She was a having a mental breakdown at the time do her murder, totally. I think there's a good chance that in between lives, or just regular time passing for a regular person who had a mental breakdown, the debacle may have taken a chunk of her mental health. I however would not go so far to say she's a psycho or madness or whatever. Stoneheart for example does not constantly appear scrapping apart her face. 

7 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

When Robb writes Sansa out of his will it is as if he is giving her up for dead, a further hammer blow when she is still trying to process that her daughters are not going to be returned to her safe and well. She tries to dissuade him and above all to keep her own children in the line of succession not have them supplanted by a bastard.  He didn't listen to her about Theon so she makes damned sure he hears her objection over legitimising Jon because this cannot be undone.  She's right about the potential consequences even though she misunderstands Jon's character but we have Ramsay and Domeric to illustrate the worst case and Stannis later wooing Jon to show what she fears.

Robb gave Arya up for dead. He was very aware of Sansa living and continuing to live to the glory of his soon to be nephew Lannister. I'm not sure if Cat gave Arya up for dead or if she'd truly prefer Tyrions lineage to Jon's, or maybe she just wants to avoid further wars. But definitely not a good look for her scheme involving Brienne, it looks like even if she succeeds Sansa will still have to fight.

And I don't believe anything has changed, Sansa imo will liberate her parents lands, avenge the Young Wolf and finish his war, but he definitely didn't make it easy for her.

7 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

In any case Robb does not "abandon" her because of her "darkness".  He does what most young men do, which is shake off the apron strings.  He rode south as a boy, son and heir of Lord Eddard Stark, with his mother as his chief counsellor, but he's now King of The North and Riverlands and he doesn't want her interfering.  The main reason he plans to send her to Seaguard is that interference, most notably releasing the Kingslayer, that most of his Lords see as a huge strategic blunder that will cost hundreds, if not thousands, of lives in battle.  How many other wives and mothers are with the Army?

Which I believe is the reason, however as Cat notes if she was more accommodating and less scolding there's a decent chance he would have valued her input and advice like he used to.

[The Gizzard of Oz]

On 1/15/2023 at 8:47 PM, Sydney Mae said:

The Tully sisters went mad.  Catelyn Tully-Stark and Lysa Tully-Arryn were showing signs of madness and emotional fragility.  Lysa had it from her youth to her death.  Catelyn lost it at the wedding.  She cut Aegon Frey's throat and killed him.  Catelyn went mad that minute.  There is insanity in the Tully blood.  Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon are half Tully.  Cat's brood inherited the gene predisposing them to insanity.  I know stress can trigger the disease.   

Definitely gives a wide open door in the plot for Catelyn's children to also go insane.  I think Arya is part of the way on that trip. 

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

3 minutes ago, The Gizzard of Oz said:

Definitely gives a wide open door in the plot for Catelyn's children to also go insane.  I think Arya is part of the way on that trip. 

[Craving Peaches]

3 hours ago, The Gizzard of Oz said:

Definitely gives a wide open door in the plot for Catelyn's children to also go insane.  I think Arya is part of the way on that trip. 

Are you serious?

[sweetsunray]

On 2/22/2023 at 9:45 PM, Many-Faced Votary said:

No, because their scars aren't indicative of the culmination of their trauma in the final moments of their lives. This isn't an "outer appearance reflects inner appearance in people" argument; it's a "the undead version of a fundamentally good person is hideous inside and out" argument.

I find myself siding with @Hugorfonics a lot when it comes to LS. If Catlyn hadn't died but managed to escape and become the leader of the BwB, I don't think she would be acting all that different than she does as LS. It's just that death removed all self-doubt on having others doing the judgment. It gave her absolute independence. And who she was and her emotions are now magnified.

On this particular argument about Brienne's scars by Biter not having any symbolic meaning I disagree. Once, Brienne arrives at Maidenpool and is joined by Meribald, George has grafted a lot of references to Dante's journey into hell with Vergilius by his side. Every step of the journey is another circle of hell. At the Crossroads Inn, Brienne arrives at the 9th circle, where the devil resides, and no the devil is not LS. In Dante's poem, the devil or beast is described as being locked in a lake of ice and he has three heads that eat the worst of the sinners: kingslayers, kinslayers, guestright breakers and oathbreakers (to their sovereign). Biter and Rorge with the Hound's helm represent the beast punishing the likes of Brutus and Judas Escariot. So, symbolically, Brienne carries the mark of the beast, because she is officially on Tommen's business as well as Jaime's who has forced house Tully to surrender their castle to guest right breakers and kingslayers and threatened to throw Edmure Tully's unborn child with a trebuchet - because she is an oathbreaker to the woman she voluntarily swore an oath of fealty. Tarly's judgments at Maidenpool show Brienne and the reader that she is entering a world of judgment of "no buts" and "no mercy".

Knowing both their minds, experiences and conflicting demands, we readers recognize that both Jaime and Brienne are trying to navigate it all as best as they can while remaining true to their vows to Cat. But strictly speaking it can be argued they broke their vows, in the eyes of any judge who cannot read their minds and how many balls they have to juggle in the air.

But no, I do not agree that only LS's physical state serves symbolic sign to the reader. Brienne's cheek being eaten is just as much a symbolic sign of judgment by hell, and then afterwards by Hel (LS's markings and physical state and hanging methods match that of the Norse Hel)

[GZ Bloodraven]

On 1/15/2023 at 5:47 PM, Sydney Mae said:

The Tully sisters went mad.  Catelyn Tully-Stark and Lysa Tully-Arryn were showing signs of madness and emotional fragility.  Lysa had it from her youth to her death.  Catelyn lost it at the wedding.  She cut Aegon Frey's throat and killed him.  Catelyn went mad that minute.  There is insanity in the Tully blood.  Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon are half Tully.  Cat's brood inherited the gene predisposing them to insanity.  I know stress can trigger the disease.   

This is reductive as hell. Unlike the Targaryens, who have been interbreeding for generations, the Tullys (Edmyn, Prentys, the Muppets, Hoster) have no demonstrated madness. Lysa only went mad after her dad almost killed her with moon tea, she hurriedly married Jon Arryn because he needed kids ASAP, she tried and failed to have seven kids, Littlefinger manipulated her massively, and she had no joy no love no prospects and no purpose. Catelyn went mad for like one second because The Red Wedding was happening and she had like two cards to play. 

13 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I find myself siding with @Hugorfonics a lot when it comes to LS. If Catlyn hadn't died but managed to escape and become the leader of the BwB, I don't think she would be acting all that different than she does as LS. It's just that death removed all self-doubt on having others doing the judgment. It gave her absolute independence. And who she was and her emotions are now magnified.

 

I think she would be different: she'd be more focused on making sure her other kids are safe. As is, she has nothing left to live for; she would probably rather be dead, but as long as she's here, she can get revenge. 

[sweetsunray]

6 minutes ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

she'd be more focused on making sure her other kids are safe.

She has been searching for Arya and have guards to watch the orphanage set-up (owned by a BwB member) to which septons or sparrows take children that are without parents and Gendry to check whether Arya is one of them.

She prevents people in the service of King Tommen from looking any further for Sansa. And for all we know she did send people in search of Sansa, people who don't moan Jaime's name (Jaime whose regards were passed on during the RW). It's not as if she's gonna tell Brienne this, would she?

Edited March 20, 2023 by sweetsunray

[GZ Bloodraven]

4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

She has been searching for Arya and have guards to watch the orphanage set-up (owned by a BwB member) to which septons or sparrows take children that are without parents and Gendry to check whether Arya is one of them.

She prevents people in the service of King Tommen from looking any further for Sansa. And for all we know she did send people in search of Sansa, people who don't moan Jaime's name (Jaime whose regards were passed on during the RW). It's not as if she's gonna tell Brienne this, would she?

She's still searching for her other kids, no doubt, but it seems like her priority is revenge, whereas idk if that would be the case had she lived through the Red Wedding. Maybe it would be: maybe she'd still focus on getting revenge by sending Brienne on an errand to get Jaime over getting Arya from Winterfell or fixing her relationship with Jon (probably not). 

[sweetsunray]

Just now, GZ Bloodraven said:

She's still searching for her other kids, no doubt, but it seems like her priority is revenge, whereas idk if that would be the case had she lived through the Red Wedding. Maybe it would be: maybe she'd still focus on getting revenge by sending Brienne on an errand to get Jaime over getting Arya from Winterfell or fixing her relationship with Jon (probably not). 

It seems like her priority to you, because you're giving way too much credence to a priest who's upset his friend Beric gave up his life for her and romantices his time with the BwB as "the good old days".

It's not just revenge, but harsh justice. She has the BwB purge all the broken men and outlaws who sacked Saltpans, which is RW unrelated, because obviously the Lord of Saltpans is a coward still hiding behind his walls, the Freys are more interested in greedily taking castles, Tarly's too busy arranging a marriage for his son in Maidenpool and Lancel is starving himself in a sept of Darry. Without LS' BwB there would be no justice at all.

LS knows Arya's not at Winterfell! She knows the whole story of Arya's travels: with Gendry from KL until the BwB, with the BwB and how the Hound took her, that the Hound was tracked by the BwB going for the Twins, how the Freys never noticed either the Hound or Arya, how she escaped with Gendry from Harrenhal and Roose never realized his cupbearer was Arya, and from the Heddles she knows that the Hound and Arya fought and killed men of the Mountain. She knows the Hound and Arya were on their way to Saltpans.

So, she knows that Roose's and Lannister claim that Arya was found is complete BS, because Arya couldn't be in two places at the same time. LS journeyed into the Neck before Roose woudl pass with his army and the fake Arya, and one of the things she must have relayed as info is that the Arya with him isn't the real Arya. She has no reason whatsoever to spend resources on a fake Arya, knowing she's fake. And if she were to send people in search or protection of Arya or Sansa, she'd use BwB and Reeds before a woman who did not rescue Sansa from her marriage to Tyrion while at KL, who's on King Tommen's business and moans after Jaime like a mooncalf. 

[Nevets]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

It seems like her priority to you, because you're giving way too much credence to a priest who's upset his friend Beric gave up his life for her and romantices his time with the BwB as "the good old days".

It's not just revenge, but harsh justice. She has the BwB purge all the broken men and outlaws who sacked Saltpans, which is RW unrelated, because obviously the Lord of Saltpans is a coward still hiding behind his walls, the Freys are more interested in greedily taking castles, Tarly's too busy arranging a marriage for his son in Maidenpool and Lancel is starving himself in a sept of Darry. Without LS' BwB there would be no justice at all.

LS knows Arya's not at Winterfell! She knows the whole story of Arya's travels: with Gendry from KL until the BwB, with the BwB and how the Hound took her, that the Hound was tracked by the BwB going for the Twins, how the Freys never noticed either the Hound or Arya, how she escaped with Gendry from Harrenhal and Roose never realized his cupbearer was Arya, and from the Heddles she knows that the Hound and Arya fought and killed men of the Mountain. She knows the Hound and Arya were on their way to Saltpans.

So, she knows that Roose's and Lannister claim that Arya was found is complete BS, because Arya couldn't be in two places at the same time. LS journeyed into the Neck before Roose woudl pass with his army and the fake Arya, and one of the things she must have relayed as info is that the Arya with him isn't the real Arya. She has no reason whatsoever to spend resources on a fake Arya, knowing she's fake. And if she were to send people in search or protection of Arya or Sansa, she'd use BwB and Reeds before a woman who did not rescue Sansa from her marriage to Tyrion while at KL, who's on King Tommen's business and moans after Jaime like a mooncalf. 

LS was at Oldstones probably because of its proximity to the Twins.  At that point they had no idea what had happened to Arya.  For all they knew, Sandor had turned around and sold Arya to the Lannisters or their allies. At that point, they knew nothing.  Given the timing, I doubt they knew about the Boltons transporting Arya (real or fake) north. 

Obviously, by the time Brienne runs into them, they know more, but the trail has still gone cold.  I think Gendry is at the inn in case she shows up, but it doesn't look like they are actively searching for her otherwise.  As for Sansa, they would have the same problem Brienne had: nothing to go on.

While the BwB is tracking down outlaws and broken men, they are also targeting Frey and Lannister men.  They've killed Tarly men and vice versa. The only reason Podrick and Ser Hyle were selected for hanging was because of their Lannister affiliation. You forgot to mention Hasty's holy hundred at Harrenhal.  I doubt they're simply doing nothing.

By the way, Brienne wasn't in KL when Sansa was there so couldn't have done anything anyway.  Though I do agree that LS has ample reason to distrust her, given her parchment and admitted connection to Jaime.

By the way, if it turns out Roose Bolton knew or suspected who Arya really was, I would not be entirely surprised.  There are hints to that possibility, though I think GRRM is keeping his options open on that.

[GZ Bloodraven]

5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

It seems like her priority to you, because you're giving way too much credence to a priest who's upset his friend Beric gave up his life for her and romantices his time with the BwB as "the good old days".

 

I think Thoros is completely right when he says that Stoneheart is pursuing revenge. And it's totally justified, I'm not downplaying that, it is justice no doubt, I just think a not undead Catelyn would be making the same moves that Stoneheart is making. And I'm not sure if Stoneheart knows that the Arya is a fake Arya: either way, she's obviously dead set on a totally justified revenge.

[sweetsunray]

5 hours ago, Nevets said:

At that point they had no idea what had happened to Arya.  For all they knew, Sandor had turned around and sold Arya to the Lannisters or their allies. At that point, they knew nothing. 

At that point they knew Arya wasn't seen or taken at the Twins, the Heddles chased out whores who told tales out of the Inn, and other cells of BwB were still hanging either mummers or Lannister soldiers.

5 hours ago, Nevets said:

While the BwB is tracking down outlaws and broken men, they are also targeting Frey and Lannister men.

Never said otherwise. But the Saltpans outlaws are neither, which was my point. Those outlaws even include broken men of the North.

5 hours ago, Nevets said:

You forgot to mention Hasty's holy hundred at Harrenhal.  I doubt they're simply doing nothing.

I did. Hasty manages to set up camp in HH mid aFfC and cleared out HH from Mountain men (none which are hanged) who have to seek jobs elsewhere. Basically, Hasty still needs to get to work

5 hours ago, Nevets said:

By the way, Brienne wasn't in KL when Sansa was there so couldn't have done anything anyway. 

. True, but this is something LS cannot know. She knows Brienne and Jaime met with Roose and that he sent his regards, and thus that would be from HH. From HH she would expect Brienne and Jaime to arrive at KL swiftly. 

5 hours ago, Nevets said:

Given the timing, I doubt they knew about the Boltons transporting Arya (real or fake) north. 

Jaime learns about the "lost and found Arya" from Roose at HH. So, yes, the lie that Arya had been found by Lannisters was already in the Riverlands. Roose also doesn't try to keep that info much of a secret.

[Hugorfonics]

@sweetsunray

I'm not sure if the faith and andalism is in itself detrimental.

That they're taking over is without a doubt, Ned builds the Sept presumably to get his wife to stop saying the word "Ashara" out loud, his father I guess didn't forsee the dilemma of andalism because of his southron ambitions, but I agree the Septons are not there to play ball. After all, we hear stories of Greyjoy acting the ref, "your outta here!" 

But I'm not sure it's much of an improvement. Just because Andalism is wrong doesn't necessarily make Ironbornism right.

Or First Menism, if the Andals brought writing instead of getting a magician who can speak chirp on Mother's Day, then that's definitely a good thing. What we truly do know of the First Men is that they were feudal as fuck, for all extensive purposes, history begins with the builder of Winterfell, so that's not necessarily chill. Did Andals appropriate them with the constructs of fortresses like Twins and Harbor, sure but they're kinda cool looking too. Less magical then Stormsend but just as good as keeping the average smallfolk out (or just as useless at keeping smugglers out)

And if knights truly were an appropriation too, as I think they were too, then the boujee attitude and non stop misogynism that are synonymous with knights may be an andalized thing, but they were always murderers. And if, like I also like thinking, that knights were directly influenced by the NW well that's not great either as the Knights Watch is possibly the most deprived, foolish and heinous orders I've ever read about.

 

Although we are definitely encouraged to root for First Men. The story opens with Bran after all and despite the politics of Sansa, the wars of Dany and a song of Jon and Snow, we all know who the real main character is. And despite the wanton red flags, the main character remains the hero. 

But likewise we see the political backdoor dealings, lies and deceit, torture and chauvinism that the High Sparrow spews, but he's still kinda good, right? Or at least his knights, Lancel. That weak piece of nothing, but, maybe the cause will be good for him? And while I agree the 7 leave much to be desired, they're still a better master then Joff

 

Eta. Lol wrong thread

 

Edited March 22, 2023 by Hugorfonics

[Sydney Mae]

On 3/19/2023 at 11:34 PM, The Gizzard of Oz said:

Definitely gives a wide open door in the plot for Catelyn's children to also go insane.  I think Arya is part of the way on that trip. 

It isn't really surprising.  We saw Catelyn lose her mind early on.  Take this chapter from the first book.  It happened after the assassin tried to kill her crippled boy.  The wolf saved Catelyn.  The wolf licks the blood from Catelyn.

Quote

"When it (the wolf) had cleaned all the blood off her hand, it turned away silently and jumped up on Bran's bed and lay down beside him.  Catelyn began to laugh hysterically"

The men found her laughing. 

Two sisters going crazy.  It puts their children in danger of losing it as well.  Arya will experience mind-breaking stress after she hears what happened to Jon at the wall.  She will go on a murderous rage.  It's the final straw as Arya tries to hang on to her sanity as well as her humanity.