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Which Claim do you support the most?


King Jaehaerys II
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Given that Aegon is who he is claimed to be, his claim is strongest for sure. He is the rightful leader of the dynasty that created the office, unbroken until his father was murdered. After him, Daenerys for the same reasons .If Aegaon is false and Daenerys is gone for some reason, then Stannis is the rightful heir of Robert for sure. But Tommen is on the throne already.

In the end it is a de facto vs de jure issue imo. Right of Conquest vs Succession. Who ever is on the throne when the dust settles is has the best claim. Just like how Robert's Rebellion was treason, but they won, so it wasn't. It's a bit pragmatic and boring, and not really in line with your question, but it's true both in Westeros and in our world imo.

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Pretty much completely agree with Aehole Targaryen above. It’s always been my opinion that the Right of Conquest conquers the Targaryen claim to the throne - as at the end of the day, this is how Aegon the Conqueror became King of Westeros and created the best claim.

In this case, it’s Stannis and if I was a bold and powerful lord, this is who I would back. If Aegon is real, then to be perfectly honest I would say that him and Dany were exiled and thrown out of Westeros by House Baratheon, so if they want to get the rightful claim to the Iron Throne, they need to win it through conquest once again. And only then would they have the strongest claim.

On this basis, you may claim that Tommen has the best claim but he has not conquered anything. Instead, he is unrightfully clinging onto the Iron Throne and we know him to be a bastard.

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None. The Throne is half the woes of Westeros and should be destroyed. The bigger the stakes, the larger the battles.

The land should revert to so small kingdoms, an organisation like the Night Watch, made of volunteers from every place, could deal with most the troubles stirred by so petty lords.

Edited by BalerionTheCat
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On 1/19/2023 at 4:23 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

None. The Throne is half the woes of Westeros and should be destroyed. The bigger the stakes, the larger the battles.

The land should revert to so small kingdoms, an organisation like the Night Watch, made of volunteers from every place, could deal with most the troubles stirred by so petty lords.

I mostly agree with this.  I don't support anyone's claim, because I don't support the Iron Throne.

But assuming the realm stays united and someone needs to sit the Iron Throne, see below for my ranking of the five people actively claiming the Iron Throne (this does not include potential claimants, such as Jon Snow, who haven't actually made a claim).

1.  Tommen Baratheon: The Targaryens have no claim to the throne.  If Aegon I "rightfully" gained the throne by conquest, then they "rightfully" lost the throne by Robert's conquest.  Tommen is Robert's recognized heir... and obviously I know he isn't really the heir because he isn't really Robert's son.  Is it worth more war and death and suffering so Robert's "true" heir (Stannis) can have the throne?  No.  I would have said differently for Joffrey, because Joffrey's Hand Tywin started a genocidal war in his name and Joffrey was a travesty of a human being, but Tywin is dead, the war is over, and Tommen is not a psychopath.  Currently, the small council ruling in Tommen's name is about as decent as you can hope for... but with Varys's manipulations that is not likely to last.

2.  Stannis Baratheon: The "true" rightful claimant of the throne, and better than the other contenders.  If he came to the throne by peace, I think he would be a good king, and he is the "king who cares" by actually trying to deal with the Others and making peace with the Free Folk... even if his motives aren't pure.  I'm not a "Stannis the Mannis" guy, but Stannis isn't terrible either.  Burning septs and godwoods is a major strike against him, but I suspect if he actually gained the throne, he would largely cast Melisandre's influence aside.

3.  Aegon Targaryen:  Frankly I don't care if he is a real Targaryen or not, because (yet again) Targaryens have no claim to the throne.  Varys's stated idea to raise "the perfect king" isn't a bad one... even though I don't think Varys's stated motives are his true motives.  With Cersei's incompetence and Varys's manipulation, I think Aegon can take the throne with minimal bloodshed and be backed by popular demand.  If he was peacetime king (he won't be), I think he would make a good king.

4.  Daenerys Targaryen:  If Dany really wants to help people, she would stay in Slavers Bay.  She has no right to the Iron Throne, and her entitled sense of superior "dragon blood" repulses me.  People say that her dragons can help fight the Others, and maybe they can... but so far she has given zero thought to a threat she doesn't know about and only wants to take what is "rightfully hers" (but isn't).  While she would make a decent queen if she came to the throne peacefully, but she won't, and any means she will use to take the throne (dragons, Dothraki, etc.) will almost certainly ensure she is a tyrant by the time she sits on it.

5.  Euron Greyjoy:  No claim whatsoever, but he is making the claim anyway.  His lack of claim is the least of the reasons why I hate him though, and no elaboration needed why he is the bottom of my list.

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“The Best”, as Alexander the Great put it.

Who sits the Iron Throne matters only insofar as that man or woman is the best to defeat the existential threat posed by the Others.

It makes no odds if that person is a brutal thug.

We can rule out Euron, as he sees himself as an eldritch demigod, and would likely side with the Others;  or else would rule in a similar fashion.  We can rule out Tommen.  Sweet boy though he is, he is simply the puppet of selfish, bad, people.

We can probably rule out Aegon.  He seems all flash and no substance, and his capture of Kings Landing will likely be accompanied by scenes of appalling cruelty, further dividing the Realm.

That leaves any of Jon, and Stannis (who know of the threat) and Dany (who will learn of it).  

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  • 5 weeks later...
On 4/2/2023 at 4:57 AM, StarkTullies said:

Currently, the small council ruling in Tommen's name is about as decent as you can hope for... but with Varys's manipulations that is not likely to last.

You're joking.

On 4/2/2023 at 7:17 AM, SeanF said:

We can probably rule out Aegon.  He seems all flash and no substance, and his capture of Kings Landing will likely be accompanied by scenes of appalling cruelty, further dividing the Realm.

Plus, Aegon's inner circle will consist of some really questionable people...the High Septon, Varys, Arianne, Illyrio, Lemore, Haldon Halfmaester, Jon Connington, the Sand Snakes

It's not a team I would put my faith

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1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

You're joking.

I say "the small council ruling in Tommen's name is about as decent as you can hope for" as a cynic.  I hate Randyll Tarly; he's a despicable man, but capable for his role.  Mace Tyrell is hardly the blubbering fool some people think he is.  I don't know much about Harys Swyft, but he is certainly better than Baelish.  Paxter Redwyne is as good a choice for master of ships as any.

But let's say I don't have much "hope" for decent rulers, so the "best I can hope for" isn't a high bar.  Tommen's small council (post-Cersei) is miles better than his small council under Cersei, or Robert's, or Aerys's.  They may not be great men (certainly not Randyll Tarly), but more competent leaders than most others we've seen recently... and not nearly as malevolent as Varys or Baelish who would let the world burn for their own gain.

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On 4/2/2023 at 11:57 AM, StarkTullies said:

I mostly agree with this.  I don't support anyone's claim, because I don't support the Iron Throne.

1.  Tommen Baratheon: The Targaryens have no claim to the throne.  If Aegon I "rightfully" gained the throne by conquest, then they "rightfully" lost the throne by Robert's conquest. 

Tommen is Robert's recognized heir... and obviously I know he isn't really the heir because he isn't really Robert's son.  Is it worth more war and death and suffering so Robert's "true" heir (Stannis) can have the throne?  No.  I would have said differently for Joffrey, because Joffrey's Hand Tywin started a genocidal war in his name and Joffrey was a travesty of a human being, but Tywin is dead, the war is over, and Tommen is not a psychopath.  Currently, the small council ruling in Tommen's name is about as decent as you can hope for... but with Varys's manipulations that is not likely to last.

 
 

The two situations are not the same: Aegon conquered Westeros and forged Seven Kingdoms into one and created its instutions, while Robert simply killed the Targaryen claimants or forced them into exile, but continued using the same institutions and maintained the same system, a (technically) absolute monarchy.

Besides, the statement that the 'Targaryens have lost their claim the Throne' shouldn't be analyzed out-of-universe, but we should view whether people think it's true in-universe (because that's what matters when it comes to legitimacy) and when we do that, we find out that it certainly isn't true, the Targaryen dynasty has the most legitimacy and Robert orders the assassination of Dany and her unborn child because he considers them a danger to his reign:

He’s not. Robert was never the rightful king either, even Renly said as much. Jaime Lannister murdered the rightful king, after Robert killed his lawful heir on the Trident. Where were the gods then? The gods don’t care about men, no more than kings care about peasants.” 

“MY LORDS!” he shouted, his voice booming off the rafters. “Here is what I say to these two kings!” He spat. “Renly Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither. Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne? What do they know of the Wall or the wolfswood or the barrows of the First Men? Even their gods are wrong. The Others take the Lannisters too, I’ve had a bellyful of them.” He reached back over his shoulder and drew his immense two-handed greatsword. “Why shouldn’t we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead!” He pointed at Robb with the blade. “There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to, m’lords,”he thundered. “The King in the North!”

In-universe we see that Robert's usurpation caused instability and set up the groundwork for the Wo5K: Balon rebelled because Greyjoys have never bent the knee for Baratheons, Robb seceded because his lords thought that they do not owe the same fealty to Baratheons (a regular Westerosi house) than the Targaryens, and Renly followed Robert's example in proclaiming himself King despite having a poor claim.

This instability was further deepened in Tommen's reign, where the Boltons and Freys came to power by despicable means that caused most of their vassals to despise them and plot against them. It's difficult to see how long-term stability (even for 50 years) could be maintained under Baratheon rule (if we ignore the Others), but short-term it's for the best, I agree.

On 4/2/2023 at 11:57 AM, StarkTullies said:

3.  Aegon Targaryen:  Frankly I don't care if he is a real Targaryen or not, because (yet again) Targaryens have no claim to the throne.  Varys's stated idea to raise "the perfect king" isn't a bad one... even though I don't think Varys's stated motives are his true motives.  With Cersei's incompetence and Varys's manipulation, I think Aegon can take the throne with minimal bloodshed and be backed by popular demand.  If he was peacetime king (he won't be), I think he would make a good king.

 
 

He might be able to take the Throne, but would he able to take over Westeros and establish long-term stability? The only two possibilites that might enable it would be a marriage to Sansa - that might bring the support of the Vale and bring the North, the Riverlands and the Vale into the fold - or a marriage to Daenerys and dragons.

On 4/2/2023 at 11:57 AM, StarkTullies said:

4.  Daenerys Targaryen:  If Dany really wants to help people, she would stay in Slavers Bay.  She has no right to the Iron Throne, and her entitled sense of superior "dragon blood" repulses me.  People say that her dragons can help fight the Others, and maybe they can... but so far she has given zero thought to a threat she doesn't know about and only wants to take what is "rightfully hers" (but isn't).  While she would make a decent queen if she came to the throne peacefully, but she won't, and any means she will use to take the throne (dragons, Dothraki, etc.) will almost certainly ensure she is a tyrant by the time she sits on it.

 

What kind of 'superior sense of dragon blood' does Dany possess? It doesn't seem to be that she is looking down on people because she is a Targaryen, the only example of her referring to 'I am blood of the dragon' to finish an argument was with Daario when he proposed a Meereenese Red Wedding to her. She only believes that she is capable of dragon riding and is immune to certain diseases because she is a Targaryen, and this seems to be true to a degree (even if a bit of an overstatement).

Dany's first big problem is her unfamiliarity with Westeros and perhaps her uncomfortability with ruling as a 'queen in silks'. I don't think she could really enjoy it and she might be similar to Robert in this regard, which would cause problems long-term. Her second big problem is her apparent infertility and that she has no plan as regards to her succession.

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Aegon. He's as close to a "rightful heir" in these times of rebels, usurpers and bastards as we're going to get. 

Other than Euron, I don't think I actively dislike any of the current crop of claimant kings except Euron (in contrast to the WotFK) and would ideally see a resolution that allows for Aegon VI while Tommen and Stannis both survive, but I can't see it happening. 

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