Drogon is a Bad Influence on Daenerys

[Craving Peaches]

I am of the opinion that the process of dragon bonding is a two-way process. As the rider bonds with the dragon, the dragon bonds with the rider. This results in the dragon's 'personality' influencing the rider. In the case of Daenerys and Drogon, this will not be a positive influence. Drogon is notably aggressive and violent and reportedly eats children. These are not desirable traits to share. It is only after riding Drogon for the first time and spending time alone with him that Daenerys decides 'Dragons plant no trees' and to commit to the 'Fire and Blood' route.

Before riding Drogon:

Quote

Get the heads of all the noble houses out of their pyramids on some pretext, Daario had said. The dragon's words are fire and blood. Dany pushed the thought aside. It was not worthy of her.

After riding Drogon:

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No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.

"Fire and Blood," Daenerys told the swaying grass.

Clearly, Drogon is not influencing Daenerys for the better. He is making her a worse person and a worse ruler. Drogon has got to go.

[Victor Newman]

The direwolves are a bad influence on the Stark kids.  The wolf bond goes both ways.  The violent nature of Arya Stark combined with the primal savagery of the direwolf has proven itself to be a recipe for trouble.  Arya is also a bad influence on the direwolf.  Her hate, bitterness, and emotional issues are driving the savage animal into killing for fun.  Both of them have to die for any chance of peace to occur. 

[Craving Peaches]

56 minutes ago, Victor Newman said:

The direwolves are a bad influence on the Stark kids.  The wolf bond goes both ways.  The violent nature of Arya Stark combined with the primal savagery of the direwolf has proven itself to be a recipe for trouble.  Arya is also a bad influence on the direwolf.  Her hate, bitterness, and emotional issues are driving the savage animal into killing for fun.  Both of them have to die for any chance of peace to occur. 

Arya has been separated from Nymeria for most of the entire book and only recently started having dreams from her point of view. And the damage a wolf can do is much less than that of a dragon. And it isn't Arya who is now planning to go 'Fire and Blood' on everyone.

[SeanF]

Dany was too lenient towards her enemies in ADWD.

She needs to display her inner Curtis Le May.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, SeanF said:

Dany was too lenient towards her enemies in ADWD.

She needs to display her inner Curtis Le May.

Yes but she can't just do the same to Westeros, there's no justification for that, and the whole 'plant no trees' thing is not the attitude you want your leader to have when the place has already been wrecked by war and there's a food shortage.

[sweetsunray]

4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Dany was too lenient towards her enemies in ADWD.

She needs to display her inner Curtis Le May.

She was indeed too lenient to those besieging Meereen: who are nothing but clowns on stilts with feathers up their ...

On the other hand, when Drogon appeared and she flies off with him, suddenly the women and children being trampled make no matter to her anymore, and she ends up having a miscarriage in the Dothraki Sea as well as forgetting the name of Hazzea (a child victim of Drogon). She was about to have her peace, which she strived for because of Hazzean albeit at the risk of her own life (though she would never have eaten the locusts herself) and in a sense her dragon identity (personified by Drogon). What brought Drogon from roaming the Dothraki Sea (his Dragonstone) to Meereen? Surely not the "games" of Daznak's Pit itself. He sensed imo that she was with child.

Dany has three dragons she could choose to ride: white Viserion who seems eager to please and bond with anyone with a drop of dragon blood (tame dragon), a wilder fiercer dragon who defends and protects like green Rhaegal (but therefore less likely to bond with anyone, other than perhaps Dany), or black-red dread Drogon (who eats children). Dany also goes through these color phases herself. For example she holds the green egg when she tries to make peace with Viserys and gift him the Dothraki attire, but is fierce enough to defend herself against his viciousness. In Meereen she mostly goes through a white phase. We'll see her go black red for a while now in Essos. I do suspect she'll go through white and green at least once more though in Westeros. 

[Nathan Stark]

The situation with Hazzeah is, though tragic, generally misconstrued in my opinion. Drogon was reported by the girls father to have been attacking a herd of sheep, not Hazzeah specifically. I find it more probable that the child was just in the wrong place at the wrong time, playing amongts a herd of sheep when Drogon attacked. As we have seen, dragons do not neccesarily distinguish between dead humans and other dead animals when eating. However, dragons attacking living humans for food is extremely rare, generally only occuring when they are ordered to do so by their rider. There is a level of nuance here that is overlooked by simply concluding "Drogon eats children." He ate Hazzeah, which may or may not have been intentional, and happened once as far as we are told. 

At the end of the day, dragons are just overpowered animals. Dany calls them her children, but they are more like her pets. It's Dany's responsibility to have her dragons accounted for and trained properly, and she has failed in the second part largely because there are no "how too" manuals on dragon training lying around.

But to address the central premise of this thread's argument, I do not think there is any correlation whatsoever between Dany bonding with Drogon and her choosing "fire and blood" at the end of Dance. That argument ignores the internal conflict Dany faces; to make peace with the slavers or make war with them. The dragons (and Drogon himself specifically) are important because they stand in as representations of Dany's heritage and of her own hotheadedness, but they are not the complete picture. The simple fact is that Danaerys Targaryen was never happy with the peace deal she was forging, and the dragons are contant reminders that she is actively burying her own desire to make war with the slavers. Heck, Drogon wasn't even in Meereen for most of book, and Dany still struggles with the idea of making peace. It's the human heart in conflict with itself that George so loves to focus on. I think Dany chose war before Drogon showed up at Daznak's Pit. Because the entire chapter leading up to his return is basically about Dany's growing anger, bitterness and disgust that she is making a peace deal with the utterly disgusting and pathetic Yunkai. Her reaction could be boiled down to "I'm making peace with these people!?" 

Drogon showing up at best reminded Dany of what she actually wanted, which was fire and blood all along. He did not make Dany change from a peace loving pacifist into a war hungry conqueror. She buried that part of herself to attempt ruling Meereen peacefully, and reconnected with that part of herself by flying away on Drogon at the end of Dance.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Drogon is notably aggressive and violent and reportedly eats children.

Can't really blame the poor creature. Naming a dragon Drogon wasn't exactly the pinnacle of imagination on Dany's part.

[Craving Peaches]

14 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

There is a level of nuance here that is overlooked by simply concluding "Drogon eats children."

I said he reportedly ate children. Even if he didn't, Daenerys believes he did.

But I agree it could be that Daenerys never wanted peace in the first place.

[StarkTullies]

59 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

But to address the central premise of this thread's argument, I do not think there is any correlation whatsoever between Dany bonding with Drogon and her choosing "fire and blood" at the end of Dance.

I agree.  Up until the chapter in the fighting pits and her final chapter in the Dothraki Sea, the only real purpose of Dany's chapters in ADWD were character development setting up Dany's conversion from "Mhysa" to "Mother of Dragons".  Hizdhar, Reznak, Skahaz, the Green Grace, etc. are never journeying to Westeros; their only purpose in the story is their impact on Dany.

In the "will Dany go mad" thread, I said it would cheapen Dany's Meereen storyline if her character development was undone by saying: well, now she's mad.  It would be the same if her personality change is entirely due to riding a dragon: then what was the purpose of all the chapters leading up to it?

Her change came from everything that she went through attempting to calm her inner dragon in favor of peace, the failures that resulted from it, and then fully embracing her "fire and blood" nature.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

 I think Dany chose war before Drogon showed up at Daznak's Pit. Because the entire chapter leading up to his return is basically about Dany's growing anger, bitterness and disgust that she is making a peace deal with the utterly disgusting and pathetic Yunkai. Her reaction could be boiled down to "I'm making peace with these people!?" 

Drogon showing up at best reminded Dany of what she actually wanted, which was fire and blood all along. He did not make Dany change from a peace loving pacifist into a war hungry conqueror. She buried that part of herself to attempt ruling Meereen peacefully, and reconnected with that part of herself by flying away on Drogon at the end of Dance.

Indeed I do see the whole Daznak Pit's chapter as a symbolisation that to make peace with these people, it basically comes down to sacrificing her identity (whichever color of the dragon). To maintain the peace, she would have allowed them to attack and kill Drogon. And this identification of her dragon is also illustrated with Dany seeing her reflection in Drogon's eye (as in her dragon dreams).

In fact, we have witnessed the birth of her dragon identity at her own wedding to Drogo. Her Dothraki guardians and her silver symbolize her tail (whip), fangs or claws (arakh), dragonbone (the bow) and fire (the bow) , her wings (silver) and the scales (Dothraki leather attire). After the HotU, she has grown as a dragon (the ships, cogs, with sails for wings). And then from Astapor onwards she adds more claws and teeth with the Unsullied, Storm Crows, Second Sons. She grows huge and wants to settle and rest, but in doing so, people come for the dragon, and she must curb the danger a dragon poses to people. An imprisoned dragon stops growing. Dany is like a walled in dragon at Meereen, especially wearing her floppy ears (that restrict her movement altogether). She even starts to "shrink" in size, losing some of her claws and teeth (Second Sons turning their cloak) or allows herself to be declawed (hostages) and get some fangs pulled out (murdered Unsullied). She locks it all up, losing her identity more and more, going to the other extreme, when it's not even necessary. 

It's just sad though that the people she initially did it for, the women and children, lose their meaning for her when she flies off from Daznak's Pit. And that she thinks peace altogether is wrong. She created a see-saw for herself: one extreme to another.

[Angel Eyes]

6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Indeed I do see the whole Daznak Pit's chapter as a symbolisation that to make peace with these people, it basically comes down to sacrificing her identity (whichever color of the dragon). To maintain the peace, she would have allowed them to attack and kill Drogon. And this identification of her dragon is also illustrated with Dany seeing her reflection in Drogon's eye (as in her dragon dreams).

In fact, we have witnessed the birth of her dragon identity at her own wedding to Drogo. Her Dothraki guardians and her silver symbolize her tail (whip), fangs or claws (arakh), dragonbone (the bow) and fire (the bow) , her wings (silver) and the scales (Dothraki leather attire). After the HotU, she has grown as a dragon (the ships, cogs, with sails for wings). And then from Astapor onwards she adds more claws and teeth with the Unsullied, Storm Crows, Second Sons. She grows huge and wants to settle and rest, but in doing so, people come for the dragon, and she must curb the danger a dragon poses to people. An imprisoned dragon stops growing. Dany is like a walled in dragon at Meereen, especially wearing her floppy ears (that restrict her movement altogether). She even starts to "shrink" in size, losing some of her claws and teeth (Second Sons turning their cloak) or allows herself to be declawed (hostages) and get some fangs pulled out (murdered Unsullied). She locks it all up, losing her identity more and more, going to the other extreme, when it's not even necessary. 

It's just sad though that the people she initially did it for, the women and children, lose their meaning for her when she flies off from Daznak's Pit. And that she thinks peace altogether is wrong. She created a see-saw for herself: one extreme to another.

So I guess what happens to her in the show is closer than what we thought?

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

Drogon is to Daenerys as Balerion was to Aegon.  Neither dragons were controlling their humans.  It is the Starks who you should worry about.  Rickon is too young and too weak to handle the two-way bond with Shaggydog.  I can just picture Rickon and Shaggy chowing down on human steak in Skagos Island.  Jon Snow will part his mind inside his direwolf in the next book.  Nymeria is too savage for the South and so is Arya. 

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

It is the Starks who you should worry about. 

The Starks don't have massive, flying, fire-breathing WMD stand-ins. They have abnormally large wolves.

Admittedly the actions of Nymeria's wolf pack are a cause for concern as innocents are reportedly being harmed, but the dragons are still clearly a greater potential danger to human life.

[Angel Eyes]

4 minutes ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Jon Snow will part his mind inside his direwolf in the next book.

If we get the next book.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

Just now, Angel Eyes said:

If we get the next book.

Salt in the wounds, my friend.

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

2 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

If we get the next book.

We will. 

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The Starks don't have massive, flying, fire-breathing WMD stand-ins. They have abnormally large wolves.

Admittedly the actions of Nymeria's wolf pack are a cause for concern as innocents are reportedly being harmed, but the dragons are still clearly a greater potential danger to human life.

The dragons are mighty.  They reside at the top of the hierarchy.   They can do (can do, not necessarily do) great damage.  The Starks who can warg and skinchange, however, are the most dangerous creatures on the planet.  What they can do (can do, not necessarily do) is evil.  Having the ability is not necessarily a bad thing, just like having power is not necessarily a bad thing.  Young Daenerys handles her powers very responsibly.  I daresay better than the Starks handle their wolves.  Nymeria is running loose in a place where she doesn't belong because her human discarded her.  Robb's Greywind menaced their hosts, the Freys and attacked a bannerman. 

[Gilbert Green]

2 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

 Drogon was reported by the girls father to have been attacking a herd of sheep, not Hazzeah specifically.

I don't think the girl's father reported any such thing.  Source?

2 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

He ate Hazzeah, which may or may not have been intentional, and happened once as far as we are told.

He eats a girl immediately before leaving the city and flying out into the Dothraki sea; and eats a woman immediately upon returning.

That he draws no distinction between pig and human is not good news.  It is bad news. 

[Nathan Stark]

1 hour ago, Gilbert Green said:

I don't think the girl's father reported any such thing.  Source?

Umm, the book? It's been a minute since I read that specific passage though, so maybe I'm misrembering. My point is it's not especially immediate that Drogon ate Hazzeah intentionally.

1 hour ago, Gilbert Green said:

He eats a girl immediately before leaving the city and flying out into the Dothraki sea; and eats a woman immediately upon returning.

That he draws no distinction between pig and human is not good news.  It is bad news. 

Barcenna was already dead when Drogon ate her. When he starts seeking out live humans as prey, then we can say it's bad news. Until then, it is speculation.