Here's Looking At You, Kid Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 I saw a thread farther down naming Craster as the worst person in the story. The thread is an indirect attack on the Targaryens. I think the thread author was hoping it might fly under the radar. If you are going to attack Craster for his incest then you are required to hold Jaime accountable for his incestuous relationship with his twin sister. What Craster did was done outside the laws of Westeros. Craster's gods accept his offerings and proves they have no problem with it. Craster is not accountable to laws of man nor to Gods. Jaime is worse than Craster because he was cuckolding his king, an act of treason. Not only that, he is guilty of passing off his children as legitimate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 2 minutes ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said: I saw a thread farther down naming Craster as the worst person in the story. The thread is an indirect attack on the Targaryens. I think the thread author was hoping it might fly under the radar. What, is saying incest is disgusting now an attack on the Targaryens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Stark Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 I guess I'm confused as to what the objection here is? Yes, incest is bad. We know this. Jaime and Cersei did treason, true. And Craster had a thing for keeping it all in the family as well. What am I missing here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 What's up with these arguments that just because there are no laws and no police, we shouldn't expect someone to have morals? That's such Moral values don't follow from laws, but from empathy and the recognition that other people and animals are individuals who feel pain and joy and misery and hope, that people aren't just dolls for someone else to do as they please. Just because there's no god or king or police to punish you for being inhumane, it doesn't mean anybody is free to be inhumane. There's a reason why no other Free Folk even wants to associate with him. They all consider him vile for the same reasons that we consider Craster vile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 5 hours ago, sweetsunray said: Moral values don't follow from laws, Yes, as far as I am aware when looking at the development of the law it is the morals that proceed them, the law is created based off the morality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 9 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: What, is saying incest is disgusting now an attack on the Targaryens? No, it is “criticizing” Craster that is an attack because everyone knows he is a Targ. He is a NW bastard born in a time when there were no Starks around but 2 TargAryans. His mother was chased off from Castle Black, the residence of the LC. So LC at that time had knowledge of it. Since Brynden was lost in 252 and Craster, while we don’t know his exact age, isn’t exactly in his 40s it is obvious that the said LC is none other than Brynden. So two TargAryans, one bastard of a NW who hates bastards and would later on go all TargAryan on his relatives, a mother who was chased away at Castle Black, where two TargAryans reside and also the seat of LC, who is one of the said TargAryans. I dunno it almost sounds like that this Craster fella is a TargAryan bastard whose mother was chased off with the knowledge of the TargAryan LC. Ofcourse I’d open a thread full of supporting quotes but there’s a shadow rule that you can’t open such threads on TargAryans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lord of the Crossing Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 Jaime is the main practitioner of incest at the moment. If people are offended by incest then it should be Jaime that they condemn. The reason they don't is because Jaime murdered Aerys and most of the ones doing the bashing are Pro-Stark people. By the way, there is very good theory that their boy, Jon Snow, is a product of incest between Lyanna and her brother Brandon. I don't care if Jaime practices incest or not. He doesn't fall under the Doctrine of Exceptionalism but it doesn't matter. What I hate Jaime for is being Anti-Targaryen. I am Pro-Targaryen and therefore want bad things to happen to Jaime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 15 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said: If people are offended by incest then it should be Jaime that they condemn If people are rightly disgusted by incest they can condemn anyone who practices it, which includes Jaime and Cersei, Craster and the Targaryens. I find them all vile, but what makes the Targaryens particularly unlikable to me in this regard is that they try and justify it with them being superior to others and needing to keep the blood pure. Craster and Jaime make no such excuses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 1 hour ago, The Lord of the Crossing said: Jaime is the main practitioner of incest at the moment. If people are offended by incest then it should be Jaime that they condemn. The reason they don't is because Jaime murdered Aerys and most of the ones doing the bashing are Pro-Stark people. By the way, there is very good theory that their boy, Jon Snow, is a product of incest between Lyanna and her brother Brandon. I don't care if Jaime practices incest or not. He doesn't fall under the Doctrine of Exceptionalism but it doesn't matter. What I hate Jaime for is being Anti-Targaryen. I am Pro-Targaryen and therefore want bad things to happen to Jaime. Lol? Lyanna and Brandon became a very good theory when? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 Just now, Corvo the Crow said: Lol? Lyanna and Brandon became a very good theory when? It's only a good theory in the person with all the alt accounts' mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 1 hour ago, The Lord of the Crossing said: By the way, there is very good theory that their boy, Jon Snow, is a product of incest between Lyanna and her brother Brandon. That’s not a theory. A theory needs more than delusional wishful thinking before they can be called a theory. And yes, there’s some nasty incest in Jon’s genealogy. Sadly for you, he gets it from his daddy’s family, the only big house that systematically engages in the vile and utterly disgusting practice of sibling fucking. As to Jaime & Cersei, yes, it’s just as vile and disgusting but it’s not like there’s shitloads of Lannisters doing it, is it? And as we see in their interactions, there’s a lot of justifying based on ‘oh but Targaryens do it so it’s ok. And I’m not even getting into the possibility that they could be half-Targaryen themselves. Which now, thinking about it, I kind of want to be true… just to see TARGAs’ heads explode when it’s revealed both Jon and Jaime are half-Targaryen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boltons are sick Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 As the author of the thread in question, I would say that I don't really care about incest that much as long as the act is consensual even though I still think it's unnatural. However, rape and abuse are things that are morally wrong and I do think that the fact Craster is doing both of these things to his own daughters makes it worse than if he was doing it to outsiders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 5 minutes ago, boltons are sick said: I don't really care about incest that much as long as the act is consensual even though I still think it's unnatural But it puts the child in danger too because the risk of birth defects is increased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boltons are sick Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: But it puts the child in danger too because the risk of birth defects is increased. It's not like the people back then knew that (I don't recall anyone from ASOIAF commenting on how kids born out of incest have an increased chance of being born with defects), so I don't think we can blame the people for not being aware of the danger. I should have specified that I am talking specifically about people in Westeros because if the people know about the risks and still do it, I would think it's really irresponsible in regards to their children. The only reason why it's looked down upon in their society is because it's unnatural in the eyes of the gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 5 minutes ago, boltons are sick said: It's not like the people back then knew that (I don't recall anyone from ASOIAF commenting on how kids born out of incest have an increased chance of being born with defects), so I don't think we can blame the people for not being aware of the danger. People in the real world though knew at roughly/slightly after the time period the series was set in. Even if not talking about physical defects, people are aware of the Targaryens being prone to madness, it wouldn't be a great leap to conclude the incest is causing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boltons are sick Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: People in the real world though knew at roughly/slightly after the time period the series was set in. Even if not talking about physical defects, people are aware of the Targaryens being prone to madness, it wouldn't be a great leap to conclude the incest is causing it. Personally, I don't really agree that incest is causing Targaryen madness. If you just look at Aerys the Mad King, you will see that at first he was a fairly normal guy who was a bit of a womaniser but wasn't cruel or paranoid. However, after he was betrayed at Duskendale, imprisoned for months and mercilessly abused by the guards, he became rapidly more paranoid that everyone would betray him and his mental health deteriorated significantly and he became vastly more cruel towards his perceived enemies. This wasn't the case before the events at Duskendale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 8 minutes ago, boltons are sick said: Personally, I don't really agree that incest is causing Targaryen madness. If you just look at Aerys the Mad King, you will see that at first he was a fairly normal guy who was a bit of a womaniser but wasn't cruel or paranoid. However, after he was betrayed at Duskendale, imprisoned for months and mercilessly abused by the guards, he became rapidly more paranoid that everyone would betray him and his mental health deteriorated significantly and he became vastly more cruel towards his perceived enemies. This wasn't the case before the events at Duskendale. Are you sure? You may be forgetting a few details about him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 10 minutes ago, boltons are sick said: Personally, I don't really agree that incest is causing Targaryen madness. I am undecided whether incest or magic is the main factor but the point is people in the story could think it was caused by incest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alester Florent Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 On 1/16/2023 at 11:36 PM, Here's Looking At You, Kid said: I saw a thread farther down naming Craster as the worst person in the story. The thread is an indirect attack on the Targaryens. I think the thread author was hoping it might fly under the radar. If you are going to attack Craster for his incest then you are required to hold Jaime accountable for his incestuous relationship with his twin sister. What Craster did was done outside the laws of Westeros. Craster's gods accept his offerings and proves they have no problem with it. Craster is not accountable to laws of man nor to Gods. Jaime is worse than Craster because he was cuckolding his king, an act of treason. Not only that, he is guilty of passing off his children as legitimate. Jaime's incest with Cersei is bad. I don't think anyone woud dispute that, not even him. But there is a colossal difference between having consensual sex with your sister and repeatedly raping your daughters. Obviously. I mean, if you can't see that, there is no hope for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 Just now, kissdbyfire said: Are you sure? You may be forgetting a few details about him. Even before he developed his special relationship with fire he had all these weird ideas which were verging on delusional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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