The Starks deserved to fall.

[kissdbyfire]

21 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Maybe it’s a Russian troll farm.

Sadly for them it’s a very inefficient one!

[kissdbyfire]

15 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Out of interest, how does one contact the mods? PM or email? I read how to do it a while ago but I can't remember.

Three dots on every post, top right hand side. One option is ‘report’. 
Or just DM one directly. 

[LongRider]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Three dots on every post, top right hand side. One option is ‘report’. 
Or just DM one directly. 

Thanks, kiss!

[Springwatch]

Hey! I like seeing the Starks criticised occasionally. Proves we're not a dictatorship. And when it's Jon, it proves that the books aren't totally weirdly biased against females.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

3 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Hey! I like seeing the Starks criticised occasionally. Proves we're not a dictatorship. And when it's Jon, it proves that the books aren't totally weirdly biased against females.

There are valid criticisms of the Starks and Jon. Then there people lying and saying they are monsters.

[Craving Peaches]

28 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Hey! I like seeing the Starks criticised occasionally. Proves we're not a dictatorship. And when it's Jon, it proves that the books aren't totally weirdly biased against females.

I've no problem with valid criticism. It's when I read 'Poor Walder Frey', 'Arya the Psycho' and 'Jon Snow betrayed Westeros' over and over again that it gets wearisome.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Hey! I like seeing the Starks criticised occasionally. Proves we're not a dictatorship. And when it's Jon, it proves that the books aren't totally weirdly biased against females.

There is stuff to fairly criticise.  The sufferings of the peasants at the hands of Robb’s soldiers;  Jon’s treatment of Gilly and her child;  Arya’s killing of Daeron;  one can debate whether or not Jon should have aided Stannis to the extent that he did.

It’s just that much of the criticism is stupid and riddled with bad faith arguments.

[Springwatch]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

It’s just that much of the criticism is stupid and riddled with bad faith arguments.

Annoying, isn't it? But meeting stupidity is the price we pay for being alive. Having high standards just makes it worse.

I feel myself that Dany and Jon were written as a pair, to be compared and criticised in equal measure. Maybe the show changed things, but hardly a significant blow lands on Jon - I've seen good points dismissed as quick as bad ones - whereas with Dany most attention is focused on anything that might foreshadow raging madness. Not what the author meant really.

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Annoying, isn't it? But meeting stupidity is the price we pay for being alive. Having high standards just makes it worse.

I feel myself that Dany and Jon were written as a pair, to be compared and criticised in equal measure. Maybe the show changed things, but hardly a significant blow lands on Jon - I've seen good points dismissed as quick as bad ones - whereas with Dany most attention is focused on anything that might foreshadow raging madness. Not what the author meant really.

The Show poisoned the well, and I agree that Jon and Dany are written as a pair.  At an ethical level, there is little to choose between them.

[James West]

On 1/17/2023 at 6:50 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

The Starks fell and they fell hard.  They lost both parents, their lands, their castle, and their reputation.  The Starks deserved their fall.  Here are some of the reasons:

1. The Starks have never understood the pillars of power.  Ned should have negotiated with Lord Tywin instead of sending an inadequate force to arrest the mountain and name Tywin a criminal.  Robb and Jon also do not have an understanding of power.  Robb betrayed his allies.  Jon was inept at communication and he used his command position to enact revenge on a powerful member of the night's watch.
2. The Starks are unsophisticated.  In the north, they have always ruled by the threat of force.  In the south, they could not do that.  They had to depend on making alliances with politicians like Petyr Baelish and Lord Varys.  It seems to me, Ned considered this an inconvenience.  But that is politics.  The Starks are blunt, unsophisticated, and do not have the skills to navigate politics.  They lacked in the social skills.
3. Robb Stark chose to take the main forces of the north and march them south in rebellion.  Keep in mind, this is the second time the Starks have pulled the north into rebellion.  Both instances over a family matter.  If the Starks were so loved they would not have had to threaten GreatJon.  Roose and Barbrey went along because they had no choice.  Lord Walder had to be negotiated before they would support the Starks.  The one man who went willingly was Karstark, and look how the Starks rewarded him.
4. The Starks put family first.  Catelyn's behavior reflects this.  She kidnaps Tyrion without proof.  She knew what the Lannisters were like.  She knew the consequences to the lives of many and she did it anyway.  All of that bother for one little boy.  She wanted justice for Bran and caused thousands of her own people at the Riverlands to lose their villages, lives, and crops when Tywin retaliated.  Jon Snow betrayed the Night's Watch, for one little girl!  He chose to endanger the only thing standing between the realm and the White Walkers just for the sake of one little sister.  Arya is on a murdering streak to kill everybody who has stood against her family.  She is killing innocents like the insurance man and Dareon on the side to achieve her goals.  Catelyn betrays the men supporting their rebellion when she released their main bargaining chip, Jaime Lannister, for the sake of getting back her daughter. 

There are many more reason why the Starks deserved to fall.  I am counting on you to build the list.  Thanks

Add this

 

[Rosetta Stone]

On 1/17/2023 at 6:50 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

The Starks fell and they fell hard.  They lost both parents, their lands, their castle, and their reputation.  The Starks deserved their fall.  Here are some of the reasons:

1. The Starks have never understood the pillars of power.  Ned should have negotiated with Lord Tywin instead of sending an inadequate force to arrest the mountain and name Tywin a criminal.  Robb and Jon also do not have an understanding of power.  Robb betrayed his allies.  Jon was inept at communication and he used his command position to enact revenge on a powerful member of the night's watch.
2. The Starks are unsophisticated.  In the north, they have always ruled by the threat of force.  In the south, they could not do that.  They had to depend on making alliances with politicians like Petyr Baelish and Lord Varys.  It seems to me, Ned considered this an inconvenience.  But that is politics.  The Starks are blunt, unsophisticated, and do not have the skills to navigate politics.  They lacked in the social skills.
3. Robb Stark chose to take the main forces of the north and march them south in rebellion.  Keep in mind, this is the second time the Starks have pulled the north into rebellion.  Both instances over a family matter.  If the Starks were so loved they would not have had to threaten GreatJon.  Roose and Barbrey went along because they had no choice.  Lord Walder had to be negotiated before they would support the Starks.  The one man who went willingly was Karstark, and look how the Starks rewarded him.
4. The Starks put family first.  Catelyn's behavior reflects this.  She kidnaps Tyrion without proof.  She knew what the Lannisters were like.  She knew the consequences to the lives of many and she did it anyway.  All of that bother for one little boy.  She wanted justice for Bran and caused thousands of her own people at the Riverlands to lose their villages, lives, and crops when Tywin retaliated.  Jon Snow betrayed the Night's Watch, for one little girl!  He chose to endanger the only thing standing between the realm and the White Walkers just for the sake of one little sister.  Arya is on a murdering streak to kill everybody who has stood against her family.  She is killing innocents like the insurance man and Dareon on the side to achieve her goals.  Catelyn betrays the men supporting their rebellion when she released their main bargaining chip, Jaime Lannister, for the sake of getting back her daughter. 

There are many more reason why the Starks deserved to fall.  I am counting on you to build the list.  Thanks

#2 is very good.  The Starks never bothered to consider where power comes from.  They are not a particularly strong house and they should have known the importance of maintaining good relations with guys like Walder Frey and Rickard Karstark.  The Starks are slow. 

[astarkchoice]

4 hours ago, Rosetta Stone said:

#2 is very good.  The Starks never bothered to consider where power comes from.  They are not a particularly strong house and they should have known the importance of maintaining good relations with guys like Walder Frey and Rickard Karstark.  The Starks are slow. 

Huh? Not a strong house?  House stark battered the rest of the north into submission , at books start its arguably the strongest northern  house with its only possible rival (manderlys) sworn to them. Their holdfast is massive and its hot springs make it winter resistant, has one of the norths largest  towns beside it, has at least 2-4 k thousand minor lords/clansmen who will fight for it before we even get into.its significant lands and its own men , cadet houses and houses like bear islands mormont who could never not be loyal to them!

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

8 hours ago, Rosetta Stone said:

#2 is very good.  The Starks never bothered to consider where power comes from.  They are not a particularly strong house and they should have known the importance of maintaining good relations with guys like Walder Frey and Rickard Karstark.  The Starks are slow. 

Not a particularly strong house? What? They are easily the strongest in the North. If Tywin had tried to invade the North instead of fighting Robb in the Riverlands, Tywin’s army would be obliterated. Hell, I’d expect the North to win if the rest of Westeros United and invaded the North. It’d take time for sure, but they couldn’t make the North submit.

[Craving Peaches]

9 hours ago, Rosetta Stone said:

The Starks never bothered to consider where power comes from.  They are not a particularly strong house and they should have known the importance of maintaining good relations with guys like Walder Frey and Rickard Karstark.  The Starks are slow. 

The Targaryens never bothered to consider where power comes from. They are not a particularly strong house and they should have known the importance of not killing all their dragons and maintaining good relations with their vassals. The Targaryens are slow.

[Darth Sidious]

On 1/18/2023 at 4:21 PM, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

I agree. If Ned had been a monster or just rational and told Robert about Cersei, the Starks would probably be fine right now. If Robb hadn’t married Jeyne, there is a small chance Walder doesn’t betray him. If Catelyn handn’t let Jaime go, there is a good chance the RW wouldn’t happen.

The problem with the Starks in ASOIAF, is that compared to the rest of Westerosi nobility, they are actually good people. Flawed but good. And that innate goodness is taken advantage of. When they return in TWoW and ADoS they’ll be merciless and cruel in some cases. And wreak bloody vengeance on those who wronged them.

The Starks always ended up losing because they don’t keep their promises. It’s not because of anything positive. The honorable thing for Robb, if he was really serious, is avoid romantic relations with Jeyne. He knew he was already committed to the Freys. Robb was the farthest thing from honorable.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

1 hour ago, Darth Sidious said:

The Starks always ended up losing because they don’t keep their promises. It’s not because of anything positive. The honorable thing for Robb, if he was really serious, is avoid romantic relations with Jeyne. He knew he was already committed to the Freys. Robb was the farthest thing from honorable.

Robb was a teenager who was emotionally vulnerable when her parents six’s her on him. I don’t blame him for sleeping with her. And then he did the morally right thing by marrying her. While violating his oath wasn’t right, said oath was made through extortion, which you either forget, ignore, or just don’t care about. And if you think violating a marriage pact at all merits slaughter under a sacred cultural law, then there absolutely no hope for you. You are delusional and can’t be helped.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

6 hours ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

Robb was a teenager who was emotionally vulnerable when her parents six’s her on him. I don’t blame him for sleeping with her. And then he did the morally right thing by marrying her. While violating his oath wasn’t right, said oath was made through extortion, which you either forget, ignore, or just don’t care about. And if you think violating a marriage pact at all merits slaughter under a sacred cultural law, then there absolutely no hope for you. You are delusional and can’t be helped.

Not counting that the old weasel would have betrayed Robb anyway even if he had kept his oath to him, the Frey's attitude at Harrenhal just screamed it and GRRM himself confirmed that the Freys would have turned on Robb one way or another. 

[Maegor_the_Cool]

3 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Not counting that the old weasel would have betrayed Robb anyway even if he had kept his oath to him, the Frey's attitude at Harrenhal just screamed it and GRRM himself confirmed that the Freys would have turned on Robb one way or another. 

I figure Walder in that situation may have tried to make sure whichever daughter he married was pregnant, so he could get the north somehow in negotiation with Tywin

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

44 minutes ago, Maegor Targaryen I said:

I figure Walder in that situation may have tried to make sure whichever daughter he married was pregnant, so he could get the north somehow in negotiation with Tywin

I don't think he would ever have done that, which is why he didn't try to force Robb to marry his daughter at the Twins. He wanted to be sure he was in the right ship and to be able of jumping to another one should the war go in someone else's favor. 

Walder only cares about his survival and power.

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

On 1/17/2023 at 6:50 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

The Starks fell and they fell hard.  They lost both parents, their lands, their castle, and their reputation.  The Starks deserved their fall.  Here are some of the reasons:

1. The Starks have never understood the pillars of power.  Ned should have negotiated with Lord Tywin instead of sending an inadequate force to arrest the mountain and name Tywin a criminal.  Robb and Jon also do not have an understanding of power.  Robb betrayed his allies.  Jon was inept at communication and he used his command position to enact revenge on a powerful member of the night's watch.
2. The Starks are unsophisticated.  In the north, they have always ruled by the threat of force.  In the south, they could not do that.  They had to depend on making alliances with politicians like Petyr Baelish and Lord Varys.  It seems to me, Ned considered this an inconvenience.  But that is politics.  The Starks are blunt, unsophisticated, and do not have the skills to navigate politics.  They lacked in the social skills.
3. Robb Stark chose to take the main forces of the north and march them south in rebellion.  Keep in mind, this is the second time the Starks have pulled the north into rebellion.  Both instances over a family matter.  If the Starks were so loved they would not have had to threaten GreatJon.  Roose and Barbrey went along because they had no choice.  Lord Walder had to be negotiated before they would support the Starks.  The one man who went willingly was Karstark, and look how the Starks rewarded him.
4. The Starks put family first.  Catelyn's behavior reflects this.  She kidnaps Tyrion without proof.  She knew what the Lannisters were like.  She knew the consequences to the lives of many and she did it anyway.  All of that bother for one little boy.  She wanted justice for Bran and caused thousands of her own people at the Riverlands to lose their villages, lives, and crops when Tywin retaliated.  Jon Snow betrayed the Night's Watch, for one little girl!  He chose to endanger the only thing standing between the realm and the White Walkers just for the sake of one little sister.  Arya is on a murdering streak to kill everybody who has stood against her family.  She is killing innocents like the insurance man and Dareon on the side to achieve her goals.  Catelyn betrays the men supporting their rebellion when she released their main bargaining chip, Jaime Lannister, for the sake of getting back her daughter. 

There are many more reason why the Starks deserved to fall.  I am counting on you to build the list.  Thanks

Brandon Stark and his band of thugs bursts into the throne room of King Aerys Targaryen and threatens to murder the royal family.  Without proof, without calm dialogue, and showing no respect, the idiot makes threats.