Where does all this Stark hate come from?

[SeanF]

9 minutes ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

Jon/Val will happen to some degree. Though I think Val will be dead by the end of the series. I think it’s a distinct possibility that Jon and Dany get together in some form by the end of the series. With so little time I imagine it’ll be purely political. Jon will be the key to the North, and by that time maybe known as the true Targaryen heir, so marrying them together would solve any succession issues.

I think Jon/Mel will be a thing, in TWOW.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

I think Jon/Mel will be a thing, in TWOW.

I hope not. I don't want her draining Jon's lifeforce.

[LongRider]

5 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

To be fair we don't know that much about him.

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I know he was rude to 'Alayne' because she was a bastard, but he could have just been having a bad day. He apologised afterwards.

 

Wasn't it his aunt who told him was being a horse's ass and made him apologize?  Anyway, he's just a dick.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Part of it, I suspect, is that Daenerys is a rare example of a female power fantasy,* which is ruined by the Starks being the “victors” and not her. She is the most powerful, most beautiful, most beloved. Cersei is enough of an outright villain that she can be tolerated, but Sansa is too pretty and well-liked for comfort.  I’m sure some gender studies academic could do a major psychoanalysis of how this reflects female competition and patriarchy and all that good stuff in the real world. 
 

*You see people trying so hard to do this with Rhaenyra too, but Rhaenyra is ultimately a very passive character who hasn’t really earned anything. Daenerys, by contrast, is much more driven and started off as far less privileged.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

One can be both savage and a hero.

Fair enough.

[Angel Eyes]

12 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I've gotta say, for someone so fiercely against incest, you are awfully pro step-siblings marriage.

honestly, Sansa should end up with someone like Ned Dayne, you know?  someone sane (unlike Joffrey), age-appropriate (unlike Tyrion), non-pervert (unlike LF), nontoxic (unlike Hound), nonrelated (unlike Jon), and with a similar worldview (unlike Harry). 

The Hound would also fall in the not age-appropriate bracket; he's older than Tyrion.

Though, since Sansa's own mind is making stuff up to ship herself with him...

[The Bard of Banefort]

13 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

The Hound would also fall in the not age-appropriate bracket; he's older than Tyrion.

Though, since Sansa's own mind is making stuff up to ship herself with him...

I think we just have to accept that GRRM has a thing for age gaps. He’s managed to take so long to finish the series that we’ve reached the point where people are a lot more grossed out by that now than they were in the 90s, but his most recent book (Fire & Blood) was published in 2018 and featured a ton of teen-adult relationships. For the rest of us, it’s just easier to pretend that the kids are older since they read as older anyway.

As for Tyrion, I’m pretty sure that their marriage exists purely to provide a reason for why Littlefinger can’t marry Sansa off to someone else.

[SeanF]

8 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think we just have to accept that GRRM has a thing for age gaps. He’s managed to take so long to finish the series that we’ve reached the point where people are a lot more grossed out by that now than they were in the 90s, but his most recent book (Fire & Blood) was published in 2018 and featured a ton of teen-adult relationships. For the rest of us, it’s just easier to pretend that the kids are older since they read as older anyway.

As for Tyrion, I’m pretty sure that their marriage exists purely to provide a reason for why Littlefinger can’t marry Sansa off to someone else.

Even in the nineties, I think it was unusual for men to be chasing after girls young enough to be their grand-daughters.

Men don’t on the whole, lust after 12 year olds.

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Even in the nineties, I think it was unusual for men to be chasing after girls young enough to be their grand-daughters.

Men don’t on the whole, lust after 12 year olds.

Agree. But I think this age issue is really something Martin really fucked up when he made the main characters far too young. 
 

ETA: I basically ignore the main characters’ ages, as @The Bard of Banefort said. In my head canon they’re all 5 - 7 yrs older. 

[SeanF]

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Agree. But I think this age issue is really something Martin really fucked up when he made the main characters far too young. 
 

ETA: I basically ignore the main characters’ ages, as @The Bard of Banefort said. In my head canon they’re all 5 - 7 yrs older. 

Dany giving blow jobs to Drogo at the age of 13 was a big misstep, IMHO.

It makes sense if the intention is to show her being abused, but not if the intention is to show it as a romance.

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Dany giving blow jobs to Drogo at the age of 13 was a big misstep, IMHO.

It makes sense if the intention is to show her being abused, but not if the intention is to show it as a romance.

Yup. That’s why in my head canon she’s 18 - 20, makes it easier to read. Same for Sansa, Arya and the others. Take Arya, too. It’s not credible that a sheltered & privileged 9 yr old would be able to do all she’s done, even in a fantasy story. Now, a 14 - 16 yr old and it changes everything. I think Martin has commented on this more than once, that he wishes he’d made them older. 

[SeanF]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yup. That’s why in my head canon she’s 18 - 20, makes it easier to read. Same for Sansa, Arya and the others. Take Arya, too. It’s not credible that a sheltered & privileged 9 yr old would be able to do all she’s done, even in a fantasy story. Now, a 14 - 16 yr old and it changes everything. I think Martin has commented on this more than once, that he wishes he’d made them older. 

I think that medieval people did not view childhood as we do.  At the age of 12, boys could be fighting as squires, serving on juries, or being hanged as felons.  Pretty well everyone was working, from the age of about seven, even if some were being educated as well.

Both boys and girls could be married at that age, but consummation was rare before the age of 15 (there are examples to the contrary, like Margaret Beaufort, but they were atypical).  I think that’s what Martin got wrong.

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

I think that medieval people did not view childhood as we do.  At the age of 12, boys could be fighting as squires, serving on juries, or being hanged as felons.  Pretty well everyone was working, from the age of about seven, even if some were being educated as well.

Both boys and girls could be married at that age, but consummation was rare before the age of 15 (there are examples to the contrary, like Margaret Beaufort, but they were atypical).  I think that’s what Martin got wrong.

Yeah, true. I still think these characters are far too young for this story. And I’m pretty certain he has expressed regret at making them too young as well. 

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, true. I still think these characters are far too young for this story. And I’m pretty certain he has expressed regret at making them too young as well. 

ETA: iirc, part of it has to do w/ the time gap that never happened. 

[Angel Eyes]

45 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Dany giving blow jobs to Drogo at the age of 13 was a big misstep, IMHO.

It makes sense if the intention is to show her being abused, but not if the intention is to show it as a romance.

Well the show doesn't skimp on the psychological aspect with Daenerys and Drogo.

 

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think we just have to accept that GRRM has a thing for age gaps. He’s managed to take so long to finish the series that we’ve reached the point where people are a lot more grossed out by that now than they were in the 90s, but his most recent book (Fire & Blood) was published in 2018 and featured a ton of teen-adult relationships. For the rest of us, it’s just easier to pretend that the kids are older since they read as older anyway.

As for Tyrion, I’m pretty sure that their marriage exists purely to provide a reason for why Littlefinger can’t marry Sansa off to someone else.

Knowing Littlefinger he'd probably marry Sansa off to somebody else because he doesn't care about the rules.

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Even in the nineties, I think it was unusual for men to be chasing after girls young enough to be their grand-daughters.

Men don’t on the whole, lust after 12 year olds.

I meant more that people used to be more willing to excuse taboos in fiction. Even ten years ago people were more permissive than they are now. 

[SeanF]

7 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I meant more that people used to be more willing to excuse taboos in fiction. Even ten years ago people were more permissive than they are now. 

I can see that. A generation ago, I think more readers would have seen Tyrion as a bit of a lad.  Now, I think a lot more people are disgusted by him.

I think too, current readers are less tolerant of excusing rape or slavery, even in-universe.

[kissdbyfire]

10 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I can see that. A generation ago, I think more readers would have seen Tyrion as a bit of a lad.  Now, I think a lot more people are disgusted by him.

I think too, current readers are less tolerant of excusing rape or slavery, even in-universe.

Zoomers are gonna save us all from regressivism & lack of empathy. 

[James West]

The Starks are very easy to dislike.  I don't like them.  I give you one of the reasons here: