Tully Madness

[YeniAy_Ottoman]

15 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think you’ve joined recently, so here’s a quick heads up: there’s no such thing as “Tully madness” in the novels. However, there is a small and very loud group of “readers” who hate, hate, hate anything Stark and they keep coming up w/ dumb af threads that are nothing more than thinly veiled hate threads. 
When these idiotic threads get bumped to page 2 or 3, they’re quickly resurrected or a new one is created to replace it. Tully madness, Jon is going crazy, Bran is the villain (Jon is also the villain), etc etc etc ad nauseam. 
On the other hand, Ramsay is awesome, Walder Frey is the most honourable man ever, and Janos Slynt is a truly heroic hero. It’s mind-boggling but that’s where we are

Forum? As you may notice I signed up here years ago but I can't claim to spend much time here, I'm more on reddit.

ASOIAF? I have been reading, reviewing and theorizing books for many years, I also started a youtube channel a few years ago. So no, I am not new.

I am aware that there is no such thing as Tully madness like Targ in the books, I actually identified and developed this idea myself years ago, independently of this place. Seems someone else noticed it and brought it up for discussion. This has nothing to do with Stark hatred. The Tully family are not Starks and I am a Stark fan. 

You may have had some experiences in the past, I have too... but in the end it would be healthier to try not to generalize them to everything.

To repeat myself, what I call Tully madness is not a Targ-like prevalence; it's a fate that the author prefers to portray the last generation of Tully women in the text rather than a family transmission. The example of Lysa and Cat leads us to this inference, and from Sansa's strange memory mistakes etc. starting with Mycah in the first book, to GRRM's explanations... it leads us to infer that she may have touched it. It may not be true, after all we are here to discuss ideas, but please don't accuse people with so-called arguments like "you think this because you hate this family and person" or "because you love them". This is a wrong way of reasoning. It also kills all the fun of the discussion.

[Craving Peaches]

Labelling it 'Tully Madness' to liken it to 'Targaryen Madness' is misleading, because the 'madness' of the Tullys has nothing to do with them being Tullys, but is caused by external factors. Meanwhile the Targaryens are just mad sometimes with no external cause. Sansa and co. are not going to go mad just because Catelyn and Lysa went mad, because the reasons for them going mad have nothing to do with genetics or any heritable traits, but due to the stresses they were exposed to.

[kissdbyfire]

10 hours ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

Forum? As you may notice I signed up here years ago but I can't claim to spend much time here, I'm more on reddit.

ASOIAF? I have been reading, reviewing and theorizing books for many years, I also started a youtube channel a few years ago. So no, I am not new.

Good for you I suppose? I said what I said based solely on you not having posted a lot and the 769 new threads, which is something new members tend to do. It was not meant to be offensive, so apologies if it came across like that.

10 hours ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

I am aware that there is no such thing as Tully madness like Targ in the books, I actually identified and developed this idea myself years ago, independently of this place. Seems someone else noticed it and brought it up for discussion. This has nothing to do with Stark hatred. The Tully family are not Starks and I am a Stark fan. 
 

I very much doubt the thread was started based on serious theories posted elsewhere b/c we’ve had a shit ton of madness threads all involving the Stark kids who are half Tullys apart from Jon. They simply ran out of Starks for madness threads so moved onto the Tullys. 
 

10 hours ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

You may have had some experiences in the past, I have too... but in the end it would be healthier to try not to generalize them to everything.

Slight eyeroll here, but benefit of the doubt and all that. I think you may have misunderstood what my reply meant and the fact that what it was addressing had absolutely nothing to do w/ your theory or anything you said. It was only a warning about trying to have a meaningful discussion w/ people who are acting in bad faith. 

10 hours ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

To repeat myself, what I call Tully madness is not a Targ-like prevalence; it's a fate that the author prefers to portray the last generation of Tully women in the text rather than a family transmission. The example of Lysa and Cat leads us to this inference, and from Sansa's strange memory mistakes etc. starting with Mycah in the first book, to GRRM's explanations... it leads us to infer that she may have touched it. It may not be true, after all we are here to discuss ideas, but please don't accuse people with so-called arguments like "you think this because you hate this family and person" or "because you love them". This is a wrong way of reasoning. It also kills all the fun of the discussion.

What @Craving Peaches said. 

Edited May 23 by kissdbyfire

[Nevets]

11 hours ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

Forum? As you may notice I signed up here years ago but I can't claim to spend much time here, I'm more on reddit.

ASOIAF? I have been reading, reviewing and theorizing books for many years, I also started a youtube channel a few years ago. So no, I am not new.

I am aware that there is no such thing as Tully madness like Targ in the books, I actually identified and developed this idea myself years ago, independently of this place. Seems someone else noticed it and brought it up for discussion. This has nothing to do with Stark hatred. The Tully family are not Starks and I am a Stark fan. 

You may have had some experiences in the past, I have too... but in the end it would be healthier to try not to generalize them to everything.

To repeat myself, what I call Tully madness is not a Targ-like prevalence; it's a fate that the author prefers to portray the last generation of Tully women in the text rather than a family transmission. The example of Lysa and Cat leads us to this inference, and from Sansa's strange memory mistakes etc. starting with Mycah in the first book, to GRRM's explanations... it leads us to infer that she may have touched it. It may not be true, after all we are here to discuss ideas, but please don't accuse people with so-called arguments like "you think this because you hate this family and person" or "because you love them". This is a wrong way of reasoning. It also kills all the fun of the discussion.

Sansa has no real memory issues, or serious psychological concerns at all.  Her only memory error was the "unkiss" with Sandor.  Given that it was a frightening and confused event, with sexual overtones, experienced by a young adolescent, inaccurately remembering a kiss is hardly surprising.  She remembered the Mycah incident, she just didn't want to say so in public.

As for Arya, she has psychological issues, but they have nothing to do with her mother.  In fact, before she was forced on the run, she was a fairly normal nine-year-old.  A bit rambunctious, with unusual interests for a girl, but nothing too unusual.  In fact I suspect her upbringing by Catelyn and Eddard has kept her from being any worse than she is.

[Only 89 selfies today]

On 5/9/2023 at 10:08 PM, Darth Sidious said:

Environment helped to push Arya along. We can’t take that excuse away but what she inherited from the Tully half is a cause as well. 

What Arya inherited from the Tullys is Nature.  The genetic disorder making her prone to madness.  The environmental factors are the Nurture.  Ned's death, humiliation of her family, homelessness. Together they made Arya what she is now. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

7 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

What Arya inherited from the Tullys is Nature.  The genetic disorder making her prone to madness.  The environmental factors are the Nurture.  Ned's death, humiliation of her family, homelessness. Together they made Arya what she is now. 

Arya is more violent, more disturbed than Stoneheart and Lysa. Stoneheart has killed a lot but Arya will murder more before long. 

[Darth Sidious]

So Catelyn murdered Jinglebells Frey. She had more killed after coming back. I don’t have the kill count for Catelyn but I think Arya has already killed more. The nature v. nurture works to explain Arya but not wholly. A lot of kids suffered more and they don’t turn into killers.  

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

That nonsense is still going on ? 

My god.

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

27 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

That nonsense is still going on ? 

My god.

I thought I had seen the worst asoiaf takes on tumblr, but I recently shared with them some of the things I've seen on here and even they're dumbfounded by these "interpretations."

[Angel Eyes]

59 minutes ago, Darth Sidious said:

So Catelyn murdered Jinglebells Frey. She had more killed after coming back. I don’t have the kill count for Catelyn but I think Arya has already killed more. The nature v. nurture works to explain Arya but not wholly. A lot of kids suffered more and they don’t turn into killers.  

That tends to happen as a zombie, not to mention GRRM's dislike of resurrections where the person who comes back is mostly normal.

[kissdbyfire]

44 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

I thought I had seen the worst asoiaf takes on tumblr, but I recently shared with them some of the things I've seen on here and even they're dumbfounded by these "interpretations."

That is saying something!

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, Darth Sidious said:

I don’t have the kill count for Catelyn

Because it doesn't exist. Catelyn has killed two people, one of them in battle. That is it. Do you know who does have a sizable kill count though? Daenerys. She has killed more than all Jon, Arya, and Catelyn multiplied by each other.

Edited May 25 by Craving Peaches

[Angel Eyes]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

Because it doesn't exist. Catelyn has killed one person. That is it. Do you know who does have a sizable kill count though? Daenerys. She has killed more than all Jon, Arya, and Catelyn multiplied by each other.

Two. There was a Vale tribesman whose throat she slit in AGOT.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Angel Eyes said:

Two. There was a Vale tribesman whose throat she slit in AGOT.

Killing someone in battle isn't murder/manslaughter like Jinglebell though. But you are right. I will add it to the list.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

That nonsense is still going on ? 

My god.

It’s not  beating a dead horse, it’s killing a cute pony, beating its dead body for days, and then quartering it and dragging the limbs all across town. 

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

It’s not  beating a dead horse, it’s killing a cute pony, beating its dead body for days, and then quartering it and dragging the limbs all across town. 

All the while screaming "Jon Snow killed my pony!"

[Angel Eyes]

4 hours ago, Darth Sidious said:

So Catelyn murdered Jinglebells Frey. She had more killed after coming back. I don’t have the kill count for Catelyn but I think Arya has already killed more. The nature v. nurture works to explain Arya but not wholly. A lot of kids suffered more and they don’t turn into killers.  

And some kids suffer less and become killers. Look at Joffrey or Aerys the Mad.

[Ser Leftwich]

On 5/22/2023 at 12:16 PM, kissdbyfire said:

I think you’ve joined recently, so here’s a quick heads up: there’s no such thing as “Tully madness” in the novels. However, there is a small and very loud group of “readers” who hate, hate, hate anything Stark and they keep coming up w/ dumb af threads that are nothing more than thinly veiled hate threads. 
When these idiotic threads get bumped to page 2 or 3, they’re quickly resurrected or a new one is created to replace it. Tully madness, Jon is going crazy, Bran is the villain (Jon is also the villain), etc etc etc ad nauseam. 
On the other hand, Ramsay is awesome, Walder Frey is the most honourable man ever, and Janos Slynt is a truly heroic hero. It’s mind-boggling but that’s where we are.

This is the best response to this OP. (Who promptly stopped responding at all after 1-2 reactions to the theory.)

While one can theorize about why Lysa and Cat ended the way they did, that is about literary analysis of characters, not Tully 'genetics.' Compare it to the "Targs madness/greatness" that we have near endless information about the Targ family 'genetics' as well as several if not a dozen literary examples of the 'flip of the coin' idea expressed by characters. And remember, who is mad or great is often a label attached to a Targ after the fact.

This specific theory is just nonsense "hate at XXXX characters" and is not based on the arc of the story. Click bait.

 

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, LongRider said:

All the while screaming "Jon Snow killed my pony!"

Exactly! In a similar tone as Elaine’s faux Aussie accent screaming, “maybe the dingo ate your baby!”

[Darth Sidious]

On 5/25/2023 at 2:25 PM, Angel Eyes said:

And some kids suffer less and become killers. Look at Joffrey or Aerys the Mad.

Sure, but that doesn’t change the fact that Arya is crazy.