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Was Ashara the Most Beautiful Lady in her Time?


Corvo the Crow

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7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't 'stan' anyone. I find the Targaryens' attitude of racial superiority a bigger turn off than whatever the Baratheons have done. True, Robert isn't a great guy, but as far as Renly goes all he's done that's unappealing is be a bit full of himself and made an unkind joke about his niece once.

And the post was mostly about looks anyway. And it was supposed to be humorous.

When have the Targaryen ever had a sense of racial superiority? They have the same sense of superiority as any other high born character in this world. Their looks are talked about by others and desired more than by them. 

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15 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Beauty is subjective…but literally every character who is attracted to men and saw Rhaegar holds him as the standard against whom everyone else seems lesser. I think Danny is supposed to be ~ the female equivalent.

Who is "every character who is attracted to men" though? We don't have that kind of information from every character that is attracted to men. The only ones we know of who had romantic feelings for Rhaegar are Cersei, Jon Con, and Lyanna. We don't know about Elia's feelings for him. As for comparisons for his looks, I only recall Cersei making comparisons. Maybe Jon Con did, and even if he didn't he doubtless believes Rhaegar to be the most beautiful man in his eyes. Are there any more? I genuinely can't recall and can't find any further compliments to his looks.

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8 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

When have the Targaryen ever had a sense of racial superiority? They have the same sense of superiority as any other high born character in this world. Their looks are talked about by others and desired more than by them. 

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The line must be kept pure, Viserys had told her a thousand times; theirs was the kingsblood, the golden blood of old Valyria, the blood of the dragon. Dragons did not mate with the beasts of the field, and Targaryens did not mingle their blood with that of lesser men

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"I am the blood of the dragon," Dany reminded him. "Have you ever seen a dragon with the flux?" Viserys had oft claimed that Targaryens were untroubled by the pestilences that afflicted common men

Daenerys likely got these views from Viserys but she still believes them.

And then you have stuff like 'The Doctrine of Exceptionalism'. That sounds like a fascist wrote it. All nobles in the series are arrogant to some degree, and arrogant about their heritage, but the Targaryens turn it into a race related thing, and most importantly, name others 'lesser'.

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53 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Beauty is subjective…but literally every character who is attracted to men and saw Rhaegar holds him as the standard against whom everyone else seems lesser. I think Danny is supposed to be ~ the female equivalent.

It's funny that Viserys is never described as beautiful, although if we assume that all valyrians are automatically good looking, then I guess it goes without saying.

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1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

When have the Targaryen ever had a sense of racial superiority? They have the same sense of superiority as any other high born character in this world. Their looks are talked about by others and desired more than by them. 

When they fuck their own sisters for instance. They see themselves "not like other men" and "above gods".

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1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Daenerys likely got these views from Viserys but she still believes them.

And then you have stuff like 'The Doctrine of Exceptionalism'. That sounds like a fascist wrote it. All nobles in the series are arrogant to some degree, and arrogant about their heritage, but the Targaryens turn it into a race related thing, and most importantly, name others 'lesser'.

Dany is a racist. No wonder she ended up in a hill in the middle of nowhere.

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Was Ashara the Most Beautiful Lady in her Time?   Oh no.  She was not.  Those physical characteristics known as the "blood of the dragon" puts the Valyrians at the top of the beauty pedestal.  Whoever had the best and most prominent of blood of the dragon traits would be at the top of the pedestal.  Probably Dany's mother, Queen Rhaella Targaryen.  

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26 minutes ago, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

Was Ashara the Most Beautiful Lady in her Time?   Oh no.  She was not.  Those physical characteristics known as the "blood of the dragon" puts the Valyrians at the top of the beauty pedestal.  Whoever had the best and most prominent of blood of the dragon traits would be at the top of the pedestal.  Probably Dany's mother, Queen Rhaella Targaryen.  

Fully disagree. Ashara is stated many times to be beautiful, stunningly so. No other character aside from Dany in the modern story is talked about in that way. Rhaella is barely mentioned at all so I doubt she was on Ashara’s level. It’s a miracle Dany does have a hair lip or something with how inbred she is.

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3 hours ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

Fully disagree. Ashara is stated many times to be beautiful, stunningly so. No other character aside from Dany in the modern story is talked about in that way. Rhaella is barely mentioned at all so I doubt she was on Ashara’s level. It’s a miracle Dany does have a hair lip or something with how inbred she is.

Remember that Dany is only talked about like that because she has power. Otherwise she is only as beautiful as a Lysene bedslave. Even less so, probably, since she comes from the racial supremacist TargAryan family that liked to keep it within the family whereas Lyseni bedslaves are bred to be beautiful and certainly not bred with their own siblings since it would be counterproductive.

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21 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

As the title says.

She has many admirers, even Barristan who wasn't that much into women as evidenced by abdicating his lordship to become a KG loving her. Ned too, coming directly from the mouth of the Nedling. Of all the women there, Cersei, who was supposedly a rising sun(though it's bad info since it's the thoughts of Kevan, a known sucker for all things Tywin) compared to Lyanna, a torch(could it be why Rhaegar chose her, a torch in the impending darkness, burning against the cold?) included, it was her that Howland had noticed and even the Gayjon  wanted to dance with her (could've been due to eyes as purply as his silver prince though). Catelyn, a very beautiful woman herself, remembers her as tall and fair and with haunting eyes and feels insecure, despite hearing the rumors about Jon's parentage only after Ashara's death, and I couldn't blame her, on his wedding night Robert, a known womanizer, had a living, breathing girl and all he could think about was a dead one who didn't even love him.

well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. personally, I think violet eyes and dark hair + a darker skin tone than pale Valyrians is a very unique and attractive combination ...  Howland and Barry certainly think Ashara's the most beautiful woman in Harrenhal . in H's opinion it goes like this: Ashara>Elia>Lyanna.  Kevan thinks about Lyanna , Cersei and Elia and it seems he thinks it goes like Cersei >Lyanna>Elia. meanwhile , Littlefinger must think Cat is the most beautiful woman of their generation!

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14 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I can't take Targaryen 'looks' seriously because they just sound like anime characters. And even if they did look nice their attitude is a complete turn off. Now, the Baratheons on the other hand...

and we are talking about Renly Baratehon I presume? 

14 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

In any case, it is curious that Ashara was admired for her purple eyes when Westeros has had several generations of Targaryen rulers, who also had purple eyes.

most likely the shape of her eyes and her gaze was beautiful. 

come to think of it , Targaryens are never described as the most beautiful people or the most beautiful Valyrians . in fact , in Dance era , Laena nd Laenor Velaryons are described as unbelievably beautiful and they are mixed with Baratheons and Velaryons . then in Blackfyre era Shiera Seastar who is not your typical Valyrian looking woman is supposed to be super hot . and then there's Ashara and finally, Arianne Martell who seems to be George's fantacy. sure , Targs are good looking but they're also rich and powerful which attributes to "beauty" if you ask me! 

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31 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. personally, I think violet eyes and dark hair + a darker skin tone than pale Valyrians is a very unique and attractive combination ...  Howland and Barry certainly think Ashara's the most beautiful woman in Harrenhal . in H's opinion it goes like this: Ashara>Elia>Lyanna.  Kevan thinks about Lyanna , Cersei and Elia and it seems he thinks it goes like Cersei >Lyanna>Elia. meanwhile , Littlefinger must think Cat is the most beautiful woman of their generation!

Beauty and attractiveness aren’t the same though, nor is love. I had plenty of friends that I found as at least somewhat beautiful but weren’t in the least bit attracted to any of them, neither did I have any love for any of them beyond friendship. On the other hand I am myself not a very handsome guy yet found to be quite attractive, and even told this to my face many times. Girls who wouldn’t even respond to advances of guys far more handsome than me would chase after me and in a few instances in the literal sense.

Ashara and Catelyn may not have been attractive to all but they are both beautiful women, Ashara possibly more so than Cat.

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1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Beauty and attractiveness aren’t the same though, nor is love. I had plenty of friends that I found as at least somewhat beautiful but weren’t in the least bit attracted to any of them, neither did I have any love for any of them beyond friendship. On the other hand I am myself not a very handsome guy yet found to be quite attractive, and even told this to my face many times. Girls who wouldn’t even respond to advances of guys far more handsome than me would chase after me and in a few instances in the literal sense.

Ashara and Catelyn may not have been attractive to all but they are both beautiful women, Ashara possibly more so than Cat.

naah, you're right. aesthetic beauty is not necessarily subjective. of course, its rules differ quite a bit for different cultures and time periods. but all we have to measure these characters' beauties and compare them is other characters' subjective views, all of whom have biased opinions and different tastes. so we cannot know if the women described in the books are actually beautiful or if other attractions such as emotional response have influenced our POV characters' judgment. 

p.s. they literally chased you ?!:P

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2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

naah, you're right. aesthetic beauty is not necessarily subjective. of course, its rules differ quite a bit for different cultures and time periods. but all we have to measure these characters' beauties and compare them is other characters' subjective views, all of whom have biased opinions and different tastes. so we cannot know if the women described in the books are actually beautiful or if other attractions such as emotional response have influenced our POV characters' judgment. 

 

Sure, Gayjon may have been attracted to her as she had the same eyes as his silver prince.

2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

p.s. they literally chased you ?!:P

Yes. To be honest I really want to tie most of it to the pandemic lockdowns. Though the city district I live gets plenty of young visitors, majority of the inhabitants are actually on the older side, middle age and above  and during the lockdowns people below 20 were only allowed a few hours outside so there weren't much young people and so I may have been the only young guy they've seen for weeks. I've been followed around, and even searched for in the mall a good many times by giggling shy girls, face flushed with embarassment when their friends whispered something to their ear, looking at me. but has happened several times even before it all.

:rolleyes: Immediately before covid, like 2-3months ago there was a girl in a shop right next to a coffeeshop I used to go and she'd eye me as I passed by if she was in her shop, in a couple of weeks she started to take her coffee breaks when I passed, waiting expectantly in the line next to me, a month or so after this she ran after me when I left the coffee shop so I ran as well :rofl: after that she just stopped looking at me every time I passed by and never again took her breaks when I was there.

I've had worse experiences to be frank and I actually don't mind the act itself  that much but it's the hypocricy of it that disgust me and make me really angry. To confess, one of the reasons of my dislike for Dany and Dany "enthusiasts"  comes from the hypocricy of the enthusiasts and Dany herself. 

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On 1/18/2023 at 3:37 PM, The Commentator said:

Most beautiful of that time period was Rhaella Targaryen.  Ashara was younger but I think Rhaella with her Targaryen looks would win the contest.  

Either way, Ashara was beautiful enough for Barristan to still be in love with her instead of someone from his own youth. Which would be more understandable, in my opinion.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 1/19/2023 at 3:00 PM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Either way, Ashara was beautiful enough for Barristan to still be in love with her instead of someone from his own youth. Which would be more understandable, in my opinion.

For sure.  Yeah.  Ashara was a high level beauty. 

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On 1/18/2023 at 5:16 PM, Craving Peaches said:
Quote

The line must be kept pure, Viserys had told her a thousand times; theirs was the kingsblood, the golden blood of old Valyria, the blood of the dragon. Dragons did not mate with the beasts of the field, and Targaryens did not mingle their blood with that of lesser men

Quote

"I am the blood of the dragon," Dany reminded him. "Have you ever seen a dragon with the flux?" Viserys had oft claimed that Targaryens were untroubled by the pestilences that afflicted common men

Daenerys likely got these views from Viserys but she still believes them.

Likely?? Those are literally Viserys' views you're quoting; she doesn't own them in those quotes. He also told her that he'd be a heroic conqueror, but lost all credibility in the Dothraki sea. That's one undeniably good thing about Dany: she can re-evaluate what she's told.

On beauty - GRRM has a bit of a fantasy vibe going; when he says Targs are beautiful, and every character says the same, I think we just have to accept it. Dany's reputation as the most beautiful has travelled right round the world. There is subjectivity (like Sansa going off Joffrey), but that is rare, in-world. Jon is forced to see Cersei's beauty for example, even though he doesn't like her.

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