The Last of Us (HBO Spoilers)

[Macklunkey]

The only information that Joel can go off is what he gets from Ellie. It's clearer in the game when she is clear in her conversations that she in no way expects death. She asks Joel to teach her guitar,( reversed in the show a bit), she says that they'll go and live wherever he wants after and I think she also mentions about him teaching her to swim after and hearing him sing. 

Then it's quite obviously explained to him that Ellie doesn't know the operation will kill her. 

[Ran]

19 hours ago, Nictarion said:

Ashley Johnson as Ellie’s mom was a nice touch. 

Randomly wanted to remark on this, as it's not  been noted much. Ellie's mom was played by the voice actress for Ellie in the games, for those who did not know. What I found remarkable is that they made Johnson up in such a way where she felt very plausible as Bella Ramsey's mother, almost to the point where I wondered if they cast Ramsey in part because of a perceived similarity.

Anyways, was a great nod to the game to get the voice actors in there where they could.

[sifth]

20 minutes ago, Ran said:

Randomly wanted to remark on this, as it's not  been noted much. Ellie's mom was played by the voice actress for Ellie in the games, for those who did not know. What I found remarkable is that they made Johnson up in such a way where she felt very plausible as Bella Ramsey's mother, almost to the point where I wondered if they cast Ramsey in part because of a perceived similarity.

Anyways, was a great nod to the game to get the voice actors in there where they could.

Laura Bailey has a small cameo as well; playing one of the doctors assistants. She voices Abby in the Last of Us Part II. A rather fitting place to put that cameo, given Abby's story arc in the sequel.

[Werthead]

Interesting, in case they decide to cast Laura Bailey as Abby in Season 2 (they're physically quite different, but they could perhaps change that).

Spoiler

Abby is the daughter of the surgeon Joel beats to death, though in the game she does not witness the event personally (I believe). In the show having her witness the event first-hand is greater motivation for her hatred of Joel, explaining better how she would even recognise Joel in the first place.

Of course, I'm not sure the ages work for that (Bailey is 41, and the actor playing the surgeon doesn't look much older than that). And, much more likely, it's a nod to the fact that Bailey had a small vocal role in LoU1 playing the exact same nurse

Bailey and Ashley Johnson are also both members of the Critical Role posse, and are voicing lead characters on The Legend of Vox Machina (Vex and Pike respectively).

[sifth]

24 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Interesting, in case they decide to cast Laura Bailey as Abby in Season 2 (they're physically quite different, but they could perhaps change that).

  Reveal hidden contents

Abby is the daughter of the surgeon Joel beats to death, though in the game she does not witness the event personally (I believe). In the show having her witness the event first-hand is greater motivation for her hatred of Joel, explaining better how she would even recognise Joel in the first place.

Of course, I'm not sure the ages work for that (Bailey is 41, and the actor playing the surgeon doesn't look much older than that). And, much more likely, it's a nod to the fact that Bailey had a small vocal role in LoU1 playing the exact same nurse

Bailey and Ashley Johnson are also both members of the Critical Role posse, and are voicing lead characters on The Legend of Vox Machina (Vex and Pike respectively).

They didn't cast her as Abby. She just has a cameo as one of the doctors assistance. At this point in time, Abby is still a teenager.

[Clueless Northman]

Honestly, the whole "Let's just kill the only known person immune to infection because bogus cure reasons" never made any sense to me. They might have seen that the fungus attacks the brain, but what led them to believe that it actually went that far with Ellie? They're going to kill their only research subject based on a ridiculous wild guess that doesn't make any medical sense?

 

Overall, really good series, imho, with some powerful moments (episodes 3 and 5 have already been praised here around, obviously). Not sure how good they can make season 2 if they follow the game; some plot decisions might not go well.

[Ran]

Apparently, Craig Mazin has said that The Last of Us 2 will take more than one season to adapt, so it looks like they're planning to do two years to cover that game.

[sifth]

Did it bother anyone else that the doctor was clearly not performing the operation in a clean room? Last I heard, vaccines can only be created in a clean room. Not that I'd expect Naughty Dog to know the science behind this or anything. Also how the heck would they mass produce something like that, in a broken world?

[Mexal]

9 minutes ago, Ran said:

Apparently, Craig Mazin has said that The Last of Us 2 will take more than one season to adapt, so it looks like they're planning to do two years to cover that game.

Think this is the right call. There is a lot there and one season wouldn't work. This will allow them to flesh it out and fix some of the narrative issues I had with the game.

[Underfoot]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Randomly wanted to remark on this, as it's not  been noted much. Ellie's mom was played by the voice actress for Ellie in the games, for those who did not know. What I found remarkable is that they made Johnson up in such a way where she felt very plausible as Bella Ramsey's mother, almost to the point where I wondered if they cast Ramsey in part because of a perceived similarity.

Anyways, was a great nod to the game to get the voice actors in there where they could.

as someone who has watched thousands of hours of critical role content, I was shocked by how much Bella Ramsey looks like and has similar mannerisms to Ashley Johnson (its more so the mannerisms than if you compare pictures of them). it makes me wonder if they actually did cast Bella partially based on the similarities, because its really, really striking.

[briantw]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

Did it bother anyone else that the doctor was clearly not performing the operation in a clean room? Last I heard, vaccines can only be created in a clean room. Not that I'd expect Naughty Dog to know the science behind this or anything. Also how the heck would they mass produce something like that, in a broken world?

I mean, that’s probably the cleanest room they’ve got.  It’s the post-apocalypse.  Shit’s fucked. 

[Rippounet]

Pretty solid ending, though there could/should have been a bit more development to reach the trolley-problem stage.

I expected tests to be done, Ellie's blood analysed... etc, with Ellie (and even Joel) being hopeful and starting to make plans in a world free of cordyceps... Before doctors finally realizing that there was no other option... Ellie being ok with it, but Joel not accepting it, snapping and going on a rampage before being shot, and then dying in front of Ellie, who would insult him one last time before his death...

Maybe what I had in mind was a bit classic, and would have been boring, but methinks Ramsey and Pascal could have pulled it off... Nonetheless, I still kinda liked they went down a quicker road - that certainly wasn't boring. However, Joel not dying is imho what raises the ethical issue here. It's not just that he kills a lot of people and lies to Ellie, all for his own benefit (rather than hers), it's also that somehow he gets away with it. Whichever way you look at it, this cannot be a "moral ending." The show established at length that Joel was not a "good guy," and this was confirmed multiple times by his behavior and choices. While he deserves his chance to redeem himself (by protecting, and then saving Ellie), potentially getting some measure of happiness (with a new family) because he is so good at killing and at the expense of the entire human race is at least problematic, and perhaps even mildly unsettling.

[karaddin]

I think the speed at which they jump to harvesting the fungus from Ellie's brain is just one of those relics of gameplay that you just accept. Yeah it doesn't make much real world sense but it does fit causing the emotional response it does in the game, so I roll with it. I understand why others can't.

I think there's a similar thing with the cure - this isn't the real world, they don't have to actually figure out the hard details. The entire point of it is to present Joel with the choice of "Ellie" or "humanity" and see that he doesn't even hesitate for a beat in picking Ellie. The cure not working takes away the impact of this, so for meta story reasons the cure would have worked.

9 hours ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

And again, this completely ignores the other aspect, which is that it is what Ellie wants. My wife pointed out that the ending would be significantly more powerful if Joel asked her directly or Ellie told Joel directly at some point in the past that this is what she wanted - that if given the chance she would sacrifice anything to stop the infection. And Joel just...does what he does anyway. 

They definitely don't make it explicit, but I thought between "I reckon you know why I'm telling you this" "yeah I guess I do" and "this has to have been for something" it's pretty heavily implied what choice she'd make and also that Joel knows it.

I thought they also made it quite clear Ellie knows he's lying and Bella did a great job playing the emotions across her face in response.

[dbunting]

Got tired of reading the 50 posts since it aired so I'm just gonna type instead and read more later.

I would've done what Joel did. I have a daughter and no way I'm letting them kill her under those circumstances, or maybe any.  They do not know for a fact that the procedure is the answer to the cure. They only have a guess that it will. Sorry but her life is worth more than a guess. Check blood, etc.. Hell I'd rather they said we need to get her pregnant to see if her kid is immune also, anything but kill her and hope that the one doctor there guessed correctly. This episode showed us that Marlene knew how Ellie became immune, that fact alone provides hope. They know a mother about to give birth, who gets bitten likely equals an immune child. Doing horrific experiments with this knowledge is no worse than killing Ellie.

However, I do not like that Joel lied to her about it. Had he explained to her that they were going to kill her without knowing if it would have worked, she may not like what he did but at least she would respect him for not lying to her. Which brings me to what I didn't like about this episode. That was a whole new Joel we saw in this episode. I know he was trying to get her out of her funk from the previous attack but turning Joel into a blithering chatterbox who then lies to her was totally out of character.

Side note about The Walking Dead. How Ellie became immune is somewhat how I thought TWD would show a cure, if it ever did. I thought that children born after it all happened would be immune to it, something about having been exposed to it in utero etc... I thought Judith would get bit and wouldn't turn and that would be the aha moment.

[dbunting]

9 hours ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

The fireflies are certainly acting unethically too - but that doesn't mean what Joel did was right. And it ABSOLUTELY doesn't mean that what he did was right with Marlene at the end - where after rescuing Ellie from immediate harm he still makes the choice to execute her despite there being no actual immediate threat. At the point where she's out of immediate danger any ethical value he was performing stops, and it just becomes him being selfish. 

Totally disagree here. Had he let Marlene live the Fireflies would have been hunting them forever, he even told her that right before killing her. Marlene knows about his brother in Wyoming and that is their safe harbor. Ellie would never be safe if Marlene was left alive. Also, going forward they would simply use a long distance shot to kill Joel and just take Ellie instead of trying to be nice about it. There would never be a discussion and choice for Ellie to make, Marlene was just saying this to try to stop Joel.

[Corvinus85]

Considering that the show took the time in the first two episodes to give us a bit of science regarding cordyceps infecting humans, I do wish that the finale would have taken some time in giving us more about Ellie's immunity. For a strong emotional impact, they could have also added the doctor as PoV for 5 minutes, getting all hopeful about finding a cure, and then Joel kills him at the end.

[dbunting]

18 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Considering that the show took the time in the first two episodes to give us a bit of science regarding cordyceps infecting humans, I do wish that the finale would have taken some time in giving us more about Ellie's immunity. For a strong emotional impact, they could have also added the doctor as PoV for 5 minutes, getting all hopeful about finding a cure, and then Joel kills him at the end.

Agree here. I was shocked that the final episode was so short, like 45 min at most? 

[Kalbear]

13 hours ago, dbunting said:

Totally disagree here. Had he let Marlene live the Fireflies would have been hunting them forever, he even told her that right before killing her. Marlene knows about his brother in Wyoming and that is their safe harbor. Ellie would never be safe if Marlene was left alive. Also, going forward they would simply use a long distance shot to kill Joel and just take Ellie instead of trying to be nice about it. There would never be a discussion and choice for Ellie to make, Marlene was just saying this to try to stop Joel.

You're misunderstanding me. 

At the point that Joel executes Marlene she is not an immediate threat. In the show at least no one is coming after Joel right then. Marlene is all that's left. And she puts her gun down. Joel could, at that point, simply wait for Ellie to wake up and talk to her and Marlene. Get Ellie's viewpoint. And then, if Ellie wants, she could sacrifice herself...or she could say fuck that, and THEN Joel could kill Marlene. 

I'm not suggesting that he would spare Marlene - as you say, that'd be stupid, as stupid as Marlene sparing Joel. And it isn't what Joel does. I'm suggesting that again the real problem is that Ellie has no choice here and if Joel actually wanted to give her one then he had the chance...and didn't. Because, again, Joel doesn't care about what Ellie wants. He only cares about what he wants here.

[Quijote Light]

8 minutes ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

You're misunderstanding me. 

At the point that Joel executes Marlene she is not an immediate threat. In the show at least no one is coming after Joel right then. Marlene is all that's left. And she puts her gun down. Joel could, at that point, simply wait for Ellie to wake up and talk to her and Marlene. Get Ellie's viewpoint. And then, if Ellie wants, she could sacrifice herself...or she could say fuck that, and THEN Joel could kill Marlene. 

I'm not suggesting that he would spare Marlene - as you say, that'd be stupid, as stupid as Marlene sparing Joel. And it isn't what Joel does. I'm suggesting that again the real problem is that Ellie has no choice here and if Joel actually wanted to give her one then he had the chance...and didn't. Because, again, Joel doesn't care about what Ellie wants. He only cares about what he wants here.

I don’t think that would work in that moment. Ellie is almost definitely dealing with PTSD, so I don’t think it would be entirely ethical to ask her to make that important of a decision in that state. 

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, Quijote Light said:

I don’t think that would work in that moment. Ellie is almost definitely dealing with PTSD, so I don’t think it would be entirely ethical to ask her to make that important of a decision in that state. 

It's still significantly better than not giving her any choice at all. Also, I don't think that she is suffering from PTSD; while you shouldn't be asking people who just woke up from anesthesia any major questions, there's no sign that she's particularly traumatized by this. This sounds like just another excuse to deny her any choice.